Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: loneranger on January 27, 2014, 10:17:56 AM
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I read a couple of posts made by people that had a optimizer 250 and some of the problems they have had.
I built my own hot water heater about 15 years ago and was forced by insurance companies to change to a certified heater even though I had great reviews from inspectors.
I decided that the downdraft Optimizer 250 was the best built and lowest emissions stove and bought one. Total cost by the time I had it running was about $17,000, me doing the work.
I expected a learning curve and was willing to go through a few problems to get there, but after almost 4 years I am writing because I am not happy. I like the efficiency and the quality of the build but don't like many other things about the stove.
The fellows threads that I read where problems with creosote coming out the firebox door. I thought that my wood was not good enough because it is not hardwood, but to hear of guys burning hardwood having creosote problems tells me there is a design problem for sure with this stove.
I have talked to Rory and Brian Martin the fellow showing the stove on u tube. They have both told me it is just the air settings and possibly my wood not being dry enough.
I am using the driest Fir, Larch mix that is possible, have birch/fir for next winter. Still creosote and water coming out of my fan collector box. When you add wood, unless the stove has burned almost out you get a blast of fire and smoke while doing so and cleaning the vertical 2" pipes coming off the refractory are designed to give a person a really good work out and skinned knuckles. If I kick the bucket my wife will never be able to clean them.
I have another problem to address, the special brick that goes from the fire box to refractory is disintegrating. Good thing I bought a spare with the furnace.
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Let's see, 4 years and I don't think we have ever spoken, that's to bad as maybe I could have helped, at this point I don't think I can as you seem to have made your mind up that somebody put the screws to you.
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Come on slim. Give the guy a chance to vent. Perhaps he's never even heard of you.
To be totally honest, if it weren't for your help and guidance...well, to put it nicely between me and my wife, we would have GIVEN our stove back to P&M by now. You know you've talked me off that ledge at least a dozen times. Maybe this guy needs/wants some of the same help.
From a guy who's been there.
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Slim will help you the best he can if you are willing to listen. Welcome to the board, now lets see if we can get your furnace working like it should be! I do not own a gasser but from everything I have ever read, there are wear items. Like a car that you have to replace the tires every 50,000 miles because they wear from driving on the road the refractory nozzle that you are referring to is the same as tires on a car. The more fuel(or miles) that you put through the unit the sooner you will have to replace the nozzle(tires). So this is perfectly normal and is to be expected when buying a gasser. I am not familiar with burning 'larch' or 'fir' but I am going to go out on a ledge here and guess that these types of wood, even with low water moisture content, have some saps and other things inside the wood that cause creosote build up. I bet if you switched to another type of wood, say dry beech or dry oak you would have your creosote problems go away. As far as cleaning the unit I have heard of people making up some tools to make the job easier. Namely a brush that attaches to the end of a cordless drill. Simply push the brush through the exchanger tube, spin up the brush and pull out while spinning. Good luck .
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I talked to Brian a couple of times in the first season. Don't know whom you are. Brian on the u tube video is not very accurate, he told me I needed to burn nice dry hardwood, so I got some really well seasoned birch. It was a bit better but nothing like he had the stove running, wiping the ash off the inside of the firebox door . He ran the stove himself and said it took a while to find out exactly what the air setting were. I have worked at getting them to what I feel are optimum but high humidity is not this stoves friend. I was also told that the stove could be run on solar. Foolish me all I had to do was add up the amount of watts used per day and the amount of sunny days we have, even with my huge battery bank and 390 watt solar panels I cant run the stove for more than 2 days and my inverter is squealing. This the BC not the prairies where the sun shines more in he winter. The stove I built was naturally aspirated and updraft. This stove would be much more efficient if the refractory was behind the firebox. The vertical 2" pipes could be made easier to brush out, I am sure. The absolutely best thing about the stove is I will never hear my neighbours complain about wood smoke smell. One of my neighbours has a updraft stove and you can smell smoke when it first gets going.
Just read your new post Slim and James, thank you. I would have to truck oak or beach in, not an option. There is some birch around here. I own 160 acres of hill side. About 2% birch. I could use all birch and be out in 1 to 2 years.
Believe me I know about wear and tear. I am was a diamond drill contractor and built almost all my own equipment and did all my own repairs. Like I said I built my own stove. 10 to 20% more wood is easier and less expensive than this stove PERIOD.
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loneranger -
Why don't you post a list of your problems and maybe we can knock 'em out one by one? I don't know if slim'll be real happy with me writing this - but if there was ever a problem to be had with the 250, I've experienced it. Seriously. To his credit, though, he's been the one to help me through pretty much all of them. Then there are a number of guys who think this stove is the cat's meow because they've never had even one problem with theirs.
So, what I'm trying to suggest is that between the bunch of us, maybe we can get you back going again?!
