Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: rt014 on March 08, 2014, 07:59:31 AM
-
Hi All - Hopefully you can bear with a few newbie questions, until I find the time to thoroughly scour the site and learn to ask the right questions. Here a few to start with, along with some background:
Background:
-Located in the Adirondacks of NY. Got hammered on propane this year. I have an open loop geothermal system with propane backup for the last 10 years that's been very finicky, troublesome and recently very expensive because it's been a really cold winter. I have over 50 acres and unlimited pine, birch (white and yellow), beech, hard maple, soft maple, hard hack....I'd be burning mostly seasoned hardwood. My house is approx 3000 sq ft and moderately insulated. I'm planning to add a garage/pole barn (co-located near the new furnace). There are no restrictions on type of furnace I can install.
Questions:
1-What are the handfull of best well regarded conventional brands?
2-I want a stove that only needs once a day or every other day loading (I'm not there a lot and a friend would come over and load it). Ideas on size or specific models?
3-I'd like a stove that can burn anything (including pine), but would mostly be burning hard wood...Ideas on specific models?
4-Any particular dealer / installers in my area that anyone can recommend?
5-I'm planning to leave the propane system in as backup and to fire the DHW system and kitchen stove. What are some of the other key questions I should be asking but haven't?
Thanks everyone
-
I would check check out the Heatmaster 10000E would be big enough to heat all the areas you listed, has shaker grates so you can burn coal also. Not real finicky about how season the wood you burn. Great factory support, SS will give you great heat transfer, great support on this sight. Good Luck !
-
Welcome you are sure to get responses, I don't live near enough to you to have answers to your local concerns but they are legit. One thing you may want to consider, no matter which outdoor system you decide upon you may want to have a HX between your outdoor and indoor systems to fire your DHW, that can also give you a way to reverse feed your outdoor loop with your propane boiler if you ever have a breakdown and need to temporarily keep it from freezing. Good luck with your choice.
-
With friends or neighbor's loading, I'd stick with standard boiler types, not a gasification boiler. Might as well go big for long burn times and additional building in the future.
Design is important, I believe. All stoves have fire in them, how well does your stove absorb the heat the fire makes before letting it out the stack? Look for designs that have some sort of thought put into them, not just a round firebox with a chimney coming out.
P&M BL 3444, Heatmaster 10000E, Nature's Comfort 325G, and others I'm sure will be suggested.
-
I have an American Royal 7400B Conventional OWB. Its manufactured in Plymouth, WI, you purchase them directly from the manufacturer. They do ship them by truck.
http://www.americanroyal.net/page/page/2021244.htm (http://www.americanroyal.net/page/page/2021244.htm)
One thing I would recommend is that if you only want to fill the stove once a day you need a large firebox. Mine holds lots or wood and will burn for over 24 hours. Now I do need to go out once in a while and move the ashes or wood to get that type of burn but it only takes me a couple minutes to adjust the ashes or wood. The temp outside and how warm you keep your home also impact the amount of wood you go through too. Also the type of wood you burn, if its green, how dry are also factors. Efficiency of your house can be the biggest factor in how often you feed the Dragon as I call it. If you home is inefficient I would purchase the stove with the largest fire box you can afford.
Wood if you can get it for free burn whatever you can get your hands on. I burn a variety of wood at this time. Right now I have lots of black locust which is very good burning wood and maybe the best wood to burn. I got most of this when I cleared my lot.
If you do get your OWB from a dealer and you plan to install it your self I would go online to purchase the installation parts, much cheaper. I did purchase some items from the manufacturer because the price was really good. If the dealer is going to install it be there when its installed so you can learn how it works to better understand your system.
Very import word of advice: Some boilers have the circulating pump installed in the back of the boiler, don't let them install it this way. Have it installed somewhere in the house and have isolation valves installed so you can easily swap out the pump if it goes out. You don't want to do this in the cold outside. Mines in my mechanical room in my basement. If they want to install it outside, the installers lazy and tell him NO! Also, you will want to keep a backup pump on hand in case one goes out, if it does you are in trouble.
