Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: nstueve on August 27, 2013, 10:26:33 AM
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I found a Shaver 165 for $3800 supposedly never had a fire run in it. I have read some of the mods you can do to it to make it more efficient but the main question is can it heat my house and how long will one charge of oak last???
The house we are buying is 2200 sq ft not including a full basement and a garage 2.5 car garage. Newer windows and doors and new vinyl siding. lots of vaulted ceilings everywhere. located in central Iowa.
Also I'd like to know if I fill it with oak during the AM how long will that charge of fuel last? The wife and I have 40hr work weeks with 8 hr work days... even staggared we'd be looking at 9hours minimum before we recharge the boiler. The house has a 15year old gas furnace currently that runs good but i'd rather have the cheaper wood heat!
Cheers!
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There are many options available to you not far from that price that I would consider many times better than a shaver.
Ridgewood for example is something I carry that I sell locally for 4200 that's far superior to a shaver. Google shaver problems or simply read this forum. Its a nightmare and I assume your getting no warranty so its an all around bad deal. They are very crude and quality control is something not found.
When it comes to the most economical yet good working stoves I look towards ridgewood or perhaps an earth wood furnace. Shaver is one I advise everyone to steer clear of
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Also, it sounds like it would be a little too small for that house. If you want to go as cheap as possible, I would take Scott's advise and look at something like Ridgewood.
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We heat a 3000 ft. home plus dhw in N. Minnesota with a stock 165.....no problems. Expect 16+ hour burns in normal winter weather. Don't let the Shaver haters scare you they are a good basic stove
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I am reading the "I hate my Shaver" thread right now. I am not opposed to a Shaver if I can get this one cheap enough and do the mods myself I really don't care. I am a big DIY guy and will do anything that saves me a decent chunk of $$$. That being said if the mods still leave much to be desired then I can see myself spending more on a good boiler to begin with. I guess the real question is can we determine if the Shaver 165 is sufficient for my needs...???
I'm thinking I only need to heat a little more than the 2200sqft in the main part of the house. The basement has no windows or doors and is completely banked up with dirt on all sides. So the basement will benefit from ground heat and won't need much from the boiler. After talking with a friend I want to send the hot water about 40' underground into the house and >40' inside the house... Through the heat exchanger, then through a side arm unit on the hot water heater, maybe to a kick board unit in the garage (just enough to keep garage above freezing and melt snow off over night), and then back to boiler.
Right now i'm torn between not wanting to spend the extra $2000 on a Central and fixing a Shaver up... Or just buying one thats good to run right away...
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You will get what you pay for either way, is it all worth the time to hack or do you want to be done with it.
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will me hacking on a 165 equal the same quality as a better branded $6500 boiler once the mods are made?
I have time to hack if it will result in something quality but I don't want to continually fix stuff every year if these have chronic problmes. IE: I don't want to buy a ford pinto and have a continual jalopy on my hands.
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Have you looked at any others yet? If not, I would take a look at some others and looks closely at stuff like the welds and build quality. Then go take a look at the Shaver and decide for yourself if you think it will work. I know there is a Ridgewood dealer in south west Wisconsin. Not sure if they have any closer to you. Me and Scott mentioned this brand because the cost is not going to be that much more.
If you go up to the $5000+ range you will get a lot more options.
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I started looking at a few more options... the shaver was local and sold 2nd hand as new so I could pick up without shipping/sales tax to add to the overall cost.
I've heard good and bad on the Shaver and want a 20-30 year boiler if possible. I'm 30 in october and we are buying our first house so I wanted this purchase to be cost effective. Even if I could get a good one for $5K the installation components are still going to cost me another $1200-$1500 for the setup I'm looking at and I don't know if $6500 is in the budget. 2nd hand is fine with me as long as its built to last so I started looking on CL. I didn't find much that is close to me. There was a Taylor in SW WI and this Shaver local. I know 1 winter won't kill us to run the gas but I figured if we'd save money in the long run why not install one right away and have another winters worth of savings.
Right now I'm trying to price out other Brands like Portage & Main, Central, etc...
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Do it once, do it right.
Taylor is another one that's not very highly regarded.
But if your comparing a brand like central to shaver or other top brands there is no comparison. You don't have to take our word for it though, just simply use the forum and google to do some research.
If you truly have to act now, check out earth wood furnace or ridgewood, yes I do carry those and the reason being is there are many folks in your same situation, but to tap into that market I didn't want to sacrifice dependability to make a sell. I have done a lot of leg work trying to find a lower cost unit to expand my market from those who couldn't currently afford a top brand.
