Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: topgoat on February 12, 2014, 02:41:48 PM
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I am looking to buy a wood furnace to buy to heat my home and shop. Who is the best supplier to buy from.
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Not to be too short, but start reading!
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Shaver.
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Loaded question!! :bash:
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Shaver.
Victor forgot to take his meds today so please ignore his post and start reading, seriously its not a one or the other answer and their are variables like a knowledgeable dealer to install or at least be there when you need them.
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I am looking to buy a wood furnace to buy to heat my home and shop. Who is the best supplier to buy from.
Good luck with that question
Buy both one to heat the shop and the other to heat the home. ;D
They are both very good stoves they all have their issues eventually it's all on how well you maintain and what quality wood you burn in them. IMO
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Are we really going there again? I'm almost thinking that this is some kind of __________ wing conspiracy, why is it that P+M seems to always be compared to CB. Come on Scott or Yoder, your turn to speak common sense.
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I am with you slim, it seems like a definite ________ conspiracy.....
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However i for one can recall That about a year ago a guy from north central maine had the same comparison dilemma.... (Me) ....and well I am sure from my profile you can see what my decision was,,,,
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Thanks again Randy, are you ready for the big storm, we're supposed to get clobbered
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Well In my neck of the woods the #1 brand of OWB is the Central Boiler..Hands down I see more Centrals than any other brand of OWB by far..Keep in mind I travel all of NH, southern ME, western VT and a good part of Mass.. I travel all kinds of roads from highways to back roads on a daily basis..Maybe that will tell you something..Just saying..Do your homework though..
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The biggest isn't always the best, how come you don't own a CB Matty
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The biggest isn't always the best, how come you don't own a CB Matty
Because I myself is impressed on how my boiler performs…
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OK so for you the biggest isn't the best, but because the majority uses them they should be the best for any newby, It's called marketing my friend, they hold about 70% of the marketshare in the northeast but for some reason we keep getting compared to one another, one has a simple very effective design with off the shelf controls and believable #s from the lab, the other had to be sued by the EPA to remove it's advertising of 97% efficiency from all of it's advertising and uses fancy controls that can only be purchased through corporate, to me the choice is very clear but that decision is completely up to the consumer, I myself refuse to be a sheep, led down that majority path.
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Hey How about a "HEATMASTER " Its nice to have a dealer near you of the Boiler you buy, but with this forum you can get help from almost all the dealers. Most likely more informative
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You know what slim..My statement isn't coming from a dealer.. point blank.. Its just that I see CB everywhere.. Seeing a certain brand makes the new guy question it...Heck a new E-CB was install about a mile from me in the late fall…And thats fine on what your said..Ive seen your setup at the Fryeburg Fair, saw it again this last fair..It is a impressive boiler.. Both boilers are only compared on this..Not a bad thing..Least what you sell is talked about..
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Mtoll and Matty you are both right with your statements, Matty are you going to Fryeburg this year, if so introduce yourself and hang out a while.
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Shewwwww...... Sometimes I just shake my head.
No response needed lo
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Oh come on Scott tell us how you really feel and please take some of the heat off poor old me, good time for a plug and I certainly don't mind.
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Oh come on Scott tell us how you really feel and please take some of the heat off poor old me, good time for a plug and I certainly don't mind.
Slim, u know we have very similar views on it haha
It's like a mouse trap around here haha
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Guys, far as I'm concerned it all comes down to dealer support. No point in buying something if your dealer is hard to get ahold of or half a day drive away for parts.
On the farm I use all New Holland hay equipment. Why? I have a very well stocked dealer 15 miles away, if they don't have the part I have two other dealers within an hours drive.
Comparing a Central Boiler to a Portage and Main is apples and oranges.
I looked heavily into a CB, have a dealer for them about 45 minutes away. A google search turned up a lot of disgruntled customers with both the dealer and CB, another google search turned up a lot of complaints with one states or anthers BBB against CB concerning gasifier stoves and warranty issues. This led me to lean heavily towards P&M, unfortunately the closest dealer for those is a good three hour drive away. Hence I'm most likely going to build my own.
Been told I can't build my own gasifier by a few locally, therefore I have to now.
Year ago was also told to buy one instead as I couldn't build a boiler from scratch. This is the thirteenth heating season for the first boiler I built. No re-welding since the first firing either.