I've said enough, but will say two more things, don't burn garbage in the boiler, there not designed for it. Two make you life easy call all your wood for the season, you don't want to cut wood in the winter if you don't have too. Its alright to have too much wood, but its bad to run out. I would also store the wood as close to the stove as possible. Makes your like easier.
-
Since you are in New York, you can only buy what is on this list. http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/73694.html (http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/73694.html)
-
Thanks RSI, I thought all of NY was EPA only!
-
man that sucks
-
You can thank those guys down in the city for that, they can dump their crap in the Hudson to the point you can walk on water but don't you dare cut a tree to heat your home.
-
Slimjim you are right about that. Those in the big city want to dictate to us living in rural America. Its funny that wood burning stoves are an issue for air quality but heating with fuel oil is OK. Fuel oil can dirtier than wood.
-
You can thank those guys down in the city for that, they can dump their crap in the Hudson to the point you can walk on water but don't you dare cut a tree to heat your home.
Wanna know what the Japanese are doing with their crap these days? Can you say "cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger.... Pepsi!"
LINK: Japanese Scientists Create Meat from Poop (Click Here) (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/06/17/japanese-scientists-create-meat-from-poop/)
:o :o :o :o :o :o
-
Since your in New York you have to consider a look at the Econoburn ASME approved outdoor or indoor boilers. Excellent performance, manufacturer will sell direct if there isn't a dealer nearby. Also you have Tarm (indoor models) that have self combustion monitoring with lambda controls for the perfect burn thru the whole cycle. Garn is another excellent choice with tons of happy customers and reviews. Needs its own shed or protection from direct weather. And Portage and Main.
If once a day feeding is a requirement any of these WILL do the job guaranteed. But no matter what it is, it will need to have a large volume of water to cover the home BTU needs for the day.This means storage or a boiler with a big enough water jacket like the Garn 1000 gal or more to provide the heat.
I don't know about the P&M as far as the list approved goes, but all the rest I listed are not considered OWB and are approved just like any other fossil fueled ASME residential or commercial boiler. The outdoor version Econoburn is an indoor ASME boiler with its own shell/cover. And cheaper than several on the list.
-
Dual fuel burner? Wood with oil backup?
-
You can thank those guys down in the city for that, they can dump their crap in the Hudson to the point you can walk on water but don't you dare cut a tree to heat your home.
Wanna know what the Japanese are doing with their crap these days? Can you say "cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger.... Pepsi!"
LINK: Japanese Scientists Create Meat from Poop (Click Here) (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/06/17/japanese-scientists-create-meat-from-poop/) MMMMMMM!!!! Can't wait to get some of that on the grill :P
:o :o :o :o :o :o
-
I would just like to correct on piece of misinformation that browncty wrote. As a long time dealer let me advise you that pump location is not as simple as he thinks. 95% of the time we mount pumps on the back of the furnace because that is the proper place to put them. There is more important things to consider than ease of replacing the pump. I can understand with a furnace like his there may be little access to the back of the furnace and you may have little choice. A good furnace will have plenty of room on the back to easily install a pump and replace one if you ever need to.
The pump should be installed at a spot where it will have no chance of air locking. If the basement is lower than the furnace and if the furnace is properly installed with a fill line where you can prefill the lines then the pump in the basement is an acceptable location. If the furnace is located level with or below the basement then you should place the pump on the furnace. Then again of course if you place the pump on the furnace you will not have a problem no matter which direction you are pumping.
This is a reason I always advise people to make sure they have a good dealer to either install or provide support and advise. I have seen so many systems installed where guys have this all or nothing attitude like "If they want to install it outside, the installers lazy". Really? Complete ignorance on what makes pumps fail 80% of the time.
-
:post:
Good advice and information Yoder! 8)
-
I hired a person who has installed boilers professionally and he recommended we install the pump inside the house as he has done on all his installs. There was room in the back of the stove I choose to install it in the house. I'm sorry about my lazy comment, as it was my opinion. Boy if I knew people where so sensitive on this site I would have choose my words more wisely. Also, I have several friends with stoves and their main circulation pump is located inside the home. I look at each system is unique. I don't worry about the pump going out I had one that was defective right out of the box when we installed the system. So now I tell people keep a backup.
