Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: yellowriver on February 05, 2014, 06:52:25 PM

Title: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: yellowriver on February 05, 2014, 06:52:25 PM
I have a Woodmaster 434. I bought this new in 2001. I think my heat loss is to much. The burner is about 80' from house with 1" pex in insulatd pipe 24" deep. My dail says 166 F the upgrade digital stack switch says 169 F and the outlet water is 168 F with heat gun. Now to inside the house. Feed line inside the house is 150 F. 145 F at the waterheater and 160 F at heat exchanger. Pex line going back to wood burner is 107 F in the house and 104 F at woodburner. The boiler in house reads 138 F both with the gauge and heat gun. I listed all the readings in order as they are hooked up. This stove has the orignal Taco water pump. Thanks for the help.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: Scott7m on February 05, 2014, 06:56:34 PM
Sounds like pump is to slow for one thing with such large delta t

but methods of checking temps can vary greatly
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: yellowriver on February 05, 2014, 08:52:38 PM
Need to take heat gun back tomorrow. Any other heat readings help me with problem or do I just plan on getting a new pump and hope? THANKS   
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: Scott7m on February 05, 2014, 09:41:04 PM
R u taking readings on the same materials on the same angle and all that?   u can't check a metal fitting here and a copper tube there and a pex tube here and learn anything

Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: RSI on February 05, 2014, 10:00:19 PM
107 will barely feel warm if you hang on to the pipe. If is really that cold you have a flow problem. Has it always been this way? If not, did it slowly happen or come suddenly?

It could be the pump is undersized if it has always been the same. If not, it could be an air lock or heat exchanger getting plugged.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: yellowriver on February 06, 2014, 05:08:21 AM
It seems like I don't have as much hot water on tap like I use to. 3 years ago put in new water heater and redid side arm. There was some limeing up in some steel fittings so now its all copper or pex. Checked it last year and all looked good. I have always figured kids getting older they use more cloths and hot water in shower. 7 years ago put on addition with in floor heat so after water goes threw in house boiler it goes to switch valve that returns it to outdoorboiler or makes it go threw mixing valve that is set at 120 and then threw 18 x 45 concrete addition. Then it returns at that 107 F. When I checked the temps with heat gun I tried to keep same distance and angle but diffrent maiterials was hard to control. Then I did the addition I added sq footage but i got ried off 2 old doors and 2 large windows and got things insulated better. Any more ideas would be great its -14 outside this morning. Thanks 
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: RSI on February 06, 2014, 10:00:09 AM
I wouldn't fully trust the reading from an infrared thermometer on copper or pex pipe.

When you checked it, is it possible the floor heat had just come on and was flushing the cold water out of the floor? How do you have it setup to run through the floor? Can you post a diagram?
Can you turn off the floor heat and check the return temp again? If your floor circuit is really restrictive that may be part of the problem.

Where are you located?
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: ITO on February 06, 2014, 10:00:56 AM
 I would want to backflush my HX if it were me, force any air out of the system at the same time, those are the cheapest, quickest fixes there could be, move on from there if you still have problem.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on February 06, 2014, 11:49:50 AM
When you take readings with an IR gun you need to take them all using the same material or your readings mean nothing. If you are reading any type of metal with the gun you need to make sure that you wrap that section you are checking with masking tape and let the masking tape heat up for a minute or two before checking the temp. You also need to hold the sensor right on the material. My gun reads a 1x1 inch square at three inches away and a 3x3 inch  square at 1 foot away. If you are reading pipe and don't hold the sensor on the pipe you will be reading not only the pipe but whatever is beyond the pipe as well. Also it is best to take a reading from something that has been cover with pipe insulation. Peel back the insulation to take the reading.

