Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => HeatMaster => Topic started by: caper on December 27, 2013, 02:02:43 PM
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Hey guys,one thing i noticed,every time i clean the ash box, i find it very hard to keep a nice fire going , it actually doesnt give me any relief until about two weeks when the box partially fills back up again, is this a common issue with the heatmasters..
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I to notice a difference in my fire right after I empty my ash pan. But, not to the point of struggling with the fire. I always have a decent coal bed that gets the fire going. What I notice is more of my air hits the front of the box and as time goes on the air migrates to the back. I only empty my ashes every 3 weeks. I went 4 least time and that was too long. Less than 3 weeks and I end up dumping coals.
I think as long as you get a nice coal bed, it shouldn't be a big issue. But, I'll be open to any other recommendations other experienced Heatmaster guys have!
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I cut a 11 1/2 x 12 piece of 1/4 inch steel plate and laid up front on grate to help cut down air hitting front of box
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I know it sounds strange but you don't have to empty the ash pan out completely.
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You are wayyy over cleaning the stove
even after I clean out I leave a few inches of coals in fire box
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Yeah, when I empty my pan, my coal bed doesn't change. I just wait 3 weeks and simply pull the pan, dump, and return to the stove. I don't shake or anything. All that comes out is powder dry dust.
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So I empty mine ever Saturday is that bad? Sure sounds like that I do it way to much.
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Yeah, when I empty my pan, my coal bed doesn't change. I just wait 3 weeks and simply pull the pan, dump, and return to the stove. I don't shake or anything. All that comes out is powder dry dust.
Thats the way to do it. The only time to shake the grates is if you are burning coal or if the ash builds up a lot on the firebox.
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I must be doing something wrong then. I'm having to empty mine out at least once a week. I burn nothing but oak or maybe a dab of hickory . Its plump full usually at 5 days. Not only is the ash pan full but there will also be 5-6" loaded on top of the shaker grates mixed with my coals so after emptying the ash pan I give several light shakes and empty once more. I know when it's full as I get a blazing hot spot right I front of the door and nowhere else. I live in western Wisconsin and its been single digits almost every day if that matters. Also I see people talking about not having much smoke coming from the chimney. I find this extremely hard to believe as I get smoke all the time. Only time I'm getting the clear ripples coming out of the stack is when I'm low on wood and it's squeezing every last little bit out of my coal bed. I have a 10,000e with the secondary fan deleted. Come on guys what's going on here?!?!
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What does your ash look like? Are there little black coals or just powder? When I empty every 2-3 weeks, it is absolutely full of ash. Almost packed. But, that ensures I get all the heat out of it i can. Those black coals are heat you're throwing out. I COULD pull a full ash pan out every week (in fact I used to do that), but again, there would be coals in it. When you let your ash pan fill up a bit, it will pull that hot spot back away from the door. I get that same hot spot for a few days after emptying, but it gradually works its way back as the pan fills up again.
As far as smoke goes, with the cold temps we're having, I'm noticing a bit more really white smoke. I think that is moisture from the wood that's really only visible in the extreme cold. When the temps are a bit warmer, I do have less smoke. Almost none. It also depends on the wood I'm burning. How seasoned is your oak? I have oak that was cut in July and it smokes a lot more than the other wood I have. From what I gather on here, it takes almost 2-3 years to get oak down to a good moisture content.
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If your ash pan is full after a week,how is air getting anywhere but the very back of your stove? My oak is only seasoned 6 months at best.
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Well, I wasn't 100% sure on that until this week. I'm having a fan issue (I think) and I was removing other variables by cleaning my stove as much as humanly possible. So, I pulled the ash pan and shined a flashlight to the back of the ash sleeve. I noticed that the air opening is above the top of the ash pan. There is a couple inches or so between the top of the ash pan and the bottom of the grates. I believe when the ash pan is full, the air comes in that opening and travels along the grates between top of the ash pan and the bottom of your coals. Additionally, if you hit your shaker it will make that air corridor a little better. Some guys say not to hit the shaker, but I do it for this purpose and I know Kybaseball does it too. It seems to open that channel back up. At the end of my burn cycle when there is nothing but coals left, I notice two cone shaped areas at the 1/3 marks near the front and near the back, where all the coals and ash have been blown out and I can see my grates. I rake the coals back out nice and even and load. Air flow is a curious thing and has a mind of it's own. This is the best I can explain it. It works for me.
As far as smoke goes, I think we're in the same spot. Our oak just isn't seasoned enough. I was burning a lot of super dry and almost rotted wood and 12 month seasoned soft maple and had almost no smoke. If you wanted to, you could buy a truck load of well seasoned wood for $50 and just try it.
