Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: andyjs on December 04, 2013, 11:18:23 AM
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Need to replace my underground pipe to boiler just wanted some opinions.I have a 4 foot wide path 150 feet to the house snow melted my pipes are junk!
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Depends on your financial situation. Do you want to pay $5, $10, or $15 per foot? Also note, that underground piping is YGWYPF. You Get What You Pay For.
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I learned that the last time paid 6 bucks a foot and its junk.just wanted opinions on like a 5 wrap or thermopex?
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my snow melts between my boiler and garage too. Luckily it is only about a 20 foot run.
I think the next time I put pipe underground I am going to put my insulated pex-in-black pipe INSIDE a 6 inch hard PVC pipe with the joints glued and elbowed up to above ground on both ends. That way the cold, damp earth can't even touch the black tile pipe.
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Your Cadillac best of the best option is Logstor. There are a lot of guys on here who have lost faith in Thermo-pex. The cheaper option the guys on here endorse is the 5-wrap. I think most are in agreement with what racnruss mentioned: sleeving the insulated pipe in a solid smooth plastic pipe. Schedule 30, 40 or something like that.
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http://m.ebay.com/itm/250748766468?cmd=VIDESC&gxo=true (http://m.ebay.com/itm/250748766468?cmd=VIDESC&gxo=true) I found this 5 wrap on eBay is it any good?
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I dug a trench with a mini excavator, put down thick plastic sheeting the entire length of the trench, put my pipes in the trench, and spray foamed it. I lifted up and separated the pipes about an inch as I went along and sprayed as I went. In the 80 feet between boiler and house, I have a 0 degree heat loss and my snow have never melted over the piping. The pipes enter the house only about 1' under ground too. Closed cell spray foam wrapped in plastic keeps the water out and the heat in.
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Where did u buy the spray foam?
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+1 on the in ground spray foam. I have a 100 foot run and lose 1 degree. I had a guy come and spray it. He sprayed my water jacket on my boiler + 100 feet of line for $500.
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That pipe looks good but do you know what type of tile it's actually in?
This picture is of a 3 year old SOLID drainage tile buried 4' deep, poplar trees are minimum of 25' away. Enlarge the pictures to really see the roots. I had to cut the tile in half just to remove the roots. I have since replaced this tile with 4" PVC solid sewer pipe.
PS, I used logstor on my own install, I also did another short run of 30' of 4" PVC with foam insulation on the lines just to see if there was a difference.
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All I got to say is spend the $$$ for the good pipe..Id be buying it from the dealer of your boiler …Maybe look into central boiler piping as an option too.. Def don't do the home depot way…If your buying online..Just be careful what you buy
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I used this for a run and no complaints:
http://www.pr.com/press-release/342081 (http://www.pr.com/press-release/342081)
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Maybe some of these companies should test their pipe in a swimming pool or water tank to check the heat loss? Would this not be a fairer test than laying it on the ground or floor and seeing what the temperature loss is? Are there any dealers on here who sell the foam wrapped in a corrugated type tile that would test theirs? It would be an easy test to do in a tank using a coil of pipe.
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if you goto the website of a manufacturer you amy see how they tested their pipes...i think i seen one that said it was in 32 degree earth and at 5 gpm of 180 degree water
i have seen others that pump the water faster (as high as 10gpm) to make the numbers look better
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But do they submerge it in water? I spent hours reading online before I bought my line and it seems to me that almost every problem was water infiltration of the line. So it would make sense to me to test the pipe under water to see how it does. Even an air test of the actual tile would tell you if it leaks or not. I bought a roll of solid field tile and it was full of holes ( from rubbing during shipping, manufacturing flaws etc) so I took it back.
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i doubt they test it in the water... but most of the pipe is not bad on initial install (not saying it doesnt happen) but perhaps those installing it pop a hole in it or later on after install a year or two down the road a stone rubs a hole in it. many things can happen i guess. taht is why a lot of folks now are using a second tile and even clean sand below and above the pipe when they install it... remember this pipe plays a vital role in teh heating of your house, it should be counted almost as important (or more so) than the brand of stove you choose...and like your stove, your choice of pipe may well hae to do with your budget. what ever type of pipe a user buys they should do all they can to ensure its integrity not only when they install it but to do everything they can to ensure its life
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I forget exactly what brand of foam I bought, but it's very similar to this stuff:
http://www.tigerfoam.com/ (http://www.tigerfoam.com/)
I wouldn't buy exactly what your dealer tells you to buy either. My dad got his installed by his dealer and they used a triple wrap bubble foil insulation inside of a drainage tile on his (about the cheapest/worst option out there). I'm moving this week and probably installing my boiler at the new house this spring. I fully intend to use spray foam again since it's performed so well so far and it's not incredibly expensive, especially on longer runs.
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I made a mess across the nicest part of my property to put in the pipe I purchased, but put a LOT of screened sand below and above to protect it. The trench was 18-20 inches wide so LOTS of sand and each side also. In most cases you get what you pay for, and to do this again because I cheaped out on pipe or pipe preparation would be a kick in the a$$.
