Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Lamont on April 01, 2014, 01:16:19 PM
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I've narrowed down my search to a Heatmor 200 CSS and a Portage & Main Ultimizer BL 2840. Both dealers seem good enough guys to deal with, but the Heatmor dealer is 20 miles away and the P&M dealer is about 270 miles away.
My major question between these two units is efficiency? Does the P&M Ultimizer series really burn that much more efficiently, or do I just go with my gut and choose the Heatmor based on feedback and proximity of the dealer? I know guys first hand that have Heatmors without problems and one guy that has had his 200 CSS for 20 years and is ordering another before EPA regulations take effect.
Will the P&M really consume a lot less wood for a 1550 sq ft new home, 24x24 attached garage, and 30x40 shop (all with radiant in-floor tubes in concrete)?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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If you are concerned about efficiency then neither.
They are traditional OWB's which have the added option of burning coal.
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This is one of those times that I'm going to set back and Lurk, not that I don't care but I choose to let others speak their minds without my input.
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Pick the one you think looks the best I know a lot of people that swear by their Heatmor, too many variables in wood consumption to get an exact answer unless someone out there traded a Heatmor for the new BL. I'm personally going to be buying Bl because I like what I saw in person and everyone around me has Heatmor, CB, or heatmaster and I like to be just a little different! P.S. I will have lots of questions for you Slim!
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Thanks Jwood, please let Brian know you are here
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I looked at Heatmore back when I was searching. Too many gimmicks for me. Expansion bladder, sand, anode rod. The P&M is much simpler. I prefer my Heatmaster to either, but if you're down to those two, I'm landing on the P&M.
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Slim when you say let Brian know who I am what exactly do you mean sorry if that's a dumb question I'm still new to the site besides browsing for hours on end but I'm here now to stay!
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I have had the centeral boiler 5036 and I currently have the heatmor 200ss and im looking for a different conventional boiler with better effiency. My heatmor seems to really go thru the wood. I will say that it has been pretty reliable.The bladder has been somewhat of a bother but nothing major. I just want something conventional that's more efficient. I think that from looking the for efficient the more money it is also so it all goes hand in hand in my opinion.
jason
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Jwood, simply that we are trying to track any business that comes from this site, we will give a small discount to customers who come from this site
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So just call Brian at P&M? I'm actually only 225 miles from Piney
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Yes, I'm not sure if there is a local dealer, if not he will sell it direct and you could pick it up.
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That's an easy one, portage and main far more efficient
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I like my P&M uses 1/3 the wood my first OWB did. A little house keeping but well worth it IMO. Would buy again no brainier and all questions answered and and advice given.
Whitepine2
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If you are concerned about efficiency then neither.
They are traditional OWB's which have the added option of burning coal.
No, not exactly
Not even close really.
The p and m bl is a brick lines series that has no water in the lower part of stove, it burns hotter and cleaner than the heat mor
It also features a heat exchanger in the top of the unit that really allows the stove to capture more heat, stack temps are way lower on those models with additional heat exchange than those that dont
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Thanks everybody. I appreciate the feedback. Slim - do I mention to my dealer in WI that this site helped make my decision or is that a factory direct deal?
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Certainly mention it to the dealer, perhaps we can get him to come on here as well, the deal is from corporate and will need to be mentioned to Brian when your dealer orders your stove
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If you are concerned about efficiency then neither.
They are traditional OWB's which have the added option of burning coal.
No, not exactly
Not even close really.
The p and m bl is a brick lines series that has no water in the lower part of stove, it burns hotter and cleaner than the heat mor
It also features a heat exchanger in the top of the unit that really allows the stove to capture more heat, stack temps are way lower on those models with additional heat exchange than those that dont
As I understand it he is looking at the Ultimizer, and that the more efficient P&M Boiler is the Optimizer.
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Yea but that don't mean "it's just another conventional boiler" there is a lot of things that make it and other models far more efficient than your traditional run of the mill central or hardy conventionals
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It is a real shame there are not credible methods of measuring these things available in the US, the Germans can do it.
So essentially they are both relatively inefficient, one slightly less so than the other, still begs the question if efficiency is a significant factor in your choice why you would be looking at either?
