Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: brandontravis on December 02, 2013, 06:40:52 PM
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what are the differences between sidearm and plate exchanger, which is the best and if they are used together would it be better and if so how would it be hooked up
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I have a sidearm in one house and a 20 plate in the other. Both work well. I wanted to try both to see which would be better but so far they both are doing a good job. The plate is pretty much foolproof to set up though. The only issue I have heard with them is plugging up due to hard water. There are lots of pics online showing them. I don't think you would put them both together though.
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i have read some things about both people seem to go either way on which one to use. i might be mistaken but i think that the plate exchanger you dont run out of hot water as fast as you would with sidearm and since i already have a sidearm and i am running out of hot water after one shower i didnt know if using both at the same time would help of just maybe take out sidearm and replace with plate exchanger?
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I have both on my water heater just because i started with a sidearm and was running out of hot water. It was only after the third shower or so but still ran out. I installed a 20 plate and have continuous hot water. I run my boiler at 160-170 and my hot water with just the plate runs about 120 or a little less. I now have them both because my wife likes very hot showers and the sidearm runs the temp up quite a bit. I do think i could get away with just the plate if I ran my boiler temp higher. If I were starting over I would just do the plate exchanger.
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Each product serves a different need essentially. I have a plate exchanger because I use water regularly. I have my electric water heater off at the breaker, and have for almost 2 months now. I use water on a daily basis. However, if I leave town for 2 or 3 days, no water is cycled, therefore, I am dependent on my water heater tank to contain the heat. Sidearms work better with less frequent and less quantity situations. If you live alone or don't generally use lots of water, the sidearm may be your better fit.
Using both works well when you have both types of demands. Your are out of town frequently for a couple days at a time, the sidearm keeps the water up to temp in your tank. If you "drain" your tank with lots of usage, the plate exchanger takes over and keeps your hot supply up. 2 different products for 2 different applications.
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Typically a side arm only extends your hot water tank capacity (virtually), so it appears to be much larger. You can still run out if you use a large amount of hot water. A plate exchanger on the other hand generates the hot water on demand so you never run out unless you run out of wood.
Plate exchangers can plug up easier than sidearms.
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I have both in my application. And it works better that either alone!
I started with just a plate exchanger and it worked just fine. If you have a boiler with a lot of water, or one that can recover real fast, you will be OK. Because you are cooling the boiler water just as fast as you are heating your domestic water. Therefore, you are sending much cooler water back to the boiler when hot water is being used. My stove is a gasser with 250 gallons so it worked well for me.
But, it was bugging me that the water was returning so much cooler, and there sat my water heater with 40 gallons of COLD water in it that could already be HOT. So, this year I added a sidearm heat exchanger to my water heater. Now I have the best of both worlds: 40 gallons of preheated water which leaves the water heater and travels through the plate exchanger then on to the faucet.
Truly endless hot water now! My inlaws spent the weekend here last weekend. Saturday morning we took 5 showers and 1 bath nonstop without any loss of hot water.
CAUTION! A mixing valve (anti scald) is definitely required because the water gets HOT!
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Racnruss, you may have your plate exchanger hooked up backwards. I know there are people who hook their plates like you do. Essentially it works as an "instant" water heater. However, I have mine hooked up the other way. The hot water comes out of my plate and into my water heater. Therefore, instead of being full of cold water, it's full of hot water. My cold water is heated in the exchanger, then goes into the water heater. So, I have 40 gallons of 125-130 degree water.
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Yeah, copy that Countryboy.
I was using a plate exchanger solely before adding the side arm. So it was just easy to go from plate exchanger to sidearm to Furnace with the boiler water.
As far as going from a plate exchanger to the water heater with domestic water, that is OK but you are sending hot water into the water heater where it could actually cool down because of lack of movement for hours while family is at school/work. Whereas, if you are only using a plate exchanger, coming out of water heater on the way to faucets (with mixing valve for safety) is better because you are getting Hot water right off the plate exchanger.
I definitely agree with your point of storage and that's why I added a side arm also. Works great.
I bought the sidearm from local Nature's Comfort dealer with builds them himself. It has 3/4 in and divides into 5 small tubes inside the big tube for excellent heat transfer. Really good quality.
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Yeah, so far, we've used the water enough during the day, that we've never had a problem with the water in the tank cooling too much. In fact, we've gone 3 days without cycling ANY water and when my wife took a shower, she still had to add cold at the beginning of her shower. Obviously, she did have to keep adding cold as her shower progressed as it was getting the tank back up to temp.