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Mlappin, good for you on the build, if you are going to use our 250 for a reverse engineering tool, don't start yet, can't say any more just yet but soon.
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I will be putting in a owb this spring/summer, so have been on this forum every day for the past six mounths reading what everybody has to say, as far as cb and pm, I would have to agree with slim, MARKETING! Cb has fancy controls a variety of colors, but remember we are burning wood to heat water! Keep is simple! Not bashing CB at all, I know a few people who have them, and love them, but they did zero research, so nothing to compare it to! Also I believe the service is as important as the boiler it self, just as Roxanne on this site, do you guys think she would of had this many post if she was dealing with slim?? The research I have done Leeds me to believe every boiler has it's pro's and cons, Just my opinion!
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I ran into a unique situation here in my county. I know of about 12 boilers in my county. 8 of them are Hardy Heaters. Why? Because 15 years ago one of the farmers started up a "dealership" and sold them to all his buddies. That's all there was. He said they were great, so people bought them. Word of mouth was much more powerful then, than it is now with the internet and all. But, I could tell after researching and looking at the Hardy's, that there were MANY better choices. Sorry to you Hardy guys, if you love your stove, then I'm happy for you. But, I think they are one of the least efficient stoves on the market.
Anyway, back to my main point. Marketing had nothing to do with it here. It was simply lack of options and a opportunistic (in a good way) farmer!
P.S. I like how the guy who started this thread hasn't been back yet!!
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I would suspect the reason P&M and Central get compared to each other is the mild steel construction? That is the only thing I can think of. Personally I've never watched a P&M operate but I've heard good things. As far as Central goes I guess they are not the worst company on the market but I think their design is poor, they are definitely more of the 'big company' type and they are very over priced in my opinion.
Talking about market share vs a quality stove, we did a show in NC last week and 80% of the current furnace owners I spoke with had Taylors. There is an example of one of the worst furnaces on the market having a large market share. I assume it is because there are not many options in NC, furnaces like P&M haven't made it this far south. I swear I had one Taylor owner look into a Heat Master and say " I like how they found a way to keep hot coals from landing on your feet like mine does every time I open the door". :o And here I was all ready to sell him on a new one based on efficiency ect.
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Mlappin, good for you on the build, if you are going to use our 250 for a reverse engineering tool, don't start yet, can't say any more just yet but soon.
Does the include the 350 as well?
First off farm job I had I started in high school, doing maintenance for a place that pre stained cedar siding for the high end housing market. Machines to do this weren't available commercially so we built them as needed. I took an old earlier machine they had and modified it so all the rollers and brushes could be lifted out as one unit and a rebuilt unit could be dropped in place in about ten minutes or less. Bearings didn't last long as from being constantly exposed to the mineral spirits in the stain. The brushes used to get any dust or splinters of the boards didn't last very long either. Then no matter how well it was cleaned the brushes used to spread the stain then get the excess off would eventually get hard from stain buildup.
I get a sense of satisfaction when I build something myself, then have other people ask me where I bought it or what brand it is.
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I would be happy to give you some ideas, (offline), gotta stay on the cutting edge you know.
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I would suspect the reason P&M and Central get compared to each other is the mild steel construction? That is the only thing I can think of. Personally I've never watched a P&M operate but I've heard good things. As far as Central goes I guess they are not the worst company on the market but I think their design is poor, they are definitely more of the 'big company' type and they are very over priced in my opinion.
Talking about market share vs a quality stove, we did a show in NC last week and 80% of the current furnace owners I spoke with had Taylors. There is an example of one of the worst furnaces on the market having a large market share. I assume it is because there are not many options in NC, furnaces like P&M haven't made it this far south. I swear I had one Taylor owner look into a Heat Master and say " I like how they found a way to keep hot coals from landing on your feet like mine does every time I open the door". :o And here I was all ready to sell him on a new one based on efficiency ect.
I've found the best service I've gotten is from the small to medium family owned business. Once it turns corporate things like customer service tend to fall by the wayside in favor of profits and the bonuses that result from said profits.
Marketing plays a huge part as well. I still have Oliver tractors on the farm and use most of them daily during hay season. Oliver was a decade ahead of the competition back in the day, off the top of my head they had the first 6 speed transmission with two reverse gears, the first live hydraulics, the first live pto, etc. But they relied on mostly word of mouth and spent little on advertising, while companies that had somewhat inferior products spent more on advertising than R&D but those companies are still around.