-
yes..there are reasons for installing at the stove as cited, but if conditions are right, in the house is fine as well. i can not say with any certainy but my taco 11 has been in the house since i installed my stove. this pump is on its 14th season and i see so many guys have pumps fail in a year or two? is it just good luck or is my pump running at its sweetest spot? my pipes are 1 inch logstor and the stove is 250 feet from the house. every fall when i "hit the switch" i fully expect to have a dead pump but so far it has worked flawlessly and when it fails i will not be upset in the least
-
OH I don't think it's that we are really that sensitive but we all do want you to do it right and there are sooooo many variables that you are the only one who can make the decisions on, this is one of those areas that good dealer support makes a big difference on, a good dealer will guide you all the way and take the time to explain why it should be done in a particular way, in other words a good dealer has a passion for making the whole system work, there are lots of good dealers right here that donate their time to see it through without any compensation at all.
-
OK, so there are some dealers out there that know what they are doing. My experience with email, in person and on the phone was very unhelpful, like they enjoyed having a stock of boilers on hand as they really didn't want to sell them. Some were almost like they purchased some boilers and where there to just make some money, no service. I'm coming from an example of a poor experience with them. As I stated in a post a yesterday, some people need help purchasing things from a dealer. I'm just stating my experience and if people don't like it I guess I'll live with it.
-
So far here in THESE UNITED STATES, the first amendment has not been abolished, by all means we want to hear what you have to say about your experience however some of us intend to fight for our individuality and will not sit still to be lumped into a category of useless thieving dealers.
-
OH I don't think it's that we are really that sensitive but we all do want you to do it right and there are sooooo many variables that you are the only one who can make the decisions on, this is one of those areas that good dealer support makes a big difference on, a good dealer will guide you all the way and take the time to explain why it should be done in a particular way, in other words a good dealer has a passion for making the whole system work, there are lots of good dealers right here that donate their time to see it through without any compensation at all.
:post:
No hard feelings or anything like that. I just want to be sure prospective new owners don't get the idea that there is only one way to do it. It really irritates me when I'm out doing a job and the homeowner rattles off some misinformation they have heard somewhere. Never understood why some people seem to believe what they read online more often than the word of the experienced guy standing in front of them.
I had one job I'm glad I didn't get, another dealer told the home owner he could run 10 separate infloor heat zones plus a flat plate for hot water and a coil in the heat pump all with the small pump on the furnace. I refused to price the job like that because they wouldn't get enough water flow if many zones opened at one time and because I would have put mixing valves on all the radiant heat loops in his concrete floor. So my furnace was $2000 less but my installation was about that much higher. The guy just knew I was ripping him off so he went the other way. Hope it works for him but I'm fairly sure he will have problems.
As in any occupation there are different ways of doing something and reasons for doing each way. A good dealer should be able to explain why one way works for your application and why another would not. For example I did a commercial job this winter that required several types. One loop was pumped from the back of the furnace and another was pumped from the building.
-
Thanks for all the responses. Seems like maybe a Central E-Classic 2400 or 3200 might be the way to go since my options are already limited by the state. If anyone has experiences with either of these I'd like to hear it. Also which may be better for heating two buildings totaling about 5000 sq ft?
Do these systems usually contain an antifreeze to prevent damage if the system goes out/off during the winter? Or are they all made to run continuously? In other words, if my friend doesn't get there to load it and it goes out am I doomed?
-
Antifreeze or back up fuel source if freeze is a risk. Adding antifreeze also reduces the boiler total output cause antifreeze doesn't transfer heat as well as straight water. There are charts for calculating this, and also requires a larger circulator.
This isn't a concern with indoor models, or where the unit is installed in all conditioned space and might take days before freeze is a risk. Multi fuel options could include a pellet gun or wood chip loader.
If the system is installed properly, a circulator can be installed anywhere.