Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Electronics => Topic started by: bronco79 on September 26, 2013, 08:44:38 PM
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I have searched n searched n can't find the same issue I have, so here goes... I'm ready to wire thermostat inside my house,i am going w a 2nd thermostat next to old stat. Research says... R- wire of old stat to r-wire of new stat , n then g-wire of old stat to w-wire of new stat. Using jumpers wies. I removed old stat n it runs off of 2 wires ... R-wire (red) and w-wire (white) and there were 3 others wires not being used. I went to the furnace n looked at circuit board n seen the other spots for wires , g being one of the spots where a wire can be connected. Would I hook up the g-wire at my furnace n run it to the w spot on my new stat?
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If its a basic heat pump jumper the r to r and the c to c. I use a Pro5000 Honeywell and I then run the w on the new to the g on the furnace and program the tstat accordingly. But I also run it through a relay so it can not back feed to the old tstat. Sometimes if it back feeds it will kick on your outside unit.
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Hey bronco, my personal cell tower went down and I had no service at home.
Hey. Maybe someone else can way in on this as I've not seen any with only 2 wires. It is my understanding that this is a gas furnace with no outside unit. It's not something I ever see down this way
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Sounds like an old heat only mechanical thermostat or originally was one.
Connect the 3 spare wires to the G, C and R at the furnace.
Then connect the furnace G to thermostat W, and the R to R and the C to C. The C wire isn't needed unless your thermostat needs power to run. If it uses batteries it won't need it but if you do connect it the batteries may only be used as backup power and not go dead.
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Ok thanks Scott it sounds like RSI is on to something that makes sense to me. Yea my set up is just a basement furnace n that's it . My thermostat is powered by batteries so sounds like I don't need c wire. I'll try that wiring set up today n let u guys know how it went. Thanks
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I have a related question. Can I go a "poor mans" route and simply unhook the "W" wire that turns on the heating element? I don't have the funds for extra thermostats (I would need 2, one upstairs and 1 downstairs) but just want to do what is minimum to get the blower to run off the thermostat when it calls for heat. Would that work?
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Also Scott, researching the stove settings , sounds like 170 w a 10 degree differnce is a good place to start ? Should I keep blower 100% open too?
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Wow, I can tell I was sleepy when I wrote that first comment. Didn't read the question well enough. So am I reading this correctly that your old tstat is only using the w and r terminals to run the current heating system? And I assume this is an electric or gas furnace? If its gas it may be using a heat sensor to turn on the fan which could cause an issue when you put in a coil. If you are running the pump 24/7 and the fan never shuts off you will have to install a low voltage 3 way valve.
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Country Boy are you running a multi-zone heat pump system? Or is it a multi-zone gas or oil system without a heat pump?
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Yea its a propane furnace that's running off just the r-wire n w-wire on the thermostat. Should I try the hook like u explained earlier rsi ? Or u think I might have to do a switch
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If its just propane try it like RSI suggested. 9 out of 10 times its going to work well. You will know if you need a zone valve because the fan will not shut off. However if you put the coil in the return then you asking for trouble.
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No coil in the return . Yea I'm gonna give it a shot n see if fan will run off of 2nd stat . If not back to the drawing board. Everyone is very helpful on this forum , its awesome. Can't wait to start the fire !!!! No propane bill this winter
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Thats the best part, watching the oil truck go by my house to the neighbors. :) He hasn't been to my place in 10 years! You should be fine, try not to install the coil right on top of the furnace as well. If you have some room in the plenum a foot or two from the furnace that would be great.
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I'm all resistance electric. No heat pump. No gas. No LP. Ideally, I'd like to get a 2 source thermostat that has the 1st source as just the fan with no heating element, and the second source to be fan plus heating element. For now, I'm hoping that un-hooking the "W" wire will give me the fan only, when the stat calls for "heat."
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Without looking at it I couldn't be 100% sure but it sounds like it should work just fine so long as your existing tstat is activating the g terminal as well.
