Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: kybaseball on February 09, 2014, 03:58:04 PM
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After getting caught not having a generator ready just in case power goes out. It happened for 3 days. I have got the generator now so next step is how to do this. I have watch 2 different ways to do this and was wondering how you guys do it?
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I have been installing the interlock kits lately just because it is nice to be able to use any circuits when the power is out. The only thing you have to be careful of is not turning everything on at once. Turn the cicruits on one a time and only the circuit you need.
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I have been installing the interlock kits lately just because it is nice to be able to use any circuits when the power is out. The only thing you have to be careful of is not turning everything on at once. Turn the cicruits on one a time and only the circuit you need.
+1
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I don't do it to 'code'. I have a dedicated Generator plug outside. I run a 10/3 wire and backfeed a 30 amp 220 breaker. I shut down my main breaker and then throw my generator breaker. I shut off my oven and drier breakers so no one accidentally runs them. I have put an amp meter on each leg from the generator and even with the well pump starting and my fha fan starting I don't bump over 18 amps. We try to run as few lights as possible while on generator power.
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I was reading that if you tie it straight to the breaker box and don't use a interlock switch you can be arrested.
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I don't do it to 'code'. I have a dedicated Generator plug outside. I run a 10/3 wire and backfeed a 30 amp 220 breaker. I shut down my main breaker and then throw my generator breaker. I shut off my oven and drier breakers so no one accidentally runs them. I have put an amp meter on each leg from the generator and even with the well pump starting and my fha fan starting I don't bump over 18 amps. We try to run as few lights as possible while on generator power.
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Don't do it like this. This is how people get killed!!
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The safe way is a transfer switch, but the cheap way is with a plug outside. The main breaker ABSOLUTELY must be shut off first if you back feed into your house.
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I have a gen tran..OWB hooked up to it as well..All i do is is fire the generator up and flip the switches ..What Belknap posted..Its a fairly new thing ..Both work slick
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A manual transfer switch is not that expensive, safe and legal. If you think about it you only need a few circuits for a generator to supply critical load, if you can afford it switch the whole panel but most of us don't need to spend a whole bunch on a few circuits and do it right, just my opinion.
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What's the difference in a interlock and transfer switch? I have a transfer switch (i think?) on my panel that prevents back feeding the power lines and still powers my breaker boxes.
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My understanding, an interlock is a manual transfer switch, some times referred to a double throw switch. The switch is on commercial power in one position and generator power on the 2nd position.
A transfer switch monitors commercial power and when it goes down, starts the generator, and transfers the power supply to generator power
until it senses commercial power again, then transfers back to commercial.
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I'm going to be using an Interlock kit. My generator is big and old so an automatic transfer switch is pointless but I haven't found a normal manual transfer switch yet that allows me to switch over more than 50 amps. My generator is big enough to run every circuit in my house at the same time (and that's my little generator!) and I plan on hard wiring it to my panel. I can hard wire it to back feed a large double pole breaker near the top of my panel and install one of these neat Interlock kits on my panel at the same time. The Interlock kits are basically a piece of metal on the face of the panel that moves with the position of the main breaker and a big double pole breaker near the top of the panel. It's designed in such a way that only the main or the big double pole can be on and neither can be on at the same time. They're pretty slick and far cheaper than having the power company come out and pull my meter so I can slide a transfer switch into the main service cable.
http://www.interlockkit.com/ (http://www.interlockkit.com/)
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In other words an interlock is "dummy" proof and does nothing else different from back feeding a double breaker other then keeping a dummy from not throwing the main breaker. Sometimes in life you need to use you head in life.
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most power companies dont give a rats ass if you electrocute yourself or blow up your generator because you or someone forgets and throws the main feed back on while the genertor is hooke up...but they get mighty angry if you back feed the pwoer lines while one of their lineman is holding what should be a "dead" wire and you kill him or her
when the power goes out in my area and the repair crew comes along to work on the wires and they see my lights on...they almost always pull in to see how my lights are working (how they are hooked up) i can only imaging the flashing lights that would be in my lane in a matter of minutes if they seen something "not quite legal"
stand by power for me...do it right or dont do it...simple as that.
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I have a generator that automatically comes on when the power is lost. My OWB is tied to it. Like WillieG, if the POCO shows up investigating the loss of power and seeing my lights on, they'll have a look to see how it's connected. We had a pro install it due to "code" and frankly, it's the smart thing to do. It doesn't bother me they want to investigate the connections, their life is on the line. I don't need a manslaughter/negligent homicide charge hanging over my head. Roger
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I have a transfer switch that I bought new with the outdoor plug for $150. I put it in last summer and have used it twice. It is so much safer than backfeeding.