Good luck in your search, and also be very leery of any used stoves out there, rarely are they taken out for no reason.
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Around here I see wood furnaces of all sorts being taken out because people from the city with big$$$ move to the country and most of the time will not cut wood to heat. They will tear it out and get rid of a unit for being an eyesore rather than use it.
I have been doing lots of reading on all the boilers but there are so many brands and sizes and most places don't list a price (cough, portage and main)... it's hare to do a numbers comparison on which will suit my needs financially and physically when its not provided.
So what are the drawbacks to the ridgewood and earthwood when I compare to a Portage and Main boiler or a Natures Comfort boiler...
I have narrowed it down to a OWB and not a gasifier... according to some maps I'v looked at I need 50-55 Btu's/ft which would be...
2200 sqft x 52.5 = 115,500 Btu's
38in Side Arm = 11,500
Plus 2 kick boards (1 garage, 1 basement), and a side arm for water heater but not sure how many btu's to add for those three??? 30,000 Btu's???
Sorry if this comes off as asking for all the answers... I'm also kinda using this thread to collect the data for what i need... and if anyone chimes in... thanks!
and thanks for the helps so far all!!!
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Well.... This is getting pretty vast but I will try to help
Let me first say that most btu per square foot ratings are grossly over-estimated. Now in regards to but output, yes there are many furnaces that can produce over 125,000 btu. However those ratings are Max ratings, which essentially means there nearly a useless number. So yes stove a will produce let's say 200kbtu per hour but only if your putting wood in it every 2-3 hours. Most homes under normal winter circumstances will stay warm from 35-55k btu per hour. Further north ya go the more that number will rise but generally speaking its a good place to start. So, as far as btu ratings what's important is how many btu per hour will this stove produce over 12 hours or more. This is where an experienced dealer could take a lot of the guess work out and keep you from racking your brain over information that is sketchy at best.
The same thing goes for furnace coils, another joke in my opinion, folks try to size them based on there btu they think they need. Well first of all the company making the coil has no idea how hot your water is, or how fast the flow of the water is, so once again those numbers aren't reliable.
Now as far as ridgewood vs a portage and main, portage and main is one of the highest priced units, yes they are good, I'd like to sell them here but from my market research I don't think I could sell many based of price. But, in terms for you, ml 36 would likely run you over 8000 for the unit alone. The finish and look of the stove are superior and probably the biggest thing is your buying a brand, also with larger companies there is a greater chance they'll be there down the road to support you. The earth and the ridgewood are both good units, however e design is simpler and somewhat less efficient, were not talking half as much wood as an 8000 dollar stove but let's say 15% more. Just a rough estimate, because being involved with testing of boilers in general the numbers there are a huge misconception as well. Also look at differences in warranties and see which one appeals to you, and then perhaps do enough research or talk to dealers who sell for them and others to see which company they represent stands behind there product the best, if the dealer only sells one brand, your answer may not hold a lot of water haha
I would also warn against the side arm, they allow the water to equal stove temp, and then were relying on a mixing valve to cool the water down before you use it, if the mixing valve sticks, well it's gonna be 180 heading your way. A 20 plate exchanger can make endless amounts of hot water without relying on the convection cycle that the sidearm does, therefore the water can only get to perhaps 135, so there it makes for a safer and simpler install. I dont like the feeling of liability when dealing with sidearms especially when a child could potentially get burned.
Sooooo, yea there is a lot to it, and good information is hard to find.
Hope this helps...
P.s
Also in regards to why the dramatic price increase from let's say a earth to a central? You'd be shocked to find out how much per stove the big companies allow for marketing.
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One of the reasons the Ridgewood is less than others is they use LP tanks for the firebox. I don't see that as a bad thing but some may.
If you do have a Nature's Comfort dealer near you, that would be a good brand to take a look at the welds on for comparison to the Shaver so you can see what they are supposed to look like.
BTW, I don't sell Ridgewood but may consider it sometime in the future.
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One of the reasons the Ridgewood is less than others is they use LP tanks for the firebox. I don't see that as a bad thing but some may.
If you do have a Nature's Comfort dealer near you, that would be a good brand to take a look at the welds on for comparison to the Shaver so you can see what they are supposed to look like.
BTW, I don't sell Ridgewood but may consider it sometime in the future.