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My first tractor was I think something like a 1956 Oliver OC3 crawler with a bucket, I got 2 in a load of scrap metal and used them both to make one, WHAT A GREAT TRACTOR, I used it for 6 years and then sold it for 3800 dollars, I've kicked myself in the ars several times for doing that. Just picked up a 1978 New Holland skid steer with a 4 cylinder Wisconsin engine, runs nice but there was nothing like the sound of that old continental engine with a straight pipe on it for sunday AM in the neighborhood.
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I need to find a crawler to add to the Oliver collection. Have quite a few of them, not all running atm, just have to make time to put em back together.
Oliver collection includes:
(1) 66
(1) 77
(1) 770
(2) 88
(1) 880
(1) 1600
(1) 1755
(1) 1855
(1) 2255
Have two White 2-110's that are basically just an updated Oliver 1855/1955.
All are diesel except the 66 and 77
Would like to find a diesel 550 someday or a 99.
All except the 1755 and the 2-110's were used heavily when we had the dairy, several were ones my grandfather bought.
The 1600 was the last one my grandfather bought before passing. After Grandfather passed I stripped it clear down, sandblasted all the tin and even sandblasted all the cast iron parts bare. Repainted and put all new tires and seat on. Grandma cried when she seen Grandpa's new tractor. Still use it daily while making hay and quite a lot during harvest for running augers, etc.
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NOT FOR SALE IS IT!!!!!!!!!!!
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I have a C/B, doing its 2nd year. With that said, not sure if I would buy another one. C/B 5036
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Sabercat, what is it you don't like about the CB 5036? I am still in the research/shopping phase so I'm curious.
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Wheres dr pinard when you need him ? :bash: CB 5036 here and i love it . I would buy another at the drop of a hat . I cant say anything about the gassers though ,never used one
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I miss he and boilerman!
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Coyote556
Not too many reasons, but I bought it, because of just about everyone around here has one. My brother did the factory tour, said what he noticed was great workmanship. I made my dicision to go with C/B for those reasons, plus I like the dealer, delt with him for supplies for my first OWB. Now my first OWB called a Pacific Western, 150 gal. loved it fan forced air, solenoid for air flapper never stuck open to cause a runaway, actually the only thing other then springing a pencil size leak, was it sheared the pin for the solenoid/draft. So with that said, I've had 2 drafts stick open, causing 210 degree steamover occuring naturally at 3am, thank god the dog had to go outside. I would assume its not the solenoid itself, though I'm getting a spare one, because I have read on here about some C/B's overheating. But other then that it seems like a good stove, you see alot of them out there so for the most part they do their job pretty good. Would I buy another one, well I wish I would have found this forum, sooner, there's alot of good stoves out there. Oh ya I keep the solenoid lubed up now. I know it a little thing, I just wonder why is this happeng with the C/B.
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Sabercat, thanks for the explanation, as far as the 5036, I always thought that they were a pretty good boiler and I still think so, honesty and credibility of corporate I'm not so sure about! Hint, when you lube up that flapper, try using transmission fluid, it works wonders on metal parts that can become coated with creosote and it does not freeze up or get hard in the severe cold and protects metal parts from rusting. It's just a trick I learned from an old Indian I once knew.
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Thanks for the info. I'm still torn between a CB classic and a PM BL series. I appreciate the response.
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Mr. Coyote556, do you want a force air or a natural draft? I put the forced draft at the highest priority when I was in the market for a stove, and I'm glad I did. I am a big fan (no pun intended) of the forced air design. Hotter fire, quicker recovery, more efficient burn. I don't buy the argument "it's just another thing to go wrong" that the natural draft guys push. I've heard of more problems with sticking solenoids than dead fans. Sabercat's post is one prime example. If those are your choices, I'd go with P&M. BOTH units were too pricey for me, but I peg P&M over CB all day. That evaluation is mostly from a design point, not a quality point. I think too many guys on here focus on quality between these two units, when the design is clearly a larger difference. Pick which DESIGN suits you better.
