Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: woodburner85 on December 08, 2013, 09:12:24 PM
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This fall I installed a Heatmaster SS 10000 to existing underground lines from previous stove. The previous stove corroded through 3 years ago. I am heating a old farmhouse 2000 square feet with very little insulation. Baseboard radiator heat. Around one hundred and twenty feet of underground between house and boiler. 40 plate water to water plate exchanger and 20 plate for hot water on return side. taco 009 f5 pump . I have the stove set at 180 degrees and I am showing 15 to 20 degrees cooler in the house on the back up furnace thermostat. With the below zero weather recently I can not keep the house above sixty four degrees without setting stove over 190 but that seems pretty risky. Could I have an undersized pump or plate exchanger or do you think that my underground could be that horrible. If it is underground would it pay to temporarily install thermopex above ground for the winter and how much heat loss could I expect having it above ground? How much wood am I wasting if I am losing that much heat underground? How much and where would be a good place to buy a laser thermometer to do some checking and how accurate are they? Thank you
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Im having similar issues. On single digit nights and low to mid teens my house stays 4 degrees colder than the thermostat. I have baseboard and upgraded to taco 0011 and only have a 50ft run of 3 wrap insulated pex amd still get chilly. Im calling in a pro tomorrow. Its sucks trying to figure it out lol. But id say it be worth the money to get insulated lines and lay them above ground. Depends on what wrap you get. Good luck.
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Bad underground lines will show up as excessive wood usage, not trouble heating the house.
How cold is the return water going back to the boiler? Are the plates around 5x12" or are they smaller?
Normally there is about a 20 degree difference between the primary side and the secondary side of the heat exchanger on a system like that. Baseboard heater output drops off fast with lower temperature. You will probably need to add more baseboard heaters or some other type of heat exchanger to get the output you need.
If you way oversize the plate it may gain you a little but probably not enough. I would go with at least an 80 plate if you try that.
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Sorry to steal this thread. RSI. How exactly does a heat exchanger work for baseboard heat? I dont quite follow how heat exchangers work for something like this. I always thought a heat exchanger was for something like forced air units?
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Dave, heat exchangers are any device that converts the incoming heated medium to some type of other heated medium. So for Water to Air heat exchangers you convert the hot water medium to hot air medium. With a Forced hot water baseboard set up you are converting the non pressurized hot water medium from the outdoor boiler to the pressurized hot water medium of the indoor hydronic heating system. Wood burner, please let us know what the temp is before it enters the plate exchanger on both the outdoor boiler and the indoor boiler systems and well as what temperature is after it leaves the exchanger on both the outdoor boiler side and the indoor boiler side when you have the house zones calling for heat. I would assume that the backup system (oil or gas) in the house is able to keep up with the demand and keep the house at the correct temperature? If that is the case then you are not converting that water from the outdoor boiler to the indoor boiler effectively. The temp readings will tell us the whole story.
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RSI is correct, its hard to heat an uninsulated space with baseboard unless you have a lot of it.
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Woodburner, your Taco 009 with no head loss will circulate maybe 8 gpm. When considering the 120' run(x2), the 40 plate exchanger, any other fittings (possibly your 20 plate as well- you didn't say how it was hooked up)you would be working with 20 feet of head or more. Now your 009 is moving maybe 5 gpm. Your 40 plate might have a rating of 400,000 btu/hr. but that is with 180 deg. water at over 40 gpm!
A fphe is your friend if you want reduced temps as in reducing boiler temps to infloor temps but not so much for radiators. So in my non-professional opinion, a larger pump will help, at least on the boiler side. 5gpm(if I am close in my guess) seems way too little for a unit capable of 500,000 btu/hr.
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I would've spent the money on insulation and new windows before dumping money into wood and a OWB. After that then buy the OWB. Guy down the road from me has the similar setup and is ALWAYS cutting wood. My house stays 70 constant running 18hr plus burn times set at 150-160. Make the home efficient and then add the stove etc. My stove sets maybe 60ft from my house and I run triple wrap double tiled pipe made in grand rapids michigan eze flex or something like that, pretty efficient and strong stuff.
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The best way to see where the problem actually is would be to check the temperature of the water as it comes out of the 40 plate and heads toward the first baseboard. If its 160 or above adding pumps or a larger plate heat exchange isn't going to do much and the problem is in the amount of baseboard you have. If its below 160 then adding a larger pump may have some benefit.
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average numbers for a typical 3/4 one pipe slant fin baseboard is (rated btu per foot of basebaord)
140 degrees delivery ----300 btu
150---350
160---400
170---500
180---550
190---650
200---700
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Yes it is very important to get that number up as high as possible. But when using a heat exchanger you will never get the temp up as high as the outdoor furnace.
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taht is why if your original boiler was sized close you may need more baseboard when you go to the OWB...your deliveryy temps will not likley be as hot as the indoor boiler?
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Very true! I always tell customers if they have an indoor boiler that must be run over 160 to heat the home they may be in trouble if they hook a furnace to it. If they can test the existing boiler and it will heat the home at 160 or below we are good to go.