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Do you have the new style door on your airbox or a bunch of sheetmetal screws? What are your air settings now? How bad is the nozzle? What is your heat load on the boiler? As randy said, we can get you going in the right direction, we just need some info from you.
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Thanks for the offer of help.
I could still not be doing something quite right and someone could give me a suggestion to steer me out of my grief.
I have mentioned my problems un my posts.
The flames and smoke coming out the door when adding wood is likely the worst. I can put up with lots but when it happens to my wife it really gets me upset.
I have been cleaning the stove every week this year and it really helps. I used to do it every second week. The horizontal pipe is easy and hasn't ever given me any problems. Once I had to use a tiger torch to burn some creosote out of the horizontal pipes. The wood was pitchy fir and even with the down draft second burn it caused problems.
The vertical pipes probably since that episode have been very hard to run the brush through. I tried to burn the remaining crust out of the 2" vertical pipes but no success. The original cable brush rod is very bent now from my pushing and pulling the brush through. I have built a 1/2 pipe rod that works well on the horizontal and I have tried to make work for the vertical pipes but the collector above the pipes makes everything difficult. I built another cable rod and attached it to my drill but the torque was too much for the cable. In the spring I plan on soaking the vertical pipes with diesel and hopefully cleaning out this baked on creosote.
My fan collector cover is held on with 5/16 screws. A couple of these got so rusty I had to replace them already, but that is not a big deal. What is is the fact that creosote builds up in the air box on the top of the firebox and runs down into the fan collector causing the fan air damper to stick shut and not open. I have had to clean this out twice this winter, the last time this morning. That is why I came to this site, pissed. The last time I cleaned it out I drilled a 1/8 hole in the air damper to allow air to in to keep the fire going because it was dyeing if the stove had no demand for over 2 hours. I also adjusted my thermostats in out 2 buildings so that one or the other would demand heat within 2 hours. But when the weather is around 0 there isn't demand to have the stove cut in. I also adjusted the water temp differential to 2 degrees from4. I think this may cause more creosote because the fire box doesn't have time to get good and hot. It was happening before though too and we don't have to go out and light the fire as often now.
If we lived in an area with more hardwood it would likely be better but you have to deal with what you have.
So if you guys can think of anything that may help please post.
Thanks
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Hi loneranger,
Do you know what your heat load is? Setting a differential at 2 or even 4 degrees to keep the fire from going out seems like you have a very light load. I have never had my fire die out even when it has been sitting 6 or more hours. I have never run a lower differential than 10 degrees.
A very light heat load may be a root of many of your creosote and other issues.
I'm on my second winter and pushed many cords through my stove already. This is a great place to learn and by golly we need each other's expertise!
Every stove has it's finicky issues but together I think we can solve them.
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Thanks guys for the encouraging words, I had a bad start to the day,it has something to do with counting on a 23 year old to be where he is supposed to be but not, ever been there? Loneranger, if you are willing to try, I would put money on it that WE can make it happen, the stove is a piece of machinery, it will work if you let it, would you like to try?
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loneranger
i too feel your pains,but i'm seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. this is my first season w/ a 250 and it is a huge learning curve. this site has been a tremendous help as well as slim. to be brutally honest, if not for his help i think there would be multiple(mine included)250's sitting on brian martins front door. from all the post i've read on the 250, that rear airbox cover needs to be updated to new one as well as the front door gaskets need to be updated to the silcone style. slim can assist with that. from my experience, i try not to leave loading door or lower door open to long as it causes smoke and moisture to build in rear airbox. if i'm cleaning the stove i actually take that cover off and that has helped alot w/ the discoloring and build up in the box. the new gaskets were a big help as well. as far as nozzle issues-good luck. my nozzle is totally worn out after 3 months and i played by the rules w/ it. i will save my honest comments for a bit longer, but i have sent brian martin 2 emails w/ pictures in the last 3 weeks and i haven't got one response, i told him at least get back to me and tell me to pound sand,at least it would be something. if you read some post by coolidge he has some good insights on using fire bricks as a fix above old nozzle. hang in there-we are all in portage and main therapy sessions.
ps also agree 100% w/ you on smoke/fire issues out front loading door. trimmed my beard more than once!
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Are you guys getting these flare ups out of the front door when the fan is running? If so just put a switch on the front of the unit that cuts power to everything. Flip the switch off when you are about to load, flip it back on when your done.
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In reality Honda, the flareups occur when the loading door is opened with the blower off, there is no air coming in and then you open the door resulting in flashback, less smoke and no flashback occurs when the blower is on as it is giving the fire the air it needs, much more predictable, remember there is a lot of refractory brick lining in our unit that creates those gases, leaving the blower on helps control those gases
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slim
exactly right, i usually check temp prior to opening front door if fan isnt running just for that reason. a few bad timings and stove had just shut off and i opened the door. that will wake you up in the morning!!
