Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: kayakerski on October 21, 2013, 05:40:17 PM
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Hello everyone, I'm new here but I've already read a lot of posts and this seems like a good resource. I hope someone here can help because I really don't have the cash to call a home heating expert into my house.
I have a Central Boiler E-classic 1400 and it is plumbed direct into my oil/hot water furnace. This is also how I heat my domestic hot water. I had the wood boiler installed last year and I'm very happy with it's performance when it's cold out (below 25 degrees). The only issue I'm concerned with is that my oil furnace seems to kick on a lot unless there is an almost constant call for heat. Does anyone else have this issue? It's only when it's warmer than about 25-30 degrees and it only runs for a few minutes.
I already have adjusted the high and low knobs on the oil boiler to 220 and 120, respectively which is as high as I can go on the high and as low as I can go on the low. Now I'm wondering if it's ok to flip the lever on the top of the oil burner and manually shut it off. I've heard there can be problems if you do that but I've also heard that's due to letting the furnace cool off. Is it ok if I still have hot water flowing through the oil furace keeping it warm?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Gregg
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Is your system allowing your old boiler to mix with the wood boiler!? Like is it sharing water or are they separated
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Yes, my water mixes. The supply and return are plumbed directly into my oil boiler without a heat exchanger.
Gregg
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Hmm.... I assume your existing boiler was a pressurized unit!?
I hate seeing them installed this way, it causes potential for a lot more issues
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First of all stay out of the aquastat when you don't know what it does, by what you are saying you are taking the boiler to steam, the low setting is for domestic hot water protection, the high is what the boiler shuts off at, turn it down to 185. A strap on aquastat can be used to kill the burner automatically but you must do it the right way, never take the unit to 220.
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Hmm. What kind of issues? I can't remember if it was pressurized or not. The guy that installed it said the boiler was real old and that's what he recommended. My dealer wasn't much help either. Everything seems to work good to my uneducated eye except the oil burner kicks on more than I think it should.
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Hmm. What kind of issues? I can't remember if it was pressurized or not. The guy that installed it said the boiler was real old and that's what he recommended. My dealer wasn't much help either. Everything seems to work good to my uneducated eye except the oil burner kicks on more than I think it should.
It's just never a good idea to depressurize something that was essentially designed to be ran under pressure. Part of why these old boilers last so long is that they are pressurized and there is no o2 in the system and therefore no rust.
If you woulda separated the 2 using a plate exchanger, the loop from your stove could have ran constantly through it, you could have then used a strap on aquatstat on your old boiler "linked to a small pump" that would circulate water through the plate when the water in your existing boiler began to cool
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I'm gonna go down and look at the aquastat closer. Maybe I described that part wrong. It was my understanding that turning the high knob up to 220 makes it so the oil burner won't kick on until the water reaches 220 (which it never does) and turning the low down to 120 makes it so the burner doesn't kick on unless the water goes below 120 (which it also never does). My preexisting settings were 180 for high and 160 for low. Am I explaining that right?
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heed slims advice on this one..you are gonna hurt yourself!
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I'm gonna go down and look at the aquastat closer. Maybe I described that part wrong. It was my understanding that turning the high knob up to 220 makes it so the oil burner won't kick on until the water reaches 220 (which it never does) and turning the low down to 120 makes it so the burner doesn't kick on unless the water goes below 120 (which it also never does). My preexisting settings were 180 for high and 160 for low. Am I explaining that right?
No.... It should be like it kicks on at 160 and off at 180, but I'm no oil boiler expert.... It's hard telling
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First of all stay out of the aquastat when you don't know what it does, by what you are saying you are taking the boiler to steam, the low setting is for domestic hot water protection, the high is what the boiler shuts off at, turn it down to 185. A strap on aquastat can be used to kill the burner automatically but you must do it the right way, never take the unit to 220.
I agree with slim jim I was going to say the same thing set the aquastat back to 180. your boiler now trying to reach 220 and your wood boiler is only going to 170-185 or so I am guessing......we hooked up my father enlaws boiler like mine up the same way you did but our boilers are pressurized like the oil burner boiler....
kelly
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Yes! I can understand maybe setting the aquastat so the oil furnace doesn't kick on until water cools to 120 but why touch the high setting to kick it off at 220. It NEVER gets nearly that high BTW. I guess I'll change my settings back.