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Gotta disagree with you Mr. Victor. My house has terrible insulation and windows. Installing new windows and insulation might have reduced my heating bill by 25%, and I think that's being generous. My stove cut my first bill by 50%. I imagine my November bill will be even greater savings. Upwards of 75%. I will be saving WAY more using the stove rather than sinking money into windows and insulation. I will likely start installing new windows in the next year or two. Although it will still be hard to justify, because I will just be saving wood now, and not necessarily money.
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Gotta disagree with you Mr. Victor. My house has terrible insulation and windows. Installing new windows and insulation might have reduced my heating bill by 25%, and I think that's being generous. My stove cut my first bill by 50%. I imagine my November bill will be even greater savings. Upwards of 75%. I will be saving WAY more using the stove rather than sinking money into windows and insulation. I will likely start installing new windows in the next year or two. Although it will still be hard to justify, because I will just be saving wood now, and not necessarily money.
Must be you work for free? Just wait til you insulate better and add better windows then you will be on the sofa drinking beer and eating popcorn like me.
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Yeah but in 20 years he will be retired in the Bahama's and with that much beer and popcorn with no exercise you'll be smelling daisies and dirt
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Thanks Slim! I do pride myself in hard work, as do most of us who burn wood. I've made other posts on this forum about what "free" means to me. So, I won't go there again. But, in short Mr. Victor, yes, I work for free.
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There ain't nothing in this world thats free, self respect and LIBERTY can come at a high price, I'll take it!
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woodburner, If you want a cheap infrared thermometer try Harbor Freight. I got one and would say it is definitely worth the money but can be touchy to use. Have never used a good one so can't honestly compare. Another inexpensive route to take is cooking type thermometers installed so that they make good contact with the pipe (foil tape then pipe insulation) Maybe not super accurate but a good indicator of temperature difference.
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There ain't nothing in this world thats free, self respect and LIBERTY can come at a high price, I'll take it!
I am not opposed of cutting a little wood here and there for some exercise. But, if I had a choice I would rather make my home efficient first and then buy the OWB and cut a lot less wood than I would have to if my home was inefficient. :post:
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Ah Yes........The word FREE !!!! My second favorite 4-letter "F" word !!!!!! Ain't nothin free people.......I once had a work aquaintance ask me for a cord of wood for his fireplace. He figured that since I cut my own firewood, it was "free" and therefore would not be big deal...I don't need to tell you all what my response was........ Our freindship never blossomed !!!
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Like I said, I've addressed "free" before. Halfway down on this page: http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=4124.15 (http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=4124.15) Don't want to dirty up this thread anymore.
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Maybe a better term is "return on your investment". The better windows and insulation will cost more dollars and cents which are easy to see. Cutting more wood is less dollars and cents if you already own the land and don't add the cost of buying it. I will be getting my wood for " free" right behind my house next year. It's not my land so it didn't cost me anything other than the actually work and supplies, saws, fuel, oil etc. My wood will end up being cheap compared to land that I would have to buy to have "free" wood.
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Maybe a better term is "return on your investment". The better windows and insulation will cost more dollars and cents which are easy to see. Cutting more wood is less dollars and cents if you already own the land and don't add the cost of buying it. I will be getting my wood for " free" right behind my house next year. It's not my land so it didn't cost me anything other than the actually work and supplies, saws, fuel, oil etc. My wood will end up being cheap compared to land that I would have to buy to have "free" wood.
free wood is free...unless of couarse as some free wood is...you cut a load for me and load for you...of even completely free may not be so if all of a suddn you are taking twice th e free wood the owner thought you were going ot be because you have suck a leaky old barn..just saying the guy looing out the window who does own the free wood mayhave second thoughts and he can change the rules anytime
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Maybe a better term is "return on your investment". The better windows and insulation will cost more dollars and cents which are easy to see. Cutting more wood is less dollars and cents if you already own the land and don't add the cost of buying it. I will be getting my wood for " free" right behind my house next year. It's not my land so it didn't cost me anything other than the actually work and supplies, saws, fuel, oil etc. My wood will end up being cheap compared to land that I would have to buy to have "free" wood.
Even if you own land for wood you still pay taxes on the property every year so its not a big difference versus one lump debt of windows and insulation. Not trying to be a smartass but
making the home efficient makes the best sense especially if you wanna stay there forever. This is almost like tossing a tarp on a leaky roof situation but this is a heating issue. I hope you solve the heating issue.
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could there be water touching you lines in the ground somewhere.just a thought
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Willie, the guy who owns the property is one of the largest turkey producers in Ontario. He's building 5 barns beside my house, I changed my zoning which allowed him to build the barns. I think I'm ok in his woodlot. My family used to own the land also. I usually go around the 3 farms beside me every year and push all the dead trees that have fallen into the field back into the bush. I don't take the wood though, he's given me permission to take whatever I want now. Exactly what I was hoping the "free" work would get me some day.
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nice to have a wood supply that good and close too..congrats :thumbup:
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Dave
Did you get any answers from your heating pro????
I felt your pain, last yr my old boiler could not keep up. I bit the bullet installed a bigger unit. MY FAULT!!!!
House this am is 75….. lovin life!!
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thanks for all of the replies, I have been out of town so I haven't been able to check into anything yet. Luckily i have a roommate to feed the stove when im away. I will look into the water temps throughout the system and see if that explains anything. I will post the temps on here also and hope to get more good advice. Thanks