I would be interested in purchasing a quick reading contact thermometer. They must have them out there. I found this http://www.zorotools.com/g/00097854/k-G5213083?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gclid=CIjYlK2VuLwCFWRk7AodIiIAHA (http://www.zorotools.com/g/00097854/k-G5213083?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&kw={keyword}&gclid=CIjYlK2VuLwCFWRk7AodIiIAHA) but don't know how good it is.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: ITO on February 06, 2014, 12:32:46 PM
 Honda, this is what I use at work, attaches to my meter, works fast and accurate, before you say it I know it's not cheap.
http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-80PK-10-Clamp-Temperature-Probe/dp/B003RYZI9O (http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-80PK-10-Clamp-Temperature-Probe/dp/B003RYZI9O)
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on February 06, 2014, 12:37:21 PM
Good grief, I bet its accurate though. I would be happy with something that might not be totally accurate( +/- 5 degrees I would say?)on true temperature but was consistent on readings.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: mikemike on February 06, 2014, 04:42:38 PM
dumb question is there a way that someone could check pressure to see if a pump was bad ? i know that these are not pressurized systems but there must be some kind of pressure
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: jerkash on February 06, 2014, 05:39:13 PM
The best way to check and see if a pump is bad - Every person that owns a OWF should have a spare pump - Take the old one off and try the new one!!  ;D
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: yellowriver on February 06, 2014, 06:37:16 PM
Plumber supplier is going to drop me off a new pump tomarrow. Not sure of brand but he said it is the same as 007 taco but this one is a three speed. ITU could you explain the HX backflash a little better? The infloor was calling for heat when I did the test but I think I does most the time. The 1" pex runs to a manifold were it goes to 3 seperate 1/2 " pexs loops threw the floor. Thanks all for the help and glad I did not buy a heat gun. I was using a instant read meat temp and it read the same just took a little longer. Thanks again. Oh i live in NE Iowa & more cold next week.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: Scott7m on February 06, 2014, 07:08:54 PM
Plumber supplier is going to drop me off a new pump tomarrow. Not sure of brand but he said it is the same as 007 taco but this one is a three speed. ITU could you explain the HX backflash a little better? The infloor was calling for heat when I did the test but I think I does most the time. The 1" pex runs to a manifold were it goes to 3 seperate 1/2 " pexs loops threw the floor. Thanks all for the help and glad I did not buy a heat gun. I was using a instant read meat temp and it read the same just took a little longer. Thanks again. Oh i live in NE Iowa & more cold next week.

the 007 is to small for most installs....   

Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on February 06, 2014, 07:11:54 PM
Wow, your saying that your running a taco 007 as your circ from the boiler? If so I guarantee this pump is grossly undersized. Do your self a favor and google taco pump sizing. It is a taco document that guides you step by step how to size your pump for your system. Don't just guess what pump you need and waste your money. Do it right.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: mlappin on February 06, 2014, 07:37:27 PM
Heres a link to a PDF file from Taco containing the whole poop on pump selection.
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf (http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf)
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: yellowriver on February 07, 2014, 05:31:13 AM
well that made me really confused. I will ruffly have 260' of 1" pipe after fittings and that not counting the 1/2'' infloor heat tubing when that is kicked on. I know I can return pump but how big do I go? Thanks guys
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: Scott7m on February 07, 2014, 06:40:24 AM
You mean your tubing in floor dont have its own circulator??

Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on February 07, 2014, 08:49:28 AM
Yellow, just read through the document first. Then go back and follow it step by step to calculate your head for the system. It's really quite easy if you just go step by step. You must have a separate circ for the radiant if you have a tempering valve on it. If that is true no need to add that loop in the calculations since it doesn't effect the water you are pumping with the boiler circ.
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: yellowriver on February 07, 2014, 06:21:28 PM
True there is a tempering valve but there is also a large valve that has a themostat wire that opens and closes as the addition calls for heat. So no there is not a seperate pump for the infloor. The outdoor boil water is the water going threw the 3  -  1/2'' loops. Right or wrong this is the way it was setup and it seems to work as long as its no -10 or colder. Thanks again guys. Happy cutten
Title: Re: New guy needs help with heat loss!
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on February 07, 2014, 07:23:48 PM
I understand that the system may work but is not nearly as efficient as it should be and is really not good for the boiler to be reviecing such cold water return temps.