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Okay, so I have a Interlock switch apparently. I had it installed when I added my garage to my panel. I was getting a new panel (upgrading from 100 to 200A service) I think I only spent $180 on the switch because it was built into the panel. It can only be in one position at a time.
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http://www.interlockkit.com/images/wirediagram03a.jpg (http://www.interlockkit.com/images/wirediagram03a.jpg)
Interlock Kit. Easy Peasey... :thumbup:
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I doubt the interlockkit that is shown on this post would satisfy my power company since it looks like just a mechanical block on the main breaker that would be easily defeated and does not actually disconnect the commercial power source.
The double throw switch they require at a minimum only allows power to be fed INTO the main breaker from one source, either commercial or the generator. Here is Eaton's version. Judd, most electrical supply companies make such a switch well above 50 amps.
http://www.eaton.com/EN/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/ElectricalDistribution/SwitchesandDisconnects/SafetySwitches/DoubleThrow/GeneralDuty/index.htm (http://www.eaton.com/EN/Eaton/ProductsServices/Electrical/ProductsandServices/ElectricalDistribution/SwitchesandDisconnects/SafetySwitches/DoubleThrow/GeneralDuty/index.htm)
The automatic transfer switch works in a similar fashion, it just does this switching internally, but only allows the power to feed from only one source, where the double throw switch requires a person to physically throw the switch themselves.
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I like the idea of backing feeding because I can turn off and on breakers as I choose to where we are in the house(we have 3 floors). My breaker box has a place that I can put a pad lock to keep anybody from throwing the main breaker back on. I am going to ask my electric company if they are ok with that. I don't want anybody hurt and sure don't want any trouble.
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While this isn't a double throw design, this is what the box stores are selling as a 200 amp transfer switch:
Reliance Outdoor 200 Amp Transfer Switch (http://www.lowes.com/pd_383876-48019-TWB2006DR_0__?productId=4712827&Ntt=transfer+switch&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dtransfer%2Bswitch&facetInfo=)
It looks like this:
(http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/815181/815181010287.jpg)
If you look closely, it's nothing more than a small electrical panel with a 200 amp main breaker, a 60 amp generator breaker, and an interlock kit installed. It even has blanks for additional breakers. The fine print says it can be used as a feed through to another panel or you can use it as the main panel (which then makes it nothing more than a regular panel with an interlock kit installed). That same kit is still too small for my big generator which is capable of over 100 amps. With the price of a double throw being upwards of $750, an Interlock is more than likely what I'm going for.
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i have mine like hondaracer with one exception, i pull the meter.
My brother in law is a lineman and it has their blessing. he told me to call the electric coop and ask them to call me when the power came back on and they would put a new lock to replace the one I cut off.
At least that is how it works in semo, I know some places are a lot stricter
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here in Ontario you must have a generator supply panel whether it is manual or automatic. I
have a 60 amp panel off of my main panel with all the stuff in it I want to run from my generator including
my shop. It is a manual throw which will not allow both sides to b on at once. one thing the hydro company wants
is what a generator panel provides that both the hot feeds and the neutral become isolated by this type of panel switch.
if you simply backfeed with your main breaker off your neutral is still connected to the grid and power can
sometimes backfeed through the neutral and you could end up severely injuring someone if not killing them!
Hydro is not something to fool with it can be very dangerous and I don't think anyone wants to be responsible for another person life or death for that matter. A few dollars out of your pocket isn't worth killing someone over in my mind! Put in a generator panel with the proper switching device.
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:post: ^
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Renoman, could you please explain to me how the nec approved interlock kits isolate the neutral? The difference between a Panel back fed with an interlock switch and one without is the interlock keeps an idiot from having both on at the same time. Like I said before sometimes in life you need to be able to use your head.
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I believe Reno's post refers to a manual transfer switch which does isolate the neutral, if you were a lineman or a family member of one you would easily accept that a transfer switch which also disconnects the neutral (manual or automatic) is the best choice, utility companies should all require this just for their own liability.
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Isn't the neutral grounded right after the meter and on the pole?
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I have a manual transfer switch, push the handle up for utility power, pull it down for generator power.
Shop around and you can find em cheaper than listed at Home Depot.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-100150463&skwcid&kwd=&ci_sku=100150463&ci_kw=&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fused-Emergency-Power-Transfer-Switch-TC10324R/100150463?cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-100150463&skwcid&kwd=&ci_sku=100150463&ci_kw=&ci_gpa=pla&ci_src=17588969)
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Isn't the neutral grounded right after the meter and on the pole?
The ground and the neutral are two different things after the service point, that's the customer owned connection. The utility side rarely uses a neutral, the grounding conductor is a mystery during a power outage, too many variables, all lines get intentionally grounded during emergency work. Way off the thread, sorry.
