Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Scott7m on February 20, 2014, 09:34:37 PM
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Yea, I was just asked this by a forum member, ol good buddy haha
But that stirred my soul a little
Why didn't I?
That could get deep with someone as crazy about this as me
First of all, burning wood is something I feel a deep bond, an internal emotion that must come down from previous generations. It just makes my soul feel good
Second through eternity ------- well, geothermal is highly over rated imo. My parents have geothermal on a 1400 Sq ft home that's top quality insulated, still electric bills are over 300. If my dad's health stays in right direction he will have an own soon, damn cancer
Also, geothermal is often a 20,000 dollar investment on a 2500 Sq ft home. So to spend 20k on something that will take my heating bill from 500 to 550 down to 350-450 doesn't make a helluva lotta sense.
how about the fact you are still tied to the system? ? Yea you are a little more efficient but electric rates are going one way! UP!!
Also consider the expected life span of the compressor and such on a geo unit? Maybe 9-11 years, then you'll have to upgrade the whole darn thing because it's outdated by then. My dad's complete geo system duct work and all was 7500 15 years ago, a few years ago a compressor went out and that piece alone was more than his entire system, let's call it green gouging
hoe about the quality of the heat or the warmth factor?? Yes the house says it's 72, but it don't feel warm, it just feels like there is a weird air movement in the house. Not a very "homey" feel if you ask me
Yes, I could go on all night, cutting wood, storing it, burning it, it makes me happy. To know my utility bills went from 550 years ago down to 80-100 now, "not counting solar" is an added bonus, the comfort and peace of mind is huge!
Geothermal is a good ac, but there are new designs of ac out on the market now that are even more efficient
#financialindpendence #energyindependence #liberty #freedom #ihopeitupsetsaliberal #becauseican #epaisapowertool
now for all you not hip in social media? Those are hash tags with some basic points spelled out there lol. Had to help slimjim I'm sure haha
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Burning wood also makes Al Gore cry, so what could be better? ;)
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Burning wood also makes Al Gore cry, so what could be better? ;)
Amen, biggest hypocrite in these regards I've ever saw
If the liberals want a cleaner environment, they need to learn some true conservatism, I'm not talking dem and Republican here because they can both kiss my hind end, but just in general terms :thumbup:
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I wonder when Al Gore and everyone else in power will live the way they endeavor the rest of us live? They are so full of themselves that I don't listen to them anymore. The best analogy I can come up with is the doctor telling his/her patient not to smoke due to the dangers of smoking as they themselves are sucking on the cancer sticks. Every-time they open their mouths I want to tell them to shut the he** up. Roger
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AWESOME POST SCOTT, and thanks for the help with that one, (sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't) and most of the time I do.
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Good post Scott. I took environmental studies in collage. My classes where full of tree huggers. I would argue with them all the time.
I would tell them to go live in the woods in a one room house. Live off the land and don't make a foot print. These people can't live with out there phone and etc. No ones prefect, but burning wood is how are ancestors did it. If you would go back to living a simpler life, how would you stay warm? WOOD! It was put on this earth for a reason. For us to use and we are.
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If you would go back to living a simpler life, how would you stay warm? WOOD! It was put on this earth for a reason. For us to use and we are.
The same argument can be made with peta folks on why so many animals were put on earth, for mans use plain and simple. I get a chuckle when some of em suggest just turn our cattle loose and let em forage for themselves. Would have a lot of dead cows around this winter.
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PETA, People eating tasty animals
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PETA themselves got caught putting 2100 cats and dogs to death and then illegally dumping them. It was a top level decision because it was costing too much to house, feed and care for them. Makes you wonder what they do with all the money they haul in from the infomercials.
Back to the point. Geo never gets the proper coverage like Scott mentioned, because the huge majority are stories just like that. The ROI is two decades down the road at best. However our million dollar customers have electric bills more in the $10-$30 range on 5k - 20k sqft homes. So I really don't know enough about geo systems to know why some see the big saving and many others do not. But were talking $50,000 jobs plus that have the low bill. The cheap sales pitch backed by DTE advertising and DTE authorized installers are the bad systems. Anyone could sit in a class and become NATE or a certified installer. Some very bad installs. That are not seeing the savings. And they too were the only ones that could fill out the paperwork to get the state rebates.