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Sluggo, not sure how your developing that much so fast. If your roaring in front of thr door seems like your coal bed is the thinnest there
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Scott, mine seems to roar at the front too for a couple days after I empty my ash pan. All that air just runs down the ash pan unimpeded till it hits the front then rushes upward. What I do in that case is keep my pile back behind the first chimney pass. I occasionally could hear the water boiling right above the door, between the upper bypass door and the main loading door. It never evaporated though, because once it rose in the water tank it would cool back to normal temps before it reached to top of the water. It gets that front end where the first bypass stops pretty hot. Keeping the pile back seems to help till the ash pan fills up again and pulls the flame back.
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Yea they can do that...
Not taking out all the ashes is one answer to it
As rarely as I take ashes out I dont see it that often but have
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That is one of the reason's i purchased an E model to force air to the back but had to take that away.
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How did u take it away?
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Same here kybaseball,my so e series is no different now than my original 10,000. They came and blocked the upper blower on mine. And the boys at Heatmaster can't figure out why I'm mad. Plain and simple...I got rid of a perfectly good mf10,000 and got a 10,000e for 2 or 3 grand to boot. The way I see it is I just paid $3000 for a nothing. Maybe we got missed in some recall or something?
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There was a kit that went out to fix that I was told.
But the main advantage of the e series is the extra pass in the top, not as much the over air fire, altho the over fire air does help the extra pass is where most of the improvement comes from
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I know the extra bypass is great but I have noticed that not having the air over the fire is what I miss the most. It takes longer for the fire to get hot and shut the draft back off. I am getting the 12 hour burn times with the temps being cold but having to put more wood in to get the 12 hour burn time. I have a couple times have had to baby the stove to get the temp back up cause of the fire taking to long to get hot again. Never had that problem when I had the top draft. I think Heatmaster needs to fix it where I can use the top draft cause it helps a lot.
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They did I thought
I thought dave came and put the new kit on yours???
The top draft can hide bottom draft problems thats for sure
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Dave had no clue to what Heatmaster wanted to do. He couldn't make his mind up if he wanted to do it or not. They need to make a kit to use the top draft. If they can make the bypass then they can make a kit to hook up the top draft without putting something inside the stove.
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I've been going back and forth with Heatmaster for two years and can not get any kind of answer from them. Scott,do the new e series have a different/better setup. If I spring for the 20,000e this summer I would like to know that they got their $@$@ together.
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Ive not had any problems with them. But was told they made a kit to reintroduce the top draft.
As far as the 10e and 20e, I think there 2 of the best units going. Im not having any problems and my customers are thrilled.
andyjs purchased a 10e from me, he was using another brand stove and he took my advice on line, pumps, and stove and hes using 50-75% less wood than previously
there are no perfect stoves or products anywhere, top draft or not, the e series is harddd to beat
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Heat Master does have the kit to replace the top draft. Get your dealer to come put it on. Don't blame Heat Master, they will send one out if the dealer asks for it. I've got one on the way right now.
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I assume this top draft kit is only for E models that had the top draft originally? I believe I have a later model that does not have this opening. Am I right?
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You are correct,the standard models would not be compatible with it.
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How does it work Youder?
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You are correct,the standard models would not be compatible with it.
Mr. Sluggo, I do have an E model, but it was one that was manufactured after they saw the problems with the upper opening. My stove is an E, but doesn't have an opening for air above the fire. I think when the found the problem, they just did away with the upper opening alltogether. Therefore, I don't believe this retrofit will work on mine, even though it is an E model.
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Kybaseball, I knew they made the kit.
I thought dave had put yours on, call him and tell him you need it installed. Heatmaster will send it to him just likr Yoder said.
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So countryboyjohn,what did they do to the new e models if they aren't blowing air over the top? Or are they still blowing over the top in a different manner?
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The air box and stuff on the back is all different now, internal flap, faster fan, a few different things. But no top draft. But the bottom draft is improved and working well
For you guys with the 10e, call ur dealer and get your kits
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I did talk to Dave about the kit but at the time him and heatmaster wasn't working together. I even called and talked with Wallie at Heatmaster and he said they would get it worked out. So that is why i was asking what they did to bring it back?
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They don't have top draft now
But dave is still servicing heatmaster stoves, its not a problem to have it fixed, I havent done onr personally but yoder can tell you what it entails
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I was asking Youder what they told him they would do? What are they sending him to do his.