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Cool. I actually had to install it about 2 ft above furnace . Awesome everything seems to be falling into place just one last hurdle n let the heat fly. I'll let u guys know if the stat wiring worked out. Bout to leave work n go do it so excited
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I would take the wire off the W terminal and move the wire from the G to the W.
I doubt it will run the blower otherwise but wouldn't hurt to try it first before moving the wire..
It depends on the furnaces internal wiring though. Most that I come across don't control the fan from the thermostat unless you select the fan position on the thermostat.
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Steve, RSI n Yoder..... It worked!!!!! T-stat works perfectly. Gonna start the fire this afternoon. Thanks everyone for all the help . ;D
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BAM! Thank you RSI! That did it! You just saved me $100!
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Yep country, that will work on nearly all electric furnaces I've encountered, glad it worked for you!!!!!
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I have the same type tstat deal as country has. My question is, could a man put some type of switch (toggle switch,etc) on the white wire to run the electric furnace normal operation?? Need cheap and easy way for backup, for the wife and kid if Im workin and something happens to the OWB
Thanks
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I wonder - has anyone made a simple solution to this with an OR gate using two 24VAC coil relays? Seems to me it would solve all the world's problems with dual thermostats kicking on the fan. .pdf schematic attached.
Buy two of these relays and a little soldering and you are all set:
http://www.amazon.com/PACKARD-PR290Q-Relay-Coil-Contacts/dp/B0015XK0VA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1382681427&sr=8-2&keywords=24vac+relay (http://www.amazon.com/PACKARD-PR290Q-Relay-Coil-Contacts/dp/B0015XK0VA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1382681427&sr=8-2&keywords=24vac+relay)
Neal
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You guys can try all that extra stuff and if it works for you, then great! My funds are exhausted. I realize it may have been futile, but I showed my wife how to switch the 2 wires if it was necessary. I really don't foresee any situation where it was going to be so cold and I wasn't around to switch it myself. Our lives just don't have me away for long enough for that to be a concern. Maybe it is for you guys. I'm confident she could get the wires switched while on the phone with me if it came down to that.
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my funds are exhuslted to country, thats why I was thinking a simple toggle switch on the W wire, but come to think of it, I already have a screwdriver to put the wire back on!!!!!
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Does anyone know if toggle switch on white wire would work to switch between OWB and normal operation of electric furnace?
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Should work. Just connect the center of the switch to the W terminal and one side to the wire that was on W originally (probably white) and the wire that was on the G terminal to the other side. (probably green)
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What is the benefit of running two T-stats? I've been reading about doing it that way since I started thinking about buying one of these stoves, and I've never really figured out why it's done that way.... I might even have asked about it here before.
I have a White-Rodgers 1F83-261 T-stat for my system ($62 on Amazon) - it's a 2 stage non-programmable with an adjustable differential (and a battery backup). When the wood stove is burning, only the furnace fan kicks on and I have heat. That's Stage 1. IF something happens (fire goes out, pump quits, water leak, whatever) and the temp. on the T-stat is 2* (or wherever you want to set that differential) below where it's set, then the gas portion of the furnace will fire, and I still have heat, which is Stage 2. No switching wires, or turning T-stats on and off, and no unhappy Momma because the house is cold.
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why everyone doesn't just install a 2- stage T-stat?? (I understand some situations are different, and sometimes I'm sure a two T-stat setup is a must. But for the run-of-the-mill, everyday system, I'd think the 2 stage would be much simpler)
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Most i assume have a heat pump system like me and that is 2 stages of heat with the heat pump itself and the eletric strips are back up or 2nd stage. The second stat gives the ability to just run the fan to a set temp.
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Well I looked at my tstat and only have red and white wires running to it. No G and I didnt pull the panel off the furance to see if there is a G lug I can hook up to.
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How old is the furnace? If you have a G terminal in the furnace and no way to run another wire up to the thermostat, you could just put the toggle switch near the furnace instead. Or anywhere that you can run wires to that you prefer would work.