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Ya forced air draft is the way to go.. Faster recovery time
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Coyote 556 I do agree with CountryBoyJohn he has a good point you need forced air not draft and forced air under the fire. Just my opinion.. I certainly would not rule out Heatmaster. Heatmaster uses forced air under the fire as does PM, CB uses natural draft or forced air over the fire. Again take your time to choose one that fits your needs. Their all good units any one of those would be a good choice
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Simple answer, Portage & Main, and twice on Sunday. Components, quality, modular design, I've always thought of P&M as a more dependable boiler with higher QC control. I don't think the CB's of today are as good as the older ones.
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I have a oc4 What state do you live in?
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I would take a round firebox over a square firebox with ripples any day. If I was gonna buy either of them I would get the P&M.
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Thanks for all the help folks. Farm show coming up in march. Both companies will be there. I plan on going to give 'em both a good once over.
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Faster recovery time from what? When you let your fire go out? Mine is set 175- 185 . The house aint getting cold in the time it goes from 175 to 185. To me a forced air would burn more would.
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Because my state is an EPA II compliant state, I had no choice but to go with a gasser. I'm into my 3rd season with my E-classic 1400. I like my CB unit. I have no trouble with it. It heats my 1840's, 3000sqft home and DHW without difficulty. Granted, there were some growing pains along the way, but that was not fully understanding the unit and negligence on my part, nothing to do with CB. When I visited my dealer (less than 25 minutes from me) he was heating his business with one. It was January with minus temps and a heavy breeze from the north. He showed me the thing in operation. I was sold on the things. My dealer told me not be sold on one manu, that I should look at others and then decide. He likened the debate between CB and P&M to that of Chevy vs Ford. Both vehicles are quality vehicles but it's not fair to the Toyota line where they have quality vehicles too. My trouble I have is lack of time. My CB dealer is less than 25 minutes from me. I can simply jump on the highway and be there in less than a half hour. Time is a premium for me. I live alone. I work 10 hours days and some days I'm at work for more than 12 hours. I have to work a lot Saturdays too. So, when I need something (nothing needed yet) I can be back home inside an hour. If a P&M dealer was closer, I would have purchased the P&M. Am I going to sit here and say the CB is superior to the P&M, or visa versa? No! It would be very dishonest because I've never owned, operated or seen a P&M in operation. All I can tell you is my experiences have been very positive with the CB. Today I can own a Ford, tomorrow buy another it be a lemon. The same can said for any vehicle sold. Roger
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Faster recovery time from what? When you let your fire go out? Mine is set 175- 185 . The house aint getting cold in the time it goes from 175 to 185. To me a forced air would burn more would.
Two things forced air draft gives you. One is a much much quicker recovery time, something you may not need but many applications do. For example a radiant heat system that can use large amounts of heat at one time or a home with multiple heating systems that can have a large heat load at one time. Second is a cleaner burn. Its just a fact that forcing air into the bottom of a fire will make for a hotter cleaner burn versus having a natural draft above the fire.
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SMOKE is nothing but unburned fuel, unburned fuel is wasted fuel.
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Slim - :thumbup:
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Remember a blower fan option can be installed on a Central Boiler Classic model for around $125.00 if you really want a blower fan.
I never found need for one myself in the 7 years I ran a Classic.
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Good morning Boilerman, in your opinion what would adding the factory blower do for the efficiency of the boiler.
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In my opinion adding a blower to a Classic would slightly lower the efficiency but increase the btu output.
Help get a green load to burn hard quicker too.
I've always burned seasoned wood, so natural draft always did a great job for me. Personal preference I guess.
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Boilerman, There we can agree!
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In my opinion adding a blower to a Classic would slightly lower the efficiency but increase the btu output.
Help get a green load to burn hard quicker too.
I've always burned seasoned wood, so natural draft always did a great job for me. Personal preference I guess.
Just curious on why a blower would decrease the efficiency? Would it not burn the load at a higher temp and possibly reduce smoke output? I'm not saying it will eliminate it like a gasser. Or have you seen it just turn into a smoke dragon with blower?
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I believe it drops the efficiency a little because it pushes out some of the heat faster then it would be pulled out by natural draft without transferring the heat to the water.
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One of the biggest mistakes I have seen with the ( smoke dragons ) is to put extra pipe on the boiler without adding a barometric damper, somebody out there could start a small business building stainless steel barometric dampers for OWB's, the ones that you buy from the supply houses are just tin and don't last more than a couple of years.
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There is no right answer to this question. Every stove has its pros and cons. You will never know which one is better unless you buy both and try them! If one were so much better the other companies wouldn't be in business!