Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => HeatMaster => Topic started by: MO_Hunter on December 23, 2013, 11:33:12 AM
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I bought a house with a Heatmaster 4000 SS and have used it for one year. Last winter it kept the house temp very nice. ( a couple times to hot since we where getting use to it)
This year is has not been as good to us. We have baseboard radiators with 3 zones and the system runs through hot water heater. If the outside temp is above 30 the house heats up to 74 (temp wife like) but if temp drops below that for several days we can not get it passed 64 -69 in any of our zones.
We have check to make sure the zones are calling for heat and inside pump is running at 12 psi. Copper pipe though out house with pex to and from OWB.
We have made sure no air was in line.
I bumped up the settings to 185 with 10 degree drop but still can not get house temp up. I have check to make sure water was indeed getting heated to 185+- at the stove.
After shutting down last year I really did not do anything to the OWB. Is there some cleaning I should of done? I know this unit is discontinued but not sure what is going on.
Any thoughts?
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No water to water plate exchanger? could be air in the upstairs heat loops, air will severely slow the flow of hot water within the loop.
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Is there are way to check the water plate exchanger? I will re-bleed every radiator to make sure they do not have air in them.
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Can you describe your system one more time, do you have a plate exchanger on the pressurized side of the system, any temp guages at the heat exchager?
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The lines come into house and goes into a heat sink ( aic brazed plate heat exchanger )
System appears to be hooked up in line with the existing LP gas boiler the house had and runs though hot water heater. All lines out seem hot to the touch.
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Pic of heat exchanger
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All circulators on the loops or zone vaves, are all circs operating, check them by closing off a ball valve on that loop about 3/4 way and listen for a change in tone of the circ and water rushing by the valve.
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Though hot water heater
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Appears to be considerable resistance in the lines with elbows, no ball valves on each port makes it difficult to clean or check the heat exchanger
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I really do not have the knowledge on these types of systems I guess. We had two zone valves replaced because they where not turning on pump when the called for heat.
I do not know how to do what you are asking so I guess I am stuck paying someone to come out again but not to many repair people have even seen these things and I have had a couple say well maybe it just can not keep up.
Since it is discontinued model I may be stuck until spring with it.
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Can you not call the dealer who installed the system? My guess is either there is scale build up in the flat plate or there is air blocking the system somewhere. Or I guess you could have a pump impeller broken. Are the radiators getting good and hot? Do you have any way to check the water temp anywhere in the system other than the furnace?
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Not sure who installed the unit since it was here when I bought the home. There are only 2 dealers in MO and neither are real close by. I contacted the closes one when the blower went out on front door. He said he never seen this model but did get me the part.
Radiators are warm to touch and hot if you leave hand on them awhile.
I will contact dealer.
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Temperature is everything. We need to know what the temperature is before and after it goes through the plate heat exchanger on both the owb side and on the lp gas heater side. We also need to know what temperature the water is when it heads into a zone and what the temp is when it returns from that zone. Best way to check these is with a infrared thermometer that you can pick up at any big box store for around $40 bucks. They are worth their weight in gold. Anybody that tells you that ' well maybe it can't keep up' should never be asked to look at any heating system you have again. That plainly shows their lack of knowledge in heating systems. Report back with what temps you get and we can go from there. A tip about reading temp on pex, you should really cover the area that you plan to read the temp of with a piece of pipe insulation. When you take the temp, peel back the insulation and take the reading. Also put the gun right on the pipe when you take the reading keeping it parallel with the pipe. If you go perpendicular it seems to not read as well and if you aren't right against the pipe you will have the sensor reading other things as well leaving you with an inaccurate number.
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I've been building in a temp gauge on new installs of radiant heat lately because I think it could answer questions like these down the road. It sounds as if you may no longer be getting a good exchange at the plate heater. Depending on your water quality there may be some scale build up that is greatly reducing the ability to heat your system. If you are running the furnace at 185 you should be able to get at least 160 coming out of the heat exchange if it is sized correctly. This would mean there is no way you would be able to lay your hand on the copper pipe coming out of it. Try feeling the pipe going into the heat exchange and comparing it to the pipe exiting. This will not be an exact reading but it should give you a good idea of how well it is working. If there is no noticeable difference then you have most likely found the problem.
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Can you not call the dealer who installed the system? My guess is either there is scale build up in the flat plate or there is air blocking the system somewhere. Or I guess you could have a pump impeller broken. Are the radiators getting good and hot? Do you have any way to check the water temp anywhere in the system other than the furnace?
If the flat plate is stopped up on well water side no heat no hot water period ..stopped up on heater side cant pump or circulate no heat risk pump failure?
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Maybe if its completely plugged but often what I see on flat plates is just scale buildup. Water still flows through but doesn't heat well. It only happens in certain areas normally when you have limestone in the water.