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There are tons of geothermal units around my area, a whole lot of them have a outdoor wood furnace in the yard so they can try to recoup some of the savings they were promised and actually stay warm
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All this push for replacing old with new energy star appliances is a huge scam. Have never seen soo many problems with all E-star appliances. Same with the soap and pulling the phosphates out. My $1200 dishwasher don't work, did you hook it up right or break something? No I say, they I give her a box of soap from a non "greenie" state with phosphates. Oh, those dirty rotten politicians, a whole four of them lobbied to write the Phos ban. So instead of saving soap and water, we now use more to clean the same, cuz people put it thru another cycle. Damn shame taking advantage of the people. And taking away any freedom to fend for yourself
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Just like we cannot slaughter horse anymore. I tell people turn lose at your congressman's house and he or she can feed them. No slaughter no market. I have belgians. We are not allowed to dock their tales. I do it anyway, but peta doesn't like it. Soon they will mirco chip babies when there born. Goverment will now where your at all the time.
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Great post. Another thing along these lines that ticks me off..... Diesel trucks, they now have (DPF) Diesle particulate filter along with all kinds of other gizmos and nonsence. So now they have to build the engines a liter bigger just to make the same power they used to in order to overcome the loses that all the "green" upgrades that were made. So now the bigger engine burns 25% more fuel, but what it does burn comes out the exhuast a little cleaner... tell me how that makes sense? Burn more fuel, in a heavier truck, that uses more steel, which all lead to more pollution, buttttttt the exhaust is cleaner??????????
Also the trucks are alot more $$$$ do not have the same longevity and the fuel is 3x as much as it was 10 years ago.
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Yep, back 20 years ago they started this exhaust kick. Dodge took there ram trucks and put an air pump on them that was turned by the engine, the pump supplied fresh air to the exhaust which makes it appear cleaner
How's that for a load of crap?
The epa and California thought it was great but it never dawned on them that it takes more power to turn the pump and more fuel but only disguised the exhaust
We have to many people in position of power with cute little ideas but not enough sense to know what will work and what eont
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Geo is right up there with tankless water heaters. An average install will run you about $4000.00. A lot of money to spend to save $20 maybe $30 bucks a month. Over 10 years on the payback and not to mention the maintenance. Give me a tank type any day.
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rich people heat
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rich people heat
There cold, they just won't admit it :thumbup:
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Yep, back 20 years ago they started this exhaust kick. Dodge took there ram trucks and put an air pump on them that was turned by the engine, the pump supplied fresh air to the exhaust which makes it appear cleaner
How's that for a load of crap?
The epa and California thought it was great but it never dawned on them that it takes more power to turn the pump and more fuel but only disguised the exhaust
We have to many people in position of power with cute little ideas but not enough sense to know what will work and what eont
Speaking of cute, we have AM General in the next town over. Turns out some of their vents couldn't pass EPA standards at the hummer plant. Too many VOC's or something. So instead of fixing it a loop hole in the law let them get away with taking the vents that tested high and splitting then so you had the same amount coming out of 2 or more vents but thats perfectly legal. Dad worked on that job, he was a union tin knocker at the time. Spent six weeks adding more vents to dilute the off gas basically, kinda just like Dodge and those stupid air pumps.
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rich people heat
There cold, they just won't admit it :thumbup:
I wouldn't trade this heat for nothin! It always feels warmer when you're not writing that check to the gas company every month too! A guy I work with always brags about his geothermal. I just sit there quietly cause I know he paid at least 25k for his setup. I'll pass.
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The farm across from me has geo thermal to heat his old farm house and shop floor. I asked him this winter how it was when we had these really cold days and he said usually it is alright but when it can't keep up to the heat demand an electric coil on top of the furnace comes on as a boost.
Sounds very efficient to me.
Anything that needs government grants to sell it tells me it can't stand on it's own two feet.
Bob
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The farm across from me has geo thermal to heat his old farm house and shop floor. I asked him this winter how it was when we had these really cold days and he said usually it is alright but when it can't keep up to the heat demand an electric coil on top of the furnace comes on as a boost.
Sounds very efficient to me.
Anything that needs government grants to sell it tells me it can't stand on it's own two feet.
Bob
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The farm across from me has geo thermal to heat his old farm house and shop floor. I asked him this winter how it was when we had these really cold days and he said usually it is alright but when it can't keep up to the heat demand an electric coil on top of the furnace comes on as a boost.
Sounds very efficient to me.
Anything that needs government grants to sell it tells me it can't stand on it's own two feet.
Bob
Sorry I fat fingered that one ( I LOVE YOU BOB !!!!!!)
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If we didn't cut down and burn the wood we do its going to burn at some point anyway...forest fire
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If we didn't cut down and burn the wood we do its going to burn at some point anyway...forest fire
Never had a forest fire in our area that I know off, but your one hundred percent correct. Most forest fires are from mismanagement either from not allowing people to go in and cut dead or dying trees or from putting the little ones out enough times that sooner or later the dead material accumulates enough that once its going, their is no putting it out.