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Ok, the temp gage on the boiler only goes to 190 even with h=220. I turned the h setting back to 180 like it was when I had only the oil furnace. Then when I turned the L up to 160 from 120, the oil burner fired up. Is it ok to keep that setting low?
Thanks for all the comments!
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What temp does water boil at?
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Ok, the temp gage on the boiler only goes to 190 even with h=220. I turned the h setting back to 180 like it was when I had only the oil furnace. Then when I turned the L up to 160 from 120, the oil burner fired up. Is it ok to keep that setting low?
Thanks for all the comments!
try turning your high down below 180. how far can it go down? that way it don't kick on because the water temp will be at 180 unless your temp drops down below your high temp setting on oil boiler. it wont kick on
kelly
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Never shut off the boiler switch..If you do that your oil boiler wont function ie:pumps.. I would set the the settings at the oil boiler 160 high and 140 low..If your OWB boiler is set at 180 for example..Your oil beckett burner will never turn on..Cause you pumping in 180ishF water from the OWB..Your oil boiler will only turn on when your oil boiler reaches a low of 140F for example you lost your fire in the OWB...Make sure you keep your water specs up..Only saying that cause you are exposing all of your heating plumbing to the atmosphere, since you did a direct hook up..
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Any break on rise aquastat can be used to kill the burner circuit on the oil boiler, simply use the break on rise aquastat to monitor incoming wood boiler line use R+B terminals to interupt the B-1wire on the aquastat, reset the oil boiler aquastat to 185-160 where it should be and let the electronics work.
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If its an older burner flipping the little switch shouldn't hurt it, mine is hooked up the same as yours and I have a switch between the burner and aquastat to shut the burner off. Put the high temp back to 180 or lower (220 will make steam), and yes lowering the cut in will stop some of the cycling. Slimjim's suggestion will work as well.
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The Idea of using the second aquastat is that when the wood boiler goes down ( you run out of wood) the oil boiler will return automatically to it's normal functions, some homes in very cold weather do not have enough radiation in them to heat the home properly at 160 degrees.
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Slimjim,
Water boils at 212F at my house. I assume you asked that in response to my statement saying that the temp gage on my oil furnace only goes to 190F? I meant that the gage reads 190, meaning that it never reaches the 220f that tha aquastat is set to shut off at and not that 190F is the mechanical limit of the gage. Maybe the aquastat needs replacing?
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Shoot, I'm still getting used to this forum and missed page 2 of all of your responses. I think you all have helped alot! I'll have to wait until later to thoroughly read through everything. The idea of setting L=140, H=160 sounds good to me but I want to look into what slim said about letting the electronics do the work.
Thanks again guys, I wish my CB dealer was as helpful.
Gregg
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Ok so the way I see it is my first SAFE option is to set L=140 H=160 and see if I can effectively heat the house that way. If that doesn't work then I should try a break on rise aquastat.
I'm assuming that my house may not heat too well with the 160f water temp due to the fact that my house was built in 1860, is not insulated well and is 3300 sq ft. (Probably too much sq ft for my boiler but thats what they sold me). Also, my supply and return lines are 160' (110' of thermopex and 50' of white indoor pex with pipe insulation on it).
I will also make sure I keep a close eye on my water testing since I have an open system.
Gregg
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Ok so the way I see it is my first SAFE option is to set L=140 H=160 and see if I can effectively heat the house that way. If that doesn't work then I should try a break on rise aquastat.
I'm assuming that my house may not heat too well with the 160f water temp due to the fact that my house was built in 1860, is not insulated well and is 3300 sq ft. (Probably too much sq ft for my boiler but thats what they sold me). Also, my supply and return lines are 160' (110' of thermopex and 50' of white indoor pex with pipe insulation on it).
I will also make sure I keep a close eye on my water testing since I have an open system.