Yep RSI it's such a small deal to me I didn't even think to mention it in all my rambling lol
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Only downfall to the lp tank that I have found is when shoving wood in, the end of the wood sometimes catches that little lip towards the back where rounded end cap is welded to tank. If that is the worst thing, I'm in darned good shape. Inside it was like new steel, and when is the last time you've seen a rusted exterior on an lp tank owned by a distributor? And, Craig says it saves the end user approx. $900.
I'm in full agreement on the plate exchanger for previously mentioned reasons, along with the fact that install is MUCH simpler and easier.
nstueve, I can sympathize with the budget. I had planned on building one, but ran out of time. That is when I accidentally tripped across Ridgewood. I did the install myself, after pouring two yards of concrete, machine rental, two buildings and hot water hooked up, I finished up at $5550 all said and done. The local Woodmaster dealer wanted $6200+ tax just for owb. Buildings have never been warmer, and by Christmas this year, it will have paid for itself. Not a drop of propane has been burned since last fall when I lit it. Go for it. You'll never regret spending the $ on a system. But you may regret if you wait for next year. ;D
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Not trying to be an alarmist but has anybody on here seen the news lately, 8 weeks ago Brent crude oil on the world markets was priced at 86 dollars per barrel, yesterday it closed at over 109. With our mostly warmongering government threatening an attack on Syria and the threats from other surrounding nations including Russia and China, anyone not burning wood this year gets no pitty from me. I'm truly sorry that our boilers are not within your budget as I think most will agree on here that PM is a great value but if it is not affordable to you then buy another brand and get it in for your families sake. I will say also that when buying a stove, a new stove will come with a warranty, and service through a dealer, used? choices, choices,choises. do the install right, good pipe etc. the stove can be replaced down the road, you won't want to do the install over again because you cheaped out on it the first time.
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yea after looking at some prices and trying to compair units I started to look at the Earthwood 360. I was trying to compare apples to apples here but that seemed hard to do.
Estimated costs just for units...
The ridgewood 6000 = $3700
Earthwood 360 = $4600
Shaver 165 = $3600
Empyre 250 = $5500
Heatmaster 3000 = $5500
Ok so lets throw out the ones that are too expensive for use after install and shipping costs... Empyre and Heatmaster
Lets also toss the Shaver 165 due to low quality and having to fix stuff.
Leaves us with the ridgewood and Earthwood. Yes there is a $900 difference in price on these however the Earthwood is 235gal vs the Ridgewood at 164gal. Also the Earthwood has the bottom ash pan that I would like to have. I also noticed if you bump to the 7500 Ridgewood the water capacities are almost the same and the price is $100 more for the Earthwood.
If you wanted to compare apples to apples you would want to do the Bear Cub 305 and Ridgewood 6000 which are the same price.
So does someone what to take me through the Ridgewood and Earthwood design differences since that seems to be the way I'm leaning. Also will the smaller Bear Cub and Ridgewood suit my needs?
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Not trying to be an alarmist but has anybody on here seen the news lately, 8 weeks ago Brent crude oil on the world markets was priced at 86 dollars per barrel, yesterday it closed at over 109. With our mostly warmongering government threatening an attack on Syria and the threats from other surrounding nations including Russia and China, anyone not burning wood this year gets no pitty from me. I'm truly sorry that our boilers are not within your budget as I think most will agree on here that PM is a great value but if it is not affordable to you then buy another brand and get it in for your families sake. I will say also that when buying a stove, a new stove will come with a warranty, and service through a dealer, used? choices, choices,choises. do the install right, good pipe etc. the stove can be replaced down the road, you won't want to do the install over again because you cheaped out on it the first time.
Agreed... I don't care for paying on a fuel source I can't control the price on. Also I agree with the install advice b/c I have heard it 10x now to use the "good stuff" on piping and such so I only have to do this once. I'm hoping that 1 boiler will cover me for 20years of use but who knows. I'd like to get it in this winter but it may end up that I will buy the supplies to run the pipe and power to where I need it for a boiler install. I don't know how much LP is going to be left in the tank when we take over the property in 2 weeks but if it;s close to full we might run propane this winter and keep the house cooler than normal. Perhaps if I install all the piping and electrial when we move in then I can wait on the boiler until we can afford a good one next spring. Lots of choices and tons of other things pulling my $$$ out of my pocket for this house to get ready for the winter.
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In my personal opinion, you are on exactly the right track, congratulations on the new home, best of luck and keep up the posts.
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I think you're going the right direction.
Getting away from the gas is the first step.