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Its a 72 model trailer, so im assuming its the original. Im gonna pull the panel off in the morning and if I have a G terminal then im gonna go with what you told me earlier. But im gonna bet that the heating elemnts in the furance kick on thru the sequencer
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If it is that old it might have an air temp sensor in the plenum that turns the fan on. If that is how it is set up you will need to add a relay.
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Im not familar with exactly how the air temp sensor works, but my fan kicks on first then the heat elements when everythings satisfied then the elements kick off and fan runs cool down period, dont know if that helps or not
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Then there is a good chance there is a G terminal. When they use the air temp sensor the heat comes on first and when it gets hot enough the blower comes on.
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Ok thanks RSI. Im gonna leave work here in a hour n half and look to see. Gonna try and stay up today and work on finishing puttin it in, I hate swing shift!!
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No G terminal, and I dont see any air temp sensor in the schematics or in the electronics. I have 4 limit switchs, sequencer, transformer, and cooling relay. So now I dont know how Im gonna keep the electric elements from kickin on and get the fan to run??
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Are the heat elements 110 or 220? use a srap on aquastat to interupt the power to the elements and a relay to power the blower.
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There def gonna be 220
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Then you could use the strap on to interupt the TT terminals on the heater and still power up the blower with a relay, not sure if honeywell makes a 220 aquastat.
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An aquastat is not likely going to be able to handle the current of the heating element.
Is there a schematic anywhere on the furnace? You can always use relays to run the fan direct if there is no other way to turn on the blower with the furnace controls.
How many wires are going to the blower motor?
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An aquastat is not likely going to be able to handle the current of the heating element.
Is there a schematic anywhere on the furnace? You can always use relays to run the fan direct if there is no other way to turn on the blower with the furnace controls.
How many wires are going to the blower motor?
The aquastat can be used to interupt the TT wires to the existing relay on the heater
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yes heating elements are 220
yes there is a schematic on the furnace and I have 4 wires on the fan, red, yellow, and 2 purples. the red is hooked to the fuses and one purple to the cooling relay, other 2 are taped off
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Is there a way I can unhook something or jumper over or bug into and run just the fan off the cooling relay?? Cause the fan is the only thing running during the cool down correct?? I have 4 spade thermianls that are not used on my cooling relay.
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The fan probably runs a different speed for cooling. If that speed is ok then no reason not to use it.
You may need to use a relay to make sure you don't backfeed anything.
If you use a DPDT relay with 24v ac coil. You can use the normally closed contacts to connect the coil to the of the cooling relay. This will allow it to operate normally when no power applied to the coil of the new relay.
You would take the wires currently going to the coil on the cooling relay and connect them to the normally closed connection on the new relay.Then run from the common connection to the coil on the cooling relay.You will need to find out what voltage the coil is in the cooling relay and find a source in the furnace to supply it to the normally open contact in the new relay.
Then the new relay coil will be connected to the thermostat W connection and to the C terminal in the furnace. (If you don't have a C then we can figure out where to go with that)
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Also there is a sticker above the schematic that says "This furnace is easily adapted to include air conditioning" On my board where the tstat wires hook up one side is marked "heat" with my red and white wires going to tsat and the other side makred "a/c" with 2 lugs but no wires going to them inside the panel.
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Don't you have A/C?
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not central i used window a/c this summer
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Oh, well then the cooling relay is currently unused? If so, you may be able to just use it without the extra. What voltage is the coil and does it have any wires going to it? If it does, where do they go?
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The cooling relay reads Contact Rating
12AFL 60ALR 125V
6AFL 35ALR 250V
60HZ
It has 2 wires on it and a total of 6 spade terminals. One wire is on #4 and it goes to the sequencer with 120V on it. The other wire is on #5 and it goes to the blower fan and it also has 120V. Both have power and the furnace isnt running.
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What about the coil connections? It may be a separate label. Are the coil connections empty?