Gregg
Hope your dealer didn't sell you a 007 Taco to boot!?
What pump do you run, seems most central installs I've seen had 007 no matter what the job was
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I believe it's a 009 and I think I was told that it should be bigger than that. The dealer was not super helpful but theyre only 3 miles away.
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I have a similar setup to yours Kayakerski ( just propane). Here is what happened with mine. When the boiler kicked on because one of your zones called for hear there is a slug of cold water that hits the boiler before it goes threw the plate exchager. So that water is cold and it calls for heat so your oil lights up. After a minute or so all of the water has run threw the plate X and when it gets to the boiler it is now heated so their is no more demand for heat. Oil shuts off and you know the rest. The reason this only happens when there is not alot of demand is because the time between the pumps kickin on give the water in the line( boiler side) time to cool off. IDK if this is what is happening to you but it sounds similar to what happened to me. I just turn my propane compleatley off (pilot and all) when the OWF is running.
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12V,
That's sort of what I believe happens. It seems like there is a lag when there is a call for heat so the oil furnace runs for a few minutes.
Thats kind of what prompted this thread. I want to find a way to safely stop the oil furnace from kicking on under these conditions. It seems like I'm on the right path now and I also got alot of good info on other issues.
Gregg
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K. is there any reason you cant just shut the valve off to the oil, pilot and all thats what I did.
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I guess I can but I dont think its good for the older oil furnaces when you do that, from what I've heard. I don't know if the heat from the OWB water running through the oil furnace is enough to keep it safe or if the burner needs to fire. In any case, I would rather have the oil furnace ready to go when the water gets cool (fire burns out in OWB), just in case.
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I re-read some of this post. Why no plate X?
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I assume you mean a heat exchanger? My installer set it up this way.
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Ok so the way I see it is my first SAFE option is to set L=140 H=160 and see if I can effectively heat the house that way. If that doesn't work then I should try a break on rise aquastat.
I'm assuming that my house may not heat too well with the 160f water temp due to the fact that my house was built in 1860, is not insulated well and is 3300 sq ft. (Probably too much sq ft for my boiler but thats what they sold me). Also, my supply and return lines are 160' (110' of thermopex and 50' of white indoor pex with pipe insulation on it).
I will also make sure I keep a close eye on my water testing since I have an open system.
Gregg
Hope your dealer didn't sell you a 007 Taco to boot!?
What pump do you run, seems most central installs I've seen had 007 no matter what the job was
Not sure what the specs on an 009 are off the top of my head, but that might be part of the problem. I have a near identical house but only a 40ft run and run an taco OOR which I think is close to an 009, an 007 wasn't quite enough. You plan for the aquastat temps seams to be right now.
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Thanks Trint!
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Ok so the way I see it is my first SAFE option is to set L=140 H=160 and see if I can effectively heat the house that way. If that doesn't work then I should try a break on rise aquastat.
I'm assuming that my house may not heat too well with the 160f water temp due to the fact that my house was built in 1860, is not insulated well and is 3300 sq ft. (Probably too much sq ft for my boiler but thats what they sold me). Also, my supply and return lines are 160' (110' of thermopex and 50' of white indoor pex with pipe insulation on it).
I will also make sure I keep a close eye on my water testing since I have an open system.
Gregg
I dont think you understand the setting on your oil boiler with the high and low setting... Your not heating your house with 160F..Your heating your house with whatever temp you have your OWB water set at..The high/ low settings are for when you burn oil...The OWB "tricks" the oil boiler by not coming on cause your already have heated water being pumped in.. If you had your high setting at 200F and your low at 180F,and if you had your OWB set at 170..Yes the oil will come on till its satisfied. If you have the high set @ 160 for example..And you run your OWB at 180..Your oil will never kick on..