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PETA, People eating tasty animals
. There is a place for all of god's creatures, right next to the mashed potatoes and gravey. >:D :thumbup:
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rich people heat
Absolutely agree..I see geo heat in the wealthiest homes.., I also see is in some schools and country clubs
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I hope to employ both when I build my new home. There is nothing wrong with a proper geo setup. It will provide the same hot water to my in slab circuits as the wood furnace, granted the fan coils for low mass heating will not be as efficient, however the cooling in the summer is a fine trade off.
Neal
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As most on here know, I am pretty stupid. I cannot understand how 50 degree water can warm a home past 50 degrees. Without help. My owb is 190 and warms the house easily to 75 and water to 130+. If this is true, shouldn't the reciprical be true that my OWB can cool my house from 95 to 70 in summer?
Physics were not my strong point in school. And as I said I am pretty dumb. I also have a friend that is saving money with geo. She needed a 200 amp service installed to run a 90 amp pump and still has not paid for a new transformer on the pole that will allow for a 100 amp heating booster. I still believe electric is more $$$ and less efficient than propane, which she took out.
I still don't understand. Back to sentence #1.
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As most on here know, I am pretty stupid. I cannot understand how 50 degree water can warm a home past 50 degrees. Without help. My owb is 190 and warms the house easily to 75 and water to 130+. If this is true, shouldn't the reciprical be true that my OWB can cool my house from 95 to 70 in summer?
Physics were not my strong point in school. And as I said I am pretty dumb. I also have a friend that is saving money with geo. She needed a 200 amp service installed to run a 90 amp pump and still has not paid for a new transformer on the pole that will allow for a 100 amp heating booster. I still believe electric is more $$$ and less efficient than propane, which she took out.
I still don't understand. Back to sentence #1.
Don't feel bad. It took me months of study to figure out how it works. I'm building a new home this summer and seriously considered geothermal. In the end, it's too expensive and I'm on 45 acres of trees that I can use to heat with. So I'm getting an OWB with a propane furnace for backup.
It's actually a ground-source heat pump, because it's pumping heat molecules from the dirt into your compressor which compresses the heat molecules which causes their temperature to increase. It then blows out the air through your air ducts (I've been told air ducts are the most efficient with ground-source heat pumps). There are also air-source heat pumps but they falter when it gets below 30 degrees F. Anyway, the way it works is to think of it as electrical heat. You use electricity to run your compressor. The liquid flows through the ground. Liquid picks up heat from the dirt. Liquid is much more efficient for transferring heat than the air is. The compressor grabs the heat out of the liquid as it passes through, compresses it and raises its temperature, then blows it out. The now colder liquid goes back into the coils buried in the earth to collect more heat. The wetter the soil the coils are buried in, the better it works. If you use a pond or a well loop it's even better because liquid passes heat molecules faster and more efficiently than dirt does.
The problem is that the liquid is coming into the house at about 33 degrees F in the dead of winter, because as you pull heat out of the dirt it takes awhile for more heat to move into contact with the coils from the other dirt that is still at 40-50 degrees F. So as your outside air temp drops significantly, the ground-source heat pump needs help to create enough heat. That's where the integrated electric heater kicks in (or propane or some other type) as a supplement.
In the end, you're paying money to the electric company instead of the gas man. It's much more efficient than a propane furnace though so it is cheaper than propane. However, it's hard to gauge paypack on the investment until you have it installed and see how much you pay in electric to run it versus how much you paid in propane (and the electric to blow the hot air around the house via the propane furnace). The ground-source heat pumps run the most efficiently when they're running 24/7 and are variable stage rather than just 2 stages.
Where ground-source heat pumps shine is in cooling the house. It runs in reverse, pulling heat molecules out of the home and sending them out into the dirt through the coils that are buried. It basically turns your house into a giant refrigerator that way and is more efficient than an A/C unit.
Cost is just so expensive though, and without a guarantee of the"payback" I'd rather heat with wood. Especially since the IRS in November released an opinion that the 30% tax credit doesn't include your ducting system like it used to. That meant it would have been an additional $3K or so out of pocket if I remember my estimate correctly.
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I'm Def not saying geo don't work. It does work if properly done, but I've never ever seen the savings it presented be worth the overwhelming cost of it
The ac side of it is great, but once again we have to come back that there are now conventional style heat pumps who's acs out perform geo
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Chemist's Explanation: Deep in the earth, the temperature of ground itself is pretty much the same at 50°F to 60 °F throughout the four seasons. Geothermal takes advanatge of this situation.