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Got it, lack of oxygen in the fire triangle. Then instead of adding a switch to cut the blowers I would suggest adding an over ride switch to turn the blower on prior to loading. Or just back away with the door in front of you as you are opening it and wait for the smoke to either light off or dissipate and then go about your loading. No offense ranger but sometimes I have a hard time wrapping my head around peoples 'complaints' like this. If you want a heating device that is highly controlled install a gas oil boiler in the house and call the gas guy to come fill up your tank. If you want to save a lot of money and be self sufficient then you have to understand you are working with a piece of machinery that can't be made fail safe. Would you complain about your gas powered wood splitter cutting your hand off because you left your hand in front of the ram when you pulled the lever?
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Wow, this thread has made me feel a little better about my problems. But I haven't seen anyone with a 250 have to re-line the firebox with new 1/4" steel plate to cover 3 leaks and paper thin walls that have been eaten away over a lousy 5 years. I will say my E2300 is running like a champ right now, however.
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lone ranger if you go to your local hardware store buy a wire wheel brush for a drill and a
fibreglass chimney brush rod(one of the 5' sections that you can thread together)
cut one end of the rod off with the threaded fitting, drill out the fibreglass, fit the end of the drill brush
into the hole and give it a little tack with a welder. Thread that back onto the other end of the rod.
You now have a brush you can put in your drill that will flex enough to feed down into the vertical tubes!
When the brush wears out just grind the tack weld and put in a new one. That is how I keep mine clean
but I do not get near that much creosote buildup just dust.
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Thanks for all the advice. I do believe that my stove is too big for the temperature coefficient in this area. I heat our house that is 3400 sq ft my work shop that is 2000 sq with a 16' ceiling and an 800 sq ft guest house on the end of the shop. Sounds like lots but if it is around 0 C the heater doesn't work hard enough. Brian Martin told me to open a dead zone. I have done that a few times just to try it but I hate heating the outdoors.
I am not talking through my hat. I built my own stove for a cost of $600 in 1997. It used 4 cords of wood a winter heating about half of what I heat with the optimizer which burns about 6 cords. My home built stove took almost no care. Shovel the ash out every 2 or 3 weeks and run a brush down the chimney 1 in the middle of the winter and again in the spring. No nozzle to worry about no vertical pipes and the creosote would roll off the sides of the heater and burn up when I really opened it up.
I am a bit embarrassed when my close friend who has a house very similar to ours says he burns 2 1/2 cords and never has any problems with his little Blaze King stove made in Penticton. They won a world award for the best inside stove in the world.
I spent a fortune on this stove so I could have a clean house, heat 2 buildings 100' apart and not have my neighbours complain about smoke in the air.
I have it now and have worked hard to get it optimized, the reason for its name. I would like to get the most out of my investment without heating the outdoors and burning another 4 or 5 cords.
I think I will have to train my wife not to open the stove when it is just finished its burn as suggested. That will make life a bit better. She is a fire bug and loves feeding the stove except when it erupts.
What is different about the updated air box cover? My door gasket is still in good shape but if they have a silicone gasket I should get one. I built a silicone gasket for the stove I built. It worked good but was a pain to make. I need more brushes anyhow. they are getting really beat. I have considered trying to make some out of cat winch cable but haven't tried yet. The quality of the steel is the best for abrasion resistance.
Do you guys know of a picture of that air box cover? Is it easily exchangeable? Does it have a definite advantage?
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Hey,
It's been awhile!!
The thing still heats my house, but it's a pain in the ****. I got a soft ball or better size hole where the nozzle was. I clean every 7-8 days. But, it works. Thoroughly disgusted as far as that goes.
Sad thing is, I could have easily gotten away with a non-gasifier!
Spring of the year, I will make contact w/Karl K , (close by) and get a new nozzle. Cut it in, and replace as needed.
Maybe put some cut fire bricks in for temp fix.
I don't get around too many folks, or spend much time on this machine, but I suggest staying away from gasifiers, if you can. They are 100% a pain you know where! Maintenance intensive!
Don't wish to stir the pot, been burning wood all my life, properly! Dry, the best.
Sent water sample in first year, (2 yrs ago) still waiting on results! Must be good!
Not at all happy,happy, happy!!
I believe that I've got it beat lately, as I mix any and all wood, dry and wet together, loading whenever it needs, or when I'm near it. Half and half dry to wet. What's the difference, I figure, I got to clean it so often....tires and phone poles next!
I cover the big A** hole in the floor with a nice big chunk of green wood and she works OK. Even gasifies.
Thought I would cover the hole with a steel plate, never got around to it.