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Gregg,
I too have the e-classic 1400 out door wood fired boiler (OWB). I'm starting my 3rd season heating my 3000sqft home plus domestic hot water (DHW). Your and my homes are nearly the same age. I'm rather confident that mine was built in the 1840's due to some of the construction techniques that were used as well as the type of nail that was used. I have no problem whatsoever heating my home at a comfortable 72/73 degrees. Once I fire her up and turn on the thermostats I don't touch them. Some folks turn theirs down at night or during the daylight hours when they are not home but I leave mine alone. It's great to get out of bed in the middle of the night to use the john and not shiver while sitting there waiting for nature to takes it's course and to arrive home from work on a cold winter late afternoon to nice warm house. For the past 2 seasons I burned around 5 and 1/2 to 6 cord of wood.
Take it from me, be sure that you keep open the air holes that they mention in the owners manual. It is imperative that they remain clear of any obstruction if you don't want the to fire to snuff out in the middle of the night when it's 15 degrees with a 15 MPH north wind (don't ask me how I know). Also, every couple of weeks I scape those out to clear them of any creosote build up that may occur simply due to the idle time between cycles. I have a special tool that I made to clear them; it's a screw driver bent to not quite 90 degrees that wasn't worth anything. It works great to scrape them. It goes without saying that you'll have to remove any hot coals or unburned firewood from the fire box. I put the hot coals in a metal bucket to reuse when I'm done cleaning the firebox and ready to rekindle the fire. It saves time not having to get a bed of coals re-established. Also, keep an eye on the elbows in the air box in the rear (well that's where it is located on mine) to clear it of any creosote build up. Some will collect in there and I clear mine once a month. It only takes a few minutes. Also, don't forget the reaction chamber. I clear mine every Saturday morning. Again, less than a five minute job. Be watchful of the temperature probe that hangs down. You don't want to break it.
Over all I think you'll enjoy the unit and how little wood it uses to heat so much space. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to post them on here or PM me, I'll be happy to do what I can for a fellow OWB owner. And, last but not least, enjoy NOT hearing the oil furnace running. It took me about 5...minutes to get used to it. Roger
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Matty, I understand what you mean. I was referring to what slimjim said but I got it wrong. I believe he meant that in the event that the owb temp goes below 160 and the oil burner kicks on, it may not be enough to properly heat my home.
Gregg
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Roger,
Thanks for the tips. This is my second season so I've already learned most of them (some the hard way). My biggest issues last year were due to bridging and a bypass door issue.
The bridging issue was very frustating but I learned from it so it's all good.
The bypass door was a different story. I loaded the boiler up with wood at 5pm on a -20f night and when I pulled the lever to shut the door, nothing happened!! The fire was already roaring by that time. Luckily I ran down to the CB dealer and they provided me with an exploded view of that side of the boiler so I could take it apart. They didnt have anyone available to help me until morning.
Long story short, there is only one nut that holds the two threaded rods together that operate the door and it had unthreaded itself. It was a 15 minute fix once I got going.
So far I'm very happy with the boiler....happier than burning 1500 gallons of fuel oil! I used about 14 cords last year but it was on the stump in July so it wasn't nearly seasoned enough.
Oh yeah, My owners manual didn't mention cleaning the primary air elbow either. I didn't know I needed to maintain it until last week when I was going through my paperwork and found the info on an additional paper. My primary air elbow was over 2/3 blocked with creasote! Although I'm sure it affected performance, the stove seemed to work fine up until shutdown last spring.
Gregg
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Ok, the L=140, H=160 isn't helping me.
This morning I heard the oil burner kick on so I went downstairs and the temp gage read 170 and the burner was still on. It went up to about 188 and then dropped down to 160 (call for heat I assume). The burner ran the whole time (maybe 15 minutes- longer than ever before to my knowledge). The owb temp was at 180 when I went outside a few minutes later.
Any ideas? Will a break on rise aquastat help? Do I need to look at my owb circulator pump size? Why is the oil burner on even after the temp rises above the high setpoint?
WillieG, I still need to get my btu info for you.
Thanks all!
Gregg
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You have it right.
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The break on rise aquastat should fix that, I wonder it your boiler one is working right though? If its set for 160 high the burner shouldn't run above that temp unless the thermometer is wrong.
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That's what I'm wondering. I already know that when it was set to L=120, H=220 the temp gage on the oil furnace never came close to 220 . It went up to around 190.