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OK so I got Temp readings now. Furnace is set to 185 with 10 degree drop
Heat Exchanger
TL 143 degree (pex I believe this is from OWB in)
TR 86 degree at exchanger but 123 2ft away from the exchanger (copper to zone valves)
BL 121 degree (pex return to OWB my guess)
BR 106 degree (copper at pump)
Before Zones 115 degree
Z1 out 110
Z2 out 112
Z3 out 115
Floor radiators are 112 to 119 degrees
I assume temp measurments are could be off a little depending the gun and the user.
Another thing that is strange is I have had water coming out of the overflow stack ever since I filled the unit. Only comes out when the blower is blowing. Is there something else that could pull water into the system other than a bad fill valve? (might be related I do not know)
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You can't heat a home well with radiators below 120. The part that really caught my attention is the 40 degree loss from furnace to home. All the other numbers look about right for 143 degree water coming from the furnace.
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Your temps that head to the house radiators are really low.
This was posted by willie g, I assume its pretty close to accurate.
average numbers for a typical 3/4 one pipe slant fin baseboard is (rated btu per foot of basebaord)
140 degrees delivery ----300 btu
150---350
160---400
170---500
180---550
190---650
200---700
It is no wonder why you can't keep your house at temp. If your zones are only getting 120 degrees you are only putting out maybe 200 btus per foot!
Can you measure the temp of the owb pipe when it leaves the OWB, if it is 185 and it comes into the house at 143 that means that you are losing 42 degrees from boiler to house, that would most certainly point to water touching your lines underground somewhere. Also with these temp guns they are temperamental about what they are reading against, they don't read off of shiny metal but if you put a piece of masking tape around the area and test the tape you will get an accurate reading. The pex can also be funky to read off of, I read off of an area that is normally covered with insulation, I peel it back and take the reading. Remember to put the gun on the pipe when you take the reading or you will get the gun reading the pipe and other things as well. After we figure out if that incoming temp is really a 42 degree drop or not we can move on. Thanks for the numbers, they show the whole story!
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Putting a piece of electrical tape or even spray paint( flat color) will help give a better IR gun reading. Some guns have emisivity adjustments for this too.
Does the boiler pump have multi speed? I would go buy a bunch of shark bite valves and couplings, and pull the flat plat exchangers IF the boiler pump checks good.
We have to assume this system worked at one time as is. So track down where the big temp loss is. Which you got a good start. Good thing is you do have flow if every radiating pipe and emitter is warm to hot. Infloor systems are low temp ,so 100-130 degree supply depending on substrate.
Since you have no one out there, at least you have plenty of good guys here to help with good info. And with SDS supply you can have and pump or boiler part to your door overnite cheaper than a plumber coming out.
Vinegar works well for flushing out flat plates if you have to. Can you give us you circulator/pump model numbers.
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I will get the reading at furnace tomorrow before going into ground. Wonder if the water leaking out of overflow is my issue. Seem there is a large ice collection around the conduit going into ground.
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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That don't look good!
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I will get the reading at furnace tomorrow before going into ground. Wonder if the water leaking out of overflow is my issue. Seem there is a large ice collection around the conduit going into ground.
WOW!!!!
Hopefully that water leak didn't make it's way into your insulated pex. That would definitely explain the heat loss between the boiler and the house.
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Would you care to make a wager on this one Marty? How was Christmas and new years, darn cold over here.
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My goodness ive missed out
You have some issues thats for sure, but why is there water coming out your over flow????
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Hey Scott where ya been, Sooo,me and Marty have been talking about the show, if I come down , whats the chances of you buying dinner and beverages?
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Hey Scott where ya been, Sooo,me and Marty have been talking about the show, if I come down , whats the chances of you buying dinner and beverages?
hahaha ill buy the beer
Which show are you referring to tho?
Ive not had much time to be on lately, these new epa regs are gonna change my business drastically and im trying to see whats gonna happen
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OK so I believe we got to the issue.
The system is going through the hot water heater. I assumed this was a closed circuit but it appears it is not. There were some valves on the hot water heater that were not close thus it was adding cold water back into the system.
Most likely why my 40 deg temp drop and diff. why water was coming out of overflow stack.
We will see tonight how hot the house gets.
So here is another question. Should a system that goes through hot water heater be closed or open system. If open how does the water keep from contamination and how does it keep from adding to much water back into the system? Man there is a lot to learn here.
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Wow what a mess. U must get this straightened out before someone gets hurt or you ruin your stove. the water should not be being shared.
You need to use a heat exchanger at the tank to keep the domestic separate from the boiler
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Thanks Scott,
I have close all valves to remove hot water heater from them system until I verify how it was connected. Had a local plumber help. Hate the fact that I did not own the home when installed so I know what was done and that home inspector did not know anything about these systems. Been running in the dark as you can tell.
Guess I will be downloading a installation diagram for how it should be hooked up and going through it with the plumber to make sure it is corrected,