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ITO, Yes I know that the ground and the neutral are two different parts to the electrical system. It was stated that if a transfer switch or interlock switch(or straight backfeeding with the main off) was going to have the potential to 'backfeed' the neutral back to the grid. But the neutral is actually grounded right outside the home, plus grounded at the pole. Additionally the utility company when working on lines while in a storm will ground all of their work as to not cause one of them to be hurt by someone backfeeding the grid.
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ITO, Yes I know that the ground and the neutral are two different parts to the electrical system. It was stated that if a transfer switch or interlock switch(or straight backfeeding with the main off) was going to have the potential to 'backfeed' the neutral back to the grid. But the neutral is actually grounded right outside the home, plus grounded at the pole. Additionally the utility company when working on lines while in a storm will ground all of their work as to not cause one of them to be hurt by someone backfeeding the grid.
Don't know if this makes sense or not, but when we milked cows we had a stray voltage problem, guy from the power company came out and found a "bad" ground on our system that looked like new. He claimed sometimes the grounds from the utility can be have more juice on em than the hots.
Single phase is pretty simple, you start getting into wild legs on three phase and things change. On our delta phase at the farm as long as the "common", "neutral" or "third leg" (have heard em all used) is grounded its a ground, if it loses ground it's now hot, hence the wild leg designation.
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I agree. My point is ultimately that shutting off the main breaker and backfeeding the panel is no different than a transfer switch(without and isolation panel) and an interlock switch as long as you do shut down the main breaker.
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On a normal single phase residential installation, shutting off the main breaker does NOT disconnect the neutral or the ground conductors, only the power conductors . Most should have two 120V hot leads and the main breaker only disconnects those two cables coming from the meter box into your main panel box.
You don't need to satisfy anyone on this OWF site of your installation of a generator, you must satisfy the requirements of your local utility provider! Regardless of whether you have codes or not where you live, if you are not sure of the requirements at your location, you should contact them before potentially backfeeding into their system. If they are reputible, they have a policy/procedure for this. Most will disconnect the commericial side when they find a generator not installed correctly and won't turn commercial power back on until the generator install is corrected.
God forbid, if one of their employees gets hurt or killed, and they trace it back to someone backfeeding into their system, I would not want to be that person! There are wayyyy too many lawyers and the utility company usually has many good ones that will make it their mission to find someone else responsible for something like this other than their client!
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My brother in law has mentioned blowing up a few generators that were back fed into the system without the meter being pulled.
When they turn the transformer back on, the 8,000 volts (I think that is right) doesn't do much good for a generator.
He says it doesn't bother them to blow one up if someone doesn't care enough to safely hook them up.
He likes pulling the meter because he says just throwing the breaker isn't always enough, He says sometimes neutrals carry voltage.
Just repeating what I have been told and he has been a lineman for 25 years and works with it every day, climbing poles etc..
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My brother in law has mentioned blowing up a few generators that were back fed into the system without the meter being pulled.
He likes pulling the meter because he says just throwing the breaker isn't always enough, He says sometimes neutrals carry voltage.
Just repeating what I have been told and he has been a lineman for 25 years and works with it every day, climbing poles etc..
If neutral carried power it would go straight to ground, thats the way the U.S. power grid works anyway.
I have mine hooked up same as honda, works perfect. If you have to ask how power works you should pay an electrician to do it for you and he will follow the "code".
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My brother in law has mentioned blowing up a few generators that were back fed into the system without the meter being pulled.
He likes pulling the meter because he says just throwing the breaker isn't always enough, He says sometimes neutrals carry voltage.
Just repeating what I have been told and he has been a lineman for 25 years and works with it every day, climbing poles etc..
If neutral carried power it would go straight to ground, thats the way the U.S. power grid works anyway.
I have mine hooked up same as honda, works perfect. If you have to ask how power works you should pay an electrician to do it for you and he will follow the "code".
My brother in law has mentioned blowing up a few generators that were back fed into the system without the meter being pulled.
When they turn the transformer back on, the 8,000 volts (I think that is right) doesn't do much good for a generator.
He says it doesn't bother them to blow one up if someone doesn't care enough to safely hook them up.
He likes pulling the meter because he says just throwing the breaker isn't always enough, He says sometimes neutrals carry voltage.
Just repeating what I have been told and he has been a lineman for 25 years and works with it every day, climbing poles etc..
If the ground is good that is, like I already pointed out, our stray voltage problem was due to a perfectly good looking ground, no discoloration, no corrosion, etc.
The manual transfer switch I bought is a three pole, hot, neutral, hot.