It's amazing the number of different ways to get these things hooked up, not just domestic water, and it works! The main thing is, we're all warm and happy! :thumbup:
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i would like to use a side arm heater and a plate exchanger together, wondering what size plate exchanger and what size sidearm would work best ?
would it depend on the amount of hot water being used ?
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I personally like the simplicity of a sidearm. And if your handy enough to build them you can customize one to do any output you want. The limiting factor is the WH gravity flow/stratification flow. But you can add a pump, something very small and very cheap is all you need.
Flat plates are only limited to the btu rating, and obviously more expensive. But if you had a 200kbtu exchanger that would give you an endless amount of tempered water @ 6 GPM. 180-200 boiler supply temp.
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would any one know where i could get a drawing of a sidearm exchanger and plate exchanger being used together ?
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They don't use them together, I'm sure it can be done. But why...
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They don't use them together, I'm sure it can be done. But why...
exactly!
you want hot hot hot water and guaranteed/ forgo the side arm...use a plate exchanger but use a small pump and pump the water from the hot water tank through the plate exchanger and back to the tank 24/7 ( you will need a tempering valve to prevent scalding with this type of set up as the hot water tank can become almost as hot as the OWB)
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A circulating pump isn't necessary if you have even a decent amount of usage. I have a family of 4, and the two kids only get a bath every few days, and we have no problems with the water cooling between uses. We have been gone for 3 days and still had enough hot water in the tank that we still had to add cold water in the shower. Even if the water cools too much, just let the water run for 3 or 4 minutes and you'll be good to go. Even that minor inconvenience doesn't justify a circulatory pump.
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I'll agree with ^^^^^. Family of 4,20 plate exchanger and on a 30 gallon tank. Have not had a problem at all keeping hot water and don't use extra pump to circulate. Oil shut off to hwh also.
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i know you dont need a pump under most condtions but if the plate exchanger is too small perhaps one could be used.
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Crow, your using a plate with no circ on the domestic side? A sidearm requires no circ on the domestic side. We have much higher usage so a circ is needed to keep up. I wonder how long of a shower you can get from a 30 gallon and a sidearm ? I know what a 120kbtu plate will do.
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Nope, no circ on the domestic side. Cold water from well through 20 plate and then into 30 gallon water tank. So the tank is just hot water storage. I got this great idea from the fine folks here and so far working flawlessly. Did put a tempering valve on also and it is set at 120* which is still too hot for me but my better half likes it.
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Mr. Sprinter, I don't use a circ for my plate either. I'm set up just like Mr. Crow. I filled a 400 gallon hot tub with 110 degree water this way. The water gets hotter the more you use.
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That makes more sense, I never thought of it installed that way. I guess the sidearm and gravity flow kept me guessing , picturing wrong
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Again, the plate exchanger will work on its own provided you have a boiler with a lot of water capacity or a very fast recovery boiler.
My Father in law has a Hardy H2. It only holds like 80 or 100 gallons of water. So, as you use your domestic hot water, it is cooling the boiler just as fast and it cannot recover fast enough.
He used to have the domestic hot water running through the hot water coil in the H2 and then into the water heater. Pretty much the same thing as a plate exchanger before the water heater. The problem was that once you took a couple showers, the boiler itself had cooled down and was trying to recover but it just cant recover fast enough for continuous hot water usage. Therefore you would run out of hot water just like a normal water heater runs out.
So, we added a circulating pump in his application to circulate water out of the bottom of the water heater, through the hot water coil in H2 and then back into water heater. Basically doing the same thing as a sidearm but, yes, running a pump instead of adding a sidearm.
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racnruss, Great point! That is very possible to run out if your boiler is on the smaller side regarding water capacity. My P&M only has 90 gallon cap. and have not run out .........yet. I guess my family and I aren't trying hard enough. If/when it cannot keep up I will have to rethink this setup.
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I didn't know that the BL series only held 90 gallons.
I didn't mention before but my FIL keeps his H2 set pretty low at 140 or 150. Which he can because of being stainless steel. You probably have your boiler set much higher than that which probably makes a big difference too.
How much are you heating with your BL? and what climate?
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I have had it running at 190 since I fired it up with 12 degree differential right now. Only heating 1500 sqft plus basement with high hopes to build a shop. I live in Eastern Ontario.
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The B-L series does not require a lot of water stoage because of the massive amount of refractory cement in the base that keeps the fire hot, response time on a call for heat is greatly reduced therefor no need for large water capacity.