What it is, is a product brought to market without enough real world testing. We are the geaunea pigs willing to pay for thouroughly untested heating appliance. Heck, I feel I'm in seat#1 row#1. I don't have unlimited coin to play again.
I said on a post a few years ago, I'd rather cut and and stack 3-4 more cord a year, than go through this bull**** cleaning ritual every week. She get's very un-efficient anyway if I neglect cleaning, which I do, on occasion. Sooo I probably ain''t saving wood anyway.
Would have been so much better off with that ml-36. Anybody want to trade...opti junk 250 for ml-36?? Maybe the smoke cops are on ya?
Bill
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Thanks Slim Jim, I bet the flash back from unburnt gasses cause my nozzle to break down. A high impact of gasses coming from the refractory could cause a concussion severe enough to crack the brick. May have two problems solved by making sure the gasses are gone before opening.
One other thing that I have done that helped a bit is, I drilled a hole about 1/8 in the bottom of the air intake damper box. Water did drain for a while and when it quit I should have figured out that the hole was likely plugged with creosote. I drilled it to help keep the fire going between demands. The only thing with this is it is a trade off. I do smell some smoke for a while now after the fan has gone off. Lack of air and I think it may also cause a bit more creosote. Although probably negligible.
Thanks for the advice renoman. I think I will try my cable idea first and then head for the hardware store if my idea doesn't work. I will post about the cable cleaner after I build it. Have to wait for the time to do my prototype.
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loneranger
if you have a hole drilled in airbox it will definetely add to your creosote/moisture issue. slim will varify, but its allowing that smoke and moisture to come back into that airbox and has no where to go but get trapped in the box and start the nasty process. i know why you did it but maybe we can figure out why the fire is going out. what are the temps you are keeping living areas at? is it possible to keep rooms warmer or crack some windows a bit?
i will try to post you a pic of new cover. slim will hopefully advise on hole theory. i know air leaks are the devil.
the gasket update is easy and takes no more than an hour at best.
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How ya making out, loneranger?
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I must be lucky because my 250 has run like a champion. This was my first owb so I didn't have any old habits to kick to run this thing....maybe that has helped me. I did some thorough research and initially pulled the trigger on a Wooddoctor but thankfully I paid for it on my credit card so after 6 weeks of getting the run around from them, I was able to file a grievance and recover my money. 3 weeks later my 250 was sitting on my property. The only issue I had was within the air box but as some of you have seen from my post last week, I hadn't touched it since owning this (3rd season now).
This flare up complaint I don't understand. I never turn the blower off when loading. Each time I go out to load, I open the door and step back and to the side. Did I get surprised the first time? Hell yeah but a little common sense has saved me since then.
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Good post Jrider, common sense is really all it takes, we know that we will never please everybody but tell me of another company that pays a knowledgable tech to answer questions on this forum, perhaps those guys would be better off with a different brand and then they could try to figure it out on thier own!
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I get a little taken aback when I hear of folks having issues with their 250's.
The three of us here in mid-Michigan could not be more pleased with our units. We've all ran conventional units in the past and wouldn't think of going back to them. 45% less wood consumption certainly justifies the 15 minutes spent weekly doing routine maintenance.
We all put just enough fuel in them to last until the next "feeding". We clean the heat exchange tubes and the secondary burn chamber once weekly. Basically a throw and go system for us. We try to maintain a 2 - 4" ash bed and we run our temps at 188* on and 195* off. Much, much less build up on the vertical heat exchange tubes with temps up that high.
I have friends with other manufacturers gassers. Three of the four of them are way more finicky than ours.
My one bud with an Empyre 400 runs his the same way we do. He has no issues with his either. The Empyre's design is very similar to P&M's.
Any of you guys who are having issues with your units can feel free to pm or call me any time. I think you all have my cell number now. I'm probably going to parrot almost everything that "the Slim one" has relayed to you though.
A product that I think really helps with any boiler, and especially a gasser is ProFormer. I bought some from Scott and let the other 250 users try it out. They ordered some from our local Empyre dealer and use it every day.....or at least every time they remember. :bash: It helps keep the build in the exchange tubes and the ledge at the bottom of the loading door drier and have more of a powdery consistency.
Might want to check with SlimJim to see whether or not it might void your warranties though.
Marty
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Freakin awesome post
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Slim I'm wondering what your thoughts are about pro former? Should I give it a try?
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It won't hurt Randy and won't affect warranty, if you like go ahead and give it a try!
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Would you complain about your gas powered wood splitter cutting your hand off because you left your hand in front of the ram when you pulled the lever?
A lot would, which explains the rise of ambulance chasing lawyers.
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Would you complain about your gas powered wood splitter cutting your hand off because you left your hand in front of the ram when you pulled the lever?
A lot would, which explains the rise of ambulance chasing lawyers.