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so if i have a heatmaster 5000 first year. Its awsome by the way love the heat at -30 chill right now and house at 72 anyway am i hearing i should not be removing ash to often? let it fill up?
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I like to see coal bed 4-5 inches deep, I take ashes out of pan once every 10-12 days or so
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Well, I guess this is as good as a place as any to tell on myself. Maybe since I post in a long thread in the Heatmaster room, not many of the other guys will see it. :bash: Anyway, one critical component to cleaning the ash pan is raking the coals. I learned this the hard way, but there is a difference between leveling the coals and raking the coals. When you simply level the coals without raking them, a crust can form down in the coal bed with the fine ash and the smaller pieces of charcoal. This will choke off your air supply from below. I thought I had a fan problem as I would have smoke after 6 or 8 hours of burning, when there clearly shouldn't be after just a cycle or two. And the smoke coming out was very lethargic or anemic. I (and others based on my own descriptions of the symptoms) thought the fan was acting up. After my wife called me at 1 in the afternoon and said the water temp was 114, I thought the fan finally had died. I rushed home, pushed the charred wood aside and plunged my rake into the coal bed. When I did, I noticed this very crusty layer of charcoal/ash. I busted up the crust, shook the crap out of the grates, emptied the ash pan (which had just been emptied the day before) leveled the coals, replaced the wood, and PRESTO, she fired up like a new stove!
I think my problem was combined with going too long between emptying the ash pan and not raking the coals deep enough. Scott's 10-12 days is about spot on. I went 3 or 4 weeks one time to experiment, and I think that piled up the fine ash too much. I started emptying more often after that experiment, but I didn't clean out the grates good enough and that crust formed. So, when you refill, plunge your rake down to the grates and break everything up. The learning curve strikes again!!
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The new design is a tube up the back of the firebox that gets air to the top of the firebox. All the air comes into the back or the ashpan and then some is diverted up. The new 4000's and 6000's have this already, the old 10,000's can be retrofitted.
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Seems to be a lot of different thoughts on the ash box. Try them all and see what works best for you. I have tried about everything and find that several quick light shakes every night works best for me. Shake hard and quick but only about half inch shakes,any more and valuable coals will be lost,any less and a crust will form not allowing air thru the grates. I've been having good luck with this and hope it helps. Before doing this I had a lot of dull fires and the stove would fight for hours to get up to temp. Now the recovery time is a couple minutes!
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Im confused do you need a draft across the top of the fire and from the bottom both to get good burns? So if you only have a forced draft across the top your burn isn't as good.
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Mr. Harley, I'd say the air under the fire is best. Both is second best and only over the fire is least desirable. This is assuming you are using a conventional stove. The air under the fire pushes the heat from the coals into your new firewood and keeps it going better. Air only over the fire seems like pushing a rope.
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pushing a rope, that's funny thanks
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I called HM direct last winter and got my retrofit kit for the top air draft. I waited until a nice warmer day towards the end of last heating season and installed it.
Its roughly a 2.5" square steel tube that has 90deg ends on it in opposite directions (one at the top and one at the bottom)
I had to cut a square hole with a cutoff wheel and jigsaw into the bottom of my plate at the rear of the boiler on the inside to mount it. As in understand it, some units have a plate you can remove and bolt it in, some do not. Mine was kind of a pain, but only took a couple hours to install. It basically drops this tube into the airstream in the ashpan area and directs a portion of the forced air to the top side about 16" up into the firebox.
I will say it does make a difference. I can visually see it working. That heated air instantly ignites the smoke on the top side and looks like a blow torch.
I think its worth the time it takes to install it. Ive seen less smoke than before.
The issue still remains with these units that you just don't get enough oxygen to burn all the smoke on the first cycle to make it super efficient. Which is why when you open the door it REALLY take off good and smokes way less then when the door is shut. Wish we could come up with a way to control this based on particulate matter or something.
Long story short - Get the Topside air kit !!!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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Good info Ryan! Scott, I think I have that plate that he's talking about. Can I retrofit my stove? If so, how do I get a kit? I was thinking that the upper air chamber actually went through the back of the stove. After seeing Ryan's pictures in the other thread about cleaning the air chamber, it looks more like a parascope that grabs air from the main channel and pipes it above the fire.
Let me know Scott! Thanks!
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Mr. Harley, I'd say the air under the fire is best. Both is second best and only over the fire is least desirable. This is assuming you are using a conventional stove. The air under the fire pushes the heat from the coals into your new firewood and keeps it going better. Air only over the fire seems like pushing a rope.
Correction. I reread my post I got my rank mixed up. Both would be best, under second, on top third.