(I still cant figure out why the owb install guy had me use those settings!?! Maybe I transposed them? Would L set to highest and H set to lowest effectively keep the burner from working?)
Gregg
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No on the settings, yes on the strap on aquastat, I believe that your aquastat sensor is not reading properly because it is in an air pocket, the boiler and all heat zones will need to be purged of air, this is exactly why the system should stay as a closed loop and pressurized.
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I have a related question that was brought up in this thread, as far as hook up. I had no part in installing my owb and connections to the oil boiler, and I am still trying to figure everything out. I am getting ready to light up for my second season...other then a few mistakes first season went ok.
My OWB is hooked directly into the oil boiler. It appears though, they at one time had it hooked via a exchange plate...since there is one mounted to the wall 6' from boiler. I dont mind the direct hook up, but I want to make sure it is installed properly
Unfortunately I cant remember which was hot temp gauge from running it last year. So I am assuming which pipe is which. I just find it weird the one pipe (assuming hot from OWB) never really enters the boiler. It appears to me the should have piped it into the other connection on top of the boiler.
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Typically from what I see is the supply from the oil boiler is coming into the supply port or tee on the top and the return is coming from the bottom, find out which is which and then we can go from there.
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from diagrams I've seen , yes that is how it is supposed to be. And I am pretty sure that is how it is here. My main question was whether the T above my boiler ok? Or should the water from the OWB be going into the boiler, and then back out to house elements?
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I have a related question that was brought up in this thread, as far as hook up. I had no part in installing my owb and connections to the oil boiler, and I am still trying to figure everything out. I am getting ready to light up for my second season...other then a few mistakes first season went ok.
My OWB is hooked directly into the oil boiler. It appears though, they at one time had it hooked via a exchange plate...since there is one mounted to the wall 6' from boiler. I dont mind the direct hook up, but I want to make sure it is installed properly
Unfortunately I cant remember which was hot temp gauge from running it last year. So I am assuming which pipe is which. I just find it weird the one pipe (assuming hot from OWB) never really enters the boiler. It appears to me the should have piped it into the other connection on top of the boiler.
Ive never seen a tee hook up like that for the supply..Anyway of posting pics of the whole boiler itself?...Im directly hooked up as well..Hot water should be the top inlet and cold/return to owb, the bottom..
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Oil boiler pics
One house return on bottom left side. Another house return on bottom left rear. OWB return on bottom right rear
One supply going out of boiler with T from OWB
Both OWB lines have manual valves
PS- He has oil boiler's thermostat connected by a phone jack. I was told to unplug that when running OWB to prevent boiler from kicking on
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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Tree Killer, look at the circ on the left side of your oil boiler is that the wood boiler loop, if so which way is it flowing, there will be an arrow on the side of the circ or the circ always pumps from the lump on the back to the skinny side, as far as unplugging the phone jack, all it does is break connection on the TT terminals at the burner, not a bad way to do it but it is not automatic and can be made automatic with the addition of another in line aquastat as I keep mentioning, the benefit of doing this is that if you ever have to leave in an emergency or just want to be gone for a few days the oil boiler will kick back on and maintain the system at it's normal operating temp automatically when the wood boiler runs out of fuel.
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Yup, As soon as funds allow I am getting the aquastat you mentioned Slimjim. Last night I had L=as low as it can go and H=120 and the burner still kicked on. In addition I guess I should have my system purged first since I need to replace a pressure relief valve anyway . I did notice I have 2 cold radiators(my radiators have bleeders on them). Is the relief valve and purging something any mechanically inclined person can handle?
Of course this will all need to wait a bit since while I was down there last night I found a cracked cast iron sewer line..... I love old houses!
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I have a related question that was brought up in this thread, as far as hook up. I had no part in installing my owb and connections to the oil boiler, and I am still trying to figure everything out. I am getting ready to light up for my second season...other then a few mistakes first season went ok.
My OWB is hooked directly into the oil boiler. It appears though, they at one time had it hooked via a exchange plate...since there is one mounted to the wall 6' from boiler. I dont mind the direct hook up, but I want to make sure it is installed properly
Unfortunately I cant remember which was hot temp gauge from running it last year. So I am assuming which pipe is which. I just find it weird the one pipe (assuming hot from OWB) never really enters the boiler. It appears to me the should have piped it into the other connection on top of the boiler.