Step #2 is buying and maintaining your stove. I have no experience with any of these brands but the customers seem
more satisfied with Ridgewood & NC. I've never personally viewed a Shaver but have heard complaints about not being able to keep treatment in them. I think it's due to the stove boiling over a lot, could be wrong.
Keep the treatment in it and clean it regularly. I've witnessed several stoves lasting 20+ years and I've also witnessed
several lasting 5 due to maintenance.
The fellows who have given you input previously are some of the more helpful people on the site.
Listed to their advice wisely.
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Yeah after doing more and more research I think I have settled on a Earth 360... I just need to know how to afford a $5k boiler and all the hookups!
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It's not fun but you will thank yourself in the end.
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I think the 360 will do you a fine job. I imagine it should handle an outbuilding for you in the future, also, if you choose.
I really don't think the bear cub is apples to apples with the Ridgewood other than the price, though. They only recommend the bear cub for small houses, not giving a sq. ft. would make me pull back from trying to heat a house you described in your area. The RW 6000 would handle the house, I'm certain, but that extra 70gal from the 360 leaves you with some extra capacity.
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I think the 360 will do you a fine job. I imagine it should handle an outbuilding for you in the future, also, if you choose.
I really don't think the bear cub is apples to apples with the Ridgewood other than the price, though. They only recommend the bear cub for small houses, not giving a sq. ft. would make me pull back from trying to heat a house you described in your area. The RW 6000 would handle the house, I'm certain, but that extra 70gal from the 360 leaves you with some extra capacity.
Yeah, The extra capacity will be nice and hopefully that will just help hold the house temp over the cold nights. I probably won't be having this heat an out building just due to have the property is set up. 350ft of underground line to the shop sounds like a pain and extra $$$. I have an old double barrel, air to air, wood furnace I'll put in the shop for now... However, I will probably run a couple spare heating units off this set up. Like a heater for the garage and maybe heaters for the upstairs bathrooms depending on how evenly the house heats with the current HVAC system and vaulted ceilings everywhere...
Anyone want to suggest a good garage heater? It is supposedly 22'x28' but I haven't laid a tape to it. It also has a vaulted ceiling that slopes, so ceiling height is 9ft on the short side and 14-16 on the other side... Radiant or another heat exchanger with a fan? I don't need it 70-75 in the garage... just 50-60 maybe if I'm working out there for a while...
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We carry a little small 50,000btu shop heater with built in fan etc that is great for that size shop. We sell them for around $329.00. There pretty quiet compared to most unit heaters
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The shop heater is one of those places that it's ok to cheap out, may I suggest that you look for a cheap or free mobile home furnace, drop a coil in it, use rubber heater hoses to connect to your copper or pex from the boiler and to the coil,this keeps the heater mobile by adding 2 lawnmower wheels to the frame and the squirrel cage blower is far quieter than the off the market fan rads. This is what I do at the shows to dump the heat from my boilers. cheap, mobile and very effective.
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Sometimes its easier to compare firebox size than the ratings different companies put out. If you are looking at a basic furnace without anything to make it more efficient I would say comparing firebox size is fair. I priced a job this week where the competition priced a furnace that was extremely undersized but claimed it was able to do the job. The job included multiple buildings and at least 11 radiant heat zones plus domestic hot water and one forced air system. When you compared furnaces I was pricing a MF10,000 and their unit was smaller than a MF3000 and I was comparable in price. Its a common practice among stove manufactures and dealers to do what it takes to make a sale, just be cautious and do your own research.
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When I built my garage heater, went on eBay and bought a 20x20 hx. Then go to the local heating and cooling place, they'll make you a box to fasten on back of hx, ask if Theo have any old squirrel cage fans around. They gave me one free. Cut a hole in top and fastened fan on top and hung it on the wall. Don't blow fan directly through hx, you want to pressurize it so air flows through the whole coil evenly. Total cost $115 for hx, $20 for tin box, fan free. And a few 2x4's to hang it.
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Let's see if this picture will work, so you can see it.
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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Wow speed that is a sweet looking unit...I Will have to build something like that for may garage. :post:
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Speed I have a question...the valve in the picture..is that to bleed off any air that might get trapped in the line?
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EXACTLY
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Yup, that is the high point in that loop, figured it would be handy. I also have a female/ female fitting for it so I can hook a garden hose on it if I want. I used it to fill that loop after install. I was able to push water back to boiler on both lines by alternating supply and return valves open and closed. Worked good, too, I had no air trapped in that loop when I started it. Looking back, I should have done that on the house side, too, instead of filling loop from return line. But that worked fine also.