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Are there any good 4 line pipes every one a seen the pipes were touching.wanting to heat hot tub also and not run another pipe from boiler.
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Judd, I have heard that frost movement or expansion and contraction can cause movement and crack the sprayfoam and allow water to get near the hot pipes, have you heard of this? Next year I will have a 100' run to install and I'm considering my options again. Logstor here is around $15 a foot plus taxes so it adds up quickly. We have lots to deal with here, heavy clay, stones, wet conditions, frost conditions and a dutch wife so I have to make the right decision.
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I've never heard of that. Spray foam does have some give to it if you've ever poked at it after it's cured. Mine is buried 4' deep for the majority of the run, but where I entered the basement wall I had to come up to only about 1' deep to get through my 1875 stone basement wall. If you can keep your entire run below the frost line, then you don't even have to wonder. I wouldn't think twice about using it again even if I had the same issue at this new house, though.
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The underground pipe is not the place to cheap out, I have sold and installed thousands of feet of Logstor here in the northeast and never had even one failure of the product, I will not do a permanent install with anything else.
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:post:
I just checked a website for logstor....while it might not be cheap, it just might be the best, and I am a firm believer in you get what ya pay for......I say do it once and never look back. May have used it in my own install had I know about it or where I could get my hands on it without spending $$ on shipping costs.
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I was always scared since I insulated my own lines and pulled them through a 6 inch tile that I would have the issue of them losing alot of heat to the ground. I know there are alot of good insulated pipe choices but I just couldnt swing the cost. I have a 60 ft run to my shop and a 127 foot run to my house. The pipe going to my house is 1inch for the exchanger and 3/4 inch for the hot water coil in the furnace. I got a little bit of snow yesterday. Just enough to cover the ground. The pic below shows the 127 foot run which comes in right below the window I am looking out of. Straight shot to the furnace which you can see in the distance. Zero snow melt. The lines are 30" down and pulled through 6" black corrugated pipe. This is my 4th year and am very happy with them. It has been over 24 hours since mother nature laid that dusting down. My shop is at the right in the photo.
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I think some people can get away with much more than others, drainage and water tables have huge effects. Logstor is an awesome product, I would say if I were a dealer use it 100 per cent, will it always be better than anything else as a do it yourselfer?
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:post:
I agree with ITO, unless all conditions are know hard to say what you can get by with minimal heat loss. I would say at a minimum try to get below the frost line, but above the water table; that will give you the best chance at keeping your lines dry and warm.
When i installed my distribution lines I used the high dollar stuff, Uponor Ecoflex (sorry had to name drop cause family member works for Uponor) , and buried it 6' down to get below footing.
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I installed a 5 wrap 1" lines 100 feet from boiler to house with temp gauge on feed and return at boiler and also where it entered the building. My temp loss has been 1degree each way in the ground. pipes are down 14" to36" with sand 6"below 8" on each side and6"on top with top soil. Had a few inches of snow with below freezing temp then temp went above freezeing for a few days and the snow melted where the lines were first. So i dont think my lines are bad with a 1 degree loss each way. What i'am trying to say is to check your water temp at each end before replaceing you lines it would be a lot cheaper.
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I have about a 1 dregree loss at 150 ft from stove to furnace with zsupply 3 wrap with a double outter pipe at 3ft deep
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Losing 6 degrees on each side plus water coming out of pipe at boiler
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Logstor is probably the best overall. The wrapped lines can be good id installed properly, double tiling them makes them hard to beat for the money
as far as 4 line, ahh, if u just wanna do a hot tub u sure dont need more lines for that
just use a close t design off of the main boiler loop
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I'm finally getting back to finishing and installing my home built OWB.
I bought the 5 wrap from Badger and also bought 6" pvc drain tile to encapsulate it. I dug the trench 65' house to boiler. Upon fitting the 5" 5 wrap into the 6" pvc I discovered that I could not get a 45 degree fitting to go through the 5" exterior tile.
I ended up having to cut off about 20 feet of my 5" exterior tile. Thus I effectively lost my super duper double pipe system. I am however enclosed in the 6" schedule 40 sewer pipe so I am hoping it is enough protection and insulation.
So if anyone is thinking of doing this, 6" pvc would work with wrapped pipes inside of a 4" tile but if it's a 5" tile you would need to go larger than 6" pvc, and that would probably cost more than the Logstor.
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Slim Jim said it perfect. Never does a permanent install with anything else than logstor. If they won't post specific test data conditions and heat loss , it's not worth the risk. If they were anywhere near as good as their claimed R values, they would be posting all data and then some. Save now and spend more later. S&R lines are the last place to skimp, and you do get what you pay for.
However if you've Learned the hard way about the "fancy wrapped" lines, they still can be salvaged if you want to self insulated the trench. It has to be waterproof period, spray foam is the easiest, but Roxul works well also. I've seen anything from shower pan , the white commercial flat roof. Material and heavy mil plastics to line trench. Spray foam, beads, foam board, PVC, culvert material, whatever could be used of found to work. Many times foam products can be found in the industrial parts of a city being thrown out.
Depth doesn't matter for a good insulpipe.