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Im not sure what your meaning by the coil? I dont think there is one
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A relay has to have a coil. Is there a part number on the relay?
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took the cooling relay off and this is what was on the other side coil 24V 60CY
91-122000-11000
and on the bottom is A11B
So Im assuming it has a built in coil and it looks like all the spade terminals have been connected once upon a time
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heres a quick paint drawing of the cooling relay and of what I just discovered!!!!
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Where are the two black 24v wires going? Those are the coil wires.
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they come out of the coil and go to the underside of the spade terminals on the side markered 24V coil. Meaning the top side of the spade is able to have a 24V wire hooked on it
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Ok, then you should be able to just run 24v to those connections and the blower should come on. If you run a test wire to it and the fan speed is acceptable then you can wire in the thermostat to run it.
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Ok, so if I unhook my 24V wires going up to the lugs for Tstat now and put one on one terminal and one on the other termianl then the fan should kick on correct??
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No, that won't do anything.
What are the connections labeled where the thermostat is currently connected? Are there any unused connections there?
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it just says heat and red on one screw and white on the other
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You will need to get a wire to the other side of the transformer then. Is that accessible?
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If you can get at the transformer, just run a wire from the output directly to the relay coil. (need two run two wires and connect to each side)
If it works then one will stay and the other will go to the thermostat.
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yes can get to the transformer. I have 2 red wires coming out of it. I put my multimeter on them and get 24V, ran those to the cooling relay and it clciked and buzzed
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Loud buzz? more that one click? It was the two connections labeled 24v?
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clicked when I would make contact, yes this is the side marked 24V with the wires coming from the coil to the spade terminals
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But blower didn't come on?
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nope
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Then I am not sure if it is wired to allow running that relay at the same time as when the main heat is running the blower. You might be better off just adding a relay on the wire that normally powers the fan in heat mode.
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my wires coming out of the transformer are about 6" long then they are wire nutted going down to the seqencer and over to the white wire going to the Tstat. I didnt unhook them at the wire nuts just ran jumpers stright from the coil wires down to the cooling relay on the 24V side. let me wire them so I have just the wires from the transformer going to the cooling relay.
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still no blower, Ran the trans wires straight to the cooling relay and it click and hummed?!?!?
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Can you post a pic of the schematic?
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I unhooked all the wires going to one side of the heat elements. And the fan still runs. left heat elemnts unhooked then unhooked everything on the sequencer but the 24V stuff and the m1 and m2 which go to the fan and it still ran. pulled the wire off m1 on the sequencer, thats coming from the cooling relay and if i touch it to anything that has 120 the fan comes on
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I unhooked all the wires on the cooling relay and put 24V to it and it click when made contact and buzzed!! ive got another relay im gonna try off another furnace
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I GOT IT I GOT IT, apparently my cooling relay was bad on the normally open side, so swapped it out with the one from the other furnace, hooked my wires going to the old relay into the new one on the normally closed side and the fan runs with electric heat, moved the wires onto the normally open side added 24V to the other terminals and bam!!!!! just the fan runs!!!!!! Now going to wire it up like its supposed to be instead of.... trial and error version!!
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Thanks for your help RSI!!
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maybe I missed something. can someone please show a thermostat wiring/color diagram of a o.w.b to a gas furnace with a/c.??
do you need a zone valve & a bypass right before the heat exchanger to keep the water from circulating thru the coil or does the thermostat bring the pump on & off.. ?/
thanks
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Most people have the water circulating through the heat exchanger 24/7 and just turn the fan on and off with the thermostat.
The fan connection is usually the green wire and is the G connection. The W wire is the heat connection. To run the fan for the OWB, you just connect the G wire to the W on the thermostat you are using for the OWB. If you are using two thermostats the RH needs to be connected to both and the C should be if it is on the original. Just using jumper wire between the two thermostats works fine. The G (from furnace side) should be not be connected to both thermostats, only the one for the OWB.
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can you please post a wiring diagram & show the connections.
thanks....