Geothermal How Does It Do That:
For cooling purposes: A geothermals hot (i.e. warmed) refrigerant (cooling season) is cycled down into the ground into this 50°F to 60 °F zone in order to cool the refrigerant (i.e. lose excess heat to the earth) and then returned to lines within the air handling system of a house/building in order to remove heat from the air. The heated refrigerant returns to the earth through a coiled loop system and the process repeats itself.
For heating purposes: A very cold refrigerant fluid is cycled within a copper tubing coil deep in a well hole within the static 50°F to 60 °F zone of the earth. The refrigerant fluid absorbs heat from the earth in order to increase the refrigerant fluid to the 50°F to 60 °F temperature range. The earth-heated refrigerant fluid then cycles from the coil back to a compressor.
The refrigerant fluid compressor is what "makes the magic happen."
When the refrigerant fluid is compressed, the 55°F refrigerant fluid is pressurized and heats from 55°F to over 100°F (in physics, this is thermodynamics; pressure is directly proportional to temperature; in other words, as the refrigerant fluid pressure increases, so must the temperature of that refrigerant fluid). The compressed, 100+°F temperature refirgerant coolant is circulated through thin finned tubing within the cold air return of an air handling ductwork system. The colder air absorbs the heat from these thin finned tubes and heats the air passing through the fins. A blower then pushes the warmed air through the ductwork of the home to supply heat. 8)
That's all there is to it! :thumbup:
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Wish I could drill deep enough into the earth to get down to the 150 degree material :) then I'd be excited
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Wish I could drill deep enough into the earth to get down to the 150 degree material :) then I'd be excited
Like Iceland?
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Chemist's Explanation: Deep in the earth, the temperature of ground itself is pretty much the same at 50°F to 60 °F throughout the four seasons. Geothermal takes advanatge of this situation.
Geothermal How Does It Do That:
For cooling purposes: A geothermals hot (i.e. warmed) refrigerant (cooling season) is cycled down into the ground into this 50°F to 60 °F zone in order to cool the refrigerant (i.e. lose excess heat to the earth) and then returned to lines within the air handling system of a house/building in order to remove heat from the air. The heated refrigerant returns to the earth through a coiled loop system and the process repeats itself.
For heating purposes: A very cold refrigerant fluid is cycled within a copper tubing coil deep in a well hole within the static 50°F to 60 °F zone of the earth. The refrigerant fluid absorbs heat from the earth in order to increase the refrigerant fluid to the 50°F to 60 °F temperature range. The earth-heated refrigerant fluid then cycles from the coil back to a compressor.
The refrigerant fluid compressor is what "makes the magic happen."
When the refrigerant fluid is compressed, the 55°F refrigerant fluid is pressurized and heats from 55°F to over 100°F (in physics, this is thermodynamics; pressure is directly proportional to temperature; in other words, as the refrigerant fluid pressure increases, so must the temperature of that refrigerant fluid). The compressed, 100+°F temperature refirgerant coolant is circulated through thin finned tubing within the cold air return of an air handling ductwork system. The colder air absorbs the heat from these thin finned tubes and heats the air passing through the fins. A blower then pushes the warmed air through the ductwork of the home to supply heat. 8)
That's all there is to it! :thumbup:
Sounds like the earth takes the place of the condenser in a standard AC system.
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<snip>
For heating purposes: A very cold refrigerant fluid is cycled within a copper tubing coil deep in a well hole within the static 50°F to 60 °F zone of the earth. The refrigerant fluid absorbs heat from the earth in order to increase the refrigerant fluid to the 50°F to 60 °F temperature range. The earth-heated refrigerant fluid then cycles from the coil back to a compressor.
</snip>
This is accurate on how it works, but what they don't tell you is it's not coming into the house at 50 degrees F. The heat that's extracted from the dirt around the coils doesn't get replaced by other 50-degree-heat molecules to replenish it. When they've done actual studies of real systems in cold climates, it's coming into the house right around 33 degrees F.
Still easier to extract heat and compress it from 33 degree fluid than to use an air-source heat pump and try to extract heat from sub-zero air, so it's still more efficient. And it's more efficient that propane or oil.
If I didn't have the option of an OWB, I'd probably look at doing a ground-source heat pump to avoid propane. It would eventually pay for itself, especially with the latest propane prices. But I think the payback would be about 10 years or more, not the 3-5 years that some claim.
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Still easier to extract heat and compress it from 33 degree fluid than to use an air-source heat pump and try to extract heat from sub-zero air, so it's still more efficient. And it's more efficient that propane or oil.
Enter "auxillary electric heating coil." :(