Ive never seen a tee hook up like that for the supply..Anyway of posting pics of the whole boiler itself?...Im directly hooked up as well..Hot water should be the top inlet and cold/return to owb, the bottom..
My owb supply goes into the bottom and returns from the top. I've heard people support each way. Why bring the hot water in the top Matty?
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but it is not automatic and can be made automatic with the addition of another in line aquastat as I keep mentioning, the benefit of doing this is that if you ever have to leave in an emergency or just want to be gone for a few days the oil boiler will kick back on and maintain the system at it's normal operating temp automatically when the wood boiler runs out of fuel.
Can you post a pic of this setup/connection?
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I have a related question that was brought up in this thread, as far as hook up. I had no part in installing my owb and connections to the oil boiler, and I am still trying to figure everything out. I am getting ready to light up for my second season...other then a few mistakes first season went ok.
My OWB is hooked directly into the oil boiler. It appears though, they at one time had it hooked via a exchange plate...since there is one mounted to the wall 6' from boiler. I dont mind the direct hook up, but I want to make sure it is installed properly
Unfortunately I cant remember which was hot temp gauge from running it last year. So I am assuming which pipe is which. I just find it weird the one pipe (assuming hot from OWB) never really enters the boiler. It appears to me the should have piped it into the other connection on top of the boiler.
Ive never seen a tee hook up like that for the supply..Anyway of posting pics of the whole boiler itself?...Im directly hooked up as well..Hot water should be the top inlet and cold/return to owb, the bottom..
My owb supply goes into the bottom and returns from the top. I've heard people support each way. Why bring the hot water in the top Matty?
Well see the pump on the oil boiler pulls all the cold water in the radiators to the bottom of the oil boiler, That water is pretty cold if it hasn't run in awhile.. So if you have your hot 180F from the out door boiler pumping to the bottom.. Your actually cooling your water down before it even goes through your radiators.. If you had the return on the bottom, your outdoor wood boiler pump will pull the cooled water straight out to the OWB.. You bring the hot in the top your oil boiler pump will push that 180F water straight in.. Couple of years ago my buddy had to switch it the way I have it..
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So it sounds like that could be part of my problem? The owb supply is coming in on the bottom, mixing with the cool water coming out of the radiators. This makes sense because I mainly have this problem when the weather is mild and the water is not circulating through the house as much.
It seems to me that my plan of attack should be to get a break on rise aquastat to put in my owb supply line when I switch the supply to the top. Then purge everything before I replace the oil burner aquastat if needed. I think temp gages on supplyand returns would be nice too.
Question. I understand I need to instal the aquastat in copper or black iron so how much black iron do I need? Does it just get installed in a T a few inches before the owb supply goes into the top of my oil boiler?
Thanks!
Gregg
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No it installs by strapping it onto the outside of the pipe and needs about 6 inces.
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KAY, I HAVE OIL FIRED HOT WATER HEAT BUT THE WATER NEVER MIXES, I HAVE A THERMOSTAT FOR EACH FURNACE. I TURN THE OIL BURNER THERMOSTAT WAY DOWN AND HAVE A RELAY THAT RUNS THE HOT WATER THROUGH MY hx AND THROUGH THE HOUSE. WORKS GREAT.
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KAY I think you are missing the point, AUTOMTATIC and MAINTAINS the set temp using one thermostat.
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Heres a pic where my aquastat is located
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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Heres a pic where my aquastat is located
and the thermostat wire from the aquastat connects too? the TT of boiler?
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It can be used to interupt either the TT wire on the burner control or the burner power wire AKA B-1, I personally use B-1 in most cases.
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Heres a pic where my aquastat is located
and the thermostat wire from the aquastat connects too? the TT of boiler?
The wire connects to the control box of the oil boiler.. So if my water gets over 200f.. It automatically bypasses the box and turns the upstairs heat on and dumps the heat