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Perhaps the prospect cant afford a gasser installed inside their home with a water storage tank and added chimney but still chooses to burn wood instead of oil
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Sounds like the other thread where the guy want low emissions but not a Gassifier.
Otherwise known as having your cake and eating it.
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It goes like this based off what I've read on other forums and the videos I've seen on YouTube, if you have a problem with smoke or you have a neighbor who may have a problem you better get a gassifier if you live in the country you have more options everyone just has to be smart about what they burn and don't smoke out the neighbor haha. I hate seeing those videos on YouTube of someone bashing owb's saying they are getting smoked out a mile away, that's not seasoned wood burning I'd bet!
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Ease and price of wood.
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About choosing a traditional OWB - cost is a major factor and my nearest neighbor is about 3/8 of a mile away. I just can't justify a gasser and really like the option of burning green wood mixed with seasoned if my supply gets low.
I've looked at some indoor units, but as a firefighter, I cannot put a wood fire in my house or another building. I know I'll catch hell about my propane furnace, gas stove, and water heater being fire in the house, but in northeast WI we ran steady this year putting out fires that started from wood fires - not that they were necessarily all equipment failure, but some were. Million ways to start a house fire, but if I can reduce just one way, that's better than none.
Also, I need something that will heat my detached shop with in-floor tubes about 60' from the house so I'll put the boiler in the backyard between the two buildings. I want something I can back up to and stack near the boiler and if it were ever to catch fire, I shut it down and use propane for the time being.
About efficiency, there are many more efficient options and most are from fossil fuels. But, I don't exactly have propane readily available on my land by the house and my hunting land a few miles away. If I were concerned about efficiency alone, I'd go with a tankless propane boiler, but then I would end up with an old school wood stove in my shop and the possibility of fire there (and short of my wife and little boy, those are probably some of my most prized possessions...).
I've made the decision on a traditional OWB, good or bad, agree or disagree, but was simply looking for info on efficiency since warranties are almost identical, price is within a couple hundred bucks, and both are reputable, long term companies. Burning two or three cord a year less might end up being the deciding factor if all other factors are equal.
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Sounds like you've weighed your options and that's the most important thing but you should maybe ask slim about burning green wood in the portage and main not sure how the heat exchanger will take to that but he would probably know, the heatmor might have an easier time due to the straight through design but again ask some experts cause I am no expert, not yet lol
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Thanks for the heads up. I really don't plan on burning green wood at all, but in a pinch, a guy has to heat the house right? I won't ever burn straight green wood, it would instead be added with like 3/4 seasoned and 1/4 green, but if we have another year like this and I don't have time to cut wood because I'm building the house, who know how much I'll have stocked up. I have about 20 cord waiting patiently for a house to heat. Just a little concerned after this winter...
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I hear ya I don't think you can go wrong with either brand there are sure a lot of happy heatmor owners around my area lots that are over 10-20years old so they can't be to bad :thumbup:
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I agree with you 100 lamont. Im looking for the same thing. Like this year we had a really bad winter and I had to burn green wood. I can now burn dead standing ash but the option to burn green is a big contributor. I have heard gasifiers burn half the wood but it also takes a lot more time to split the wood small to get proper season and burn. Im trying mybest to get educated and see what is the best so maybe I can have my cake and eat it to if it works out that way.
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I find the best fuel for the P+M 250 is a mix of different sized woods as well as a variety of species, sizing should be anything over 8 inches through should be split at least once, higher moisture wood should be burned only when there is a good steady load on the boiler
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A friend of mine with a CB2300 uses wood that is pretty green, but it is at full blast most of the time.
I did see a Garn a few years back, new install, a Christian Camp, they had not sourced there wood and were chopping and feeding. The only comment was that they were going through a lot more wood than they expected. Wonder why.
The other option of course is to build a small building where you want it and put whatever you want in there. Make it out of non flammable materials.
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I agree with The Boiler, either way, your choice, but BURN WOOD!
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I have a Heatmor and I love it. But if I was looking for a new unit I think I would go with the P and M Ultimizer. In fact my nephew is building a house and asked me what brand to go with and I found myself convincing him to go with P and M. ( maybe I should become a dealer)
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Perhaps you should, it does take some commitment though, Thank you for convincing him to look at our product line either way, did you get him to come onto this forum?
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Slimjim - Yes I told him about the form and he has joined.
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I would like to see more attention on the stoves thermal efficiency. How much heat is transferred to the water, what are the units stack temps, idle, start of cycle, at full burn....etc. I don't think enough attention is brought up of OWB's thermal design. We hear lots of burn eff, firebox shape and size, material type.
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:post: sprinter!
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I agree also. It would be really awesome to have a way for companies to measure how much heat a boiler will actually extract from the fire at full burn. I know that gasification stoves are the best at this but im sure some are better then others.
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You guys are right, I sure would like to see a real test that shows real results, the problem is everybody would have to participate in a program that can always be bought, who could we trust to independently test without suspecting somebody of being on the take, in my opinion the best test is the real market and feedback from owners in the field on open forums such as this, how could it possibly be more honest?
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You are right slim, but if someone smart enough wanted to try it could you put something like a pyrometer over the fire and then one in the stack and some how get some numbers and percentages of efficiency based on the difference? I'm sure it would be more complicated than that because that seems to easy, not to easy to do just way to easy to come up with, I pulled that out of my butt, just being honest haha
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There is EN 303-5
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Say what?????
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Jwood, I really like you and agree 100% with both of your last posts, lets figure out right here how to do it, The boiler, You will have to explain your last post a bit better for those of us that are a bit simple like myself, I'm sorry My buddy Danny is mumbling in the backround, he says that he's not mumbling, I think he's wrong!
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Haha has he been drinking, and ok let me think for a min.....
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Ok so you have two pyrometer 1 at the hottest point in the fire box and 1 in your stack probably as it exits the stove where there is no more usable heat. So you would divide the stack temp by the fire box temp and multiply it by 100 to get a percent. I don't know any of the numbers so I'm gonna make some up, let's say stack temp is 300 and fire box is 1200. 300/1200=.25 multiply that by 100 gives you 25% so 25% of the initial heat from the fire box is unused. So 75% heat transfer on those numbers. Does that sound legit?
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Slim I looked it up en 303-5 is a European boiler standard must be like our EPA standards but I'm not sure, hmmm European no wonder I had no clue what that meant.
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Or here could be an Optimizer 250.
260/2000=.13 x100=13 so 13% is going out the stack and 87% is being transfered.
Even if none of that makes sense, it sure sounds good to me O0
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Forget relying on some company, DIY!!!! One of the first things I look at on a call is stack temps. That's my first clue on wether it needs a cleaning or not. But there are so many different brands and they all have different temps. I think the consensus of members and their own findings is way more credible than what some OWB manufacturer "claims" in a lab .... notice none of them list this anyways.
Its a lot more than a couple probes and calculating efficiency. Weight of the wood and Wood MC will give you a net BTU input and then measuring how much BTU you are actually using in the home. You'd need to know GPM , radiant emitters and DT to get rough estimates. This is where the guys that have storage tanks have a known load that is easily calculated when all other loads are off. There are several good threads on calculating this stuff on hearth, and charts with stack temps over wood in lbs over wood MC equals thermal efficiency plus or minus 10% for example.
Either way is good stuff to know about your system. It's always a good idea to monitor stack temps if you can.
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Sure seems like a good start to me, it's simple and would seem to be hard to manipulate, would the customer care enough about it to pay for the pyrometers and recording devices that would have to be left in the field, I would like results from the field rather than a lab that is very controlled, take an average of many units rather than a single test,
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I agree sprinter you can probably make it as complicated as you want but every wood burns different but with those two probes you could periodically check the difference any time you want. Let's say 20% moisture oak gives you 1200 degrees in the fire box and 550 in the stack, then take 30% moisture your fire temp is going to go down but I would have to assume your stack temp will drop as well. The boiler is still extracting the same amount of heat before it exits the chimney, again I'm not saying this is correct in any way that's just how I see it I guess.
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You loose efficiency not just at the chimney, incomplete combustion, heat loss elsewhere.
Off the top of my head I would think the easiest way is to put in a load of wood of known energy (weight and moisture) and use it to heat a known volume of water. Measure the temperature gain.
The tricky bit is when you have different methods of operation ranging from full burn to smoldering.
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Ok well I was smart for a few minutes anyway O0