Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Hammersquash on April 19, 2014, 06:27:32 AM
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Hello All,
At the request of Jwood I am going to post my progress in this message thread and attach photos for all to critique. Normally when I take on a project that is not my area of expertise I like to do it quietly, under darkness at the witching hour, without mention to my family and friends so I can plow my way through mistakes and no one is the wiser. This time I am offering up my humble project and its photos for this community to critique. I am interested in doing the best install I can and will appreciate any information anyone has to offer.
Before anyone pipes up I know the Empyre 200pro may have been a mistake. There is very little info available on it and I was not privy to some of the manufacturing defects and negative service points they may have. My parents came home with a Beta VCR in the early eighties, we all know how things work. I chose the Empyre 200 for two reasons;
A: Cost. I purchased it from a dealer at under 60 percent of retail value
B: Two Zones and BTU output. I have a 2 story farmhouse with great room addition. Not including the basement it is 2000 square feet and well insulated. I had holes drilled in walls this winter and insulation injected between studs. I also had roof re-insulated and 2" of foam sprayed on my brick foundation in the basement. My shop is 2100sq feet with 13' ceilings and is well insulated. I know I am on the upper edge of the BTU output for the whole system but I do not plan on heating the shop throughout the week and a system that is running hot is cleaner and more efficient.
So here is my plan: (note to slim, no point in emailing you now on my intentions for plumbing schematic, here it is!)
*----------------* Pex grid in boiler slap and walkway
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Zone 2 ---- *----------------* 35' X 60' Shop. Water to air heat exchanger
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Boiler I
Zone 1 *----------------* Great room water to air heat exchanger/radiator/baseboard radiator
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* --------------- Hot Water Heater
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*---------------- Furnace plenum water to air (http://exhanger)
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*---------------- Kitchen Slate Floor radiate joist heat. (I can make breakfast with ice skates on it seems)
So as you can see its a medium project. I can supplement heating requirements in the shop with the wood furnace I installed two years ago. Should the radiant pad put too much load on the system I can shut it down. It's easier to put pex in concrete BEFORE you pour it.
The exchanger in the great room may seem odd but the guy who did the addition did not provide a link to the HVAC system and the addition is built on a slab completely concreted and insulated in.
I have struggled heating my home for a few years now. Originally I had a pellet stove in the great room and although it was pour/dial auger speed/walk away for a continuous BTU output I never fully trusted the thing after I came home one day to a house full of smoke and a few burn marks on our hardwood floors when the doors popped open after a backdraft. I thought it a better idea to install a propane stove in the corner with a handheld remote. Unfortunately it was better on paper. The propane stove fights an air mass with the oil furnace and it is impossible to balance out.
I also have a wood stove in the basement. It is certified and works great in reducing fuel consumption but getting wood into the basement when there isn't a cellar door is a pain in my ass. The bugs, soot, odd down draft and my wife constantly nagging me that the house is on fire at 2am every night is not worth the effort. I would rather stuff a few hundred dollar bills on the 1st of every month under her pillow to shut up.
So here are three pics for you to view. The first is basically a shot behind my shop where prying eyes can't see my boiler. I decided to put it here because of a few reasons. It is 165 feet from the edge of the house and with the technology of insulated pex I don't think there will be much heat loss. I do not have any neighbors. I am the only home on this side of the concession road (thus the lack of natural gas, high speed internet and cable TV) but my family doesn't want to be smoked out when the fire gets fat on those mild days.
The second photo (while sitting on my tractor) is the area cleaned up and excavation lines drawn out. The third photo is the 8" of topsoil removed. Luckily for me after 8" it is mostly clay.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13911506286/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13911506286/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13934664793/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13934664793/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13935051854/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13935051854/)
So I am off to pick up a few yards of gravel today and some other odds and sods for around the house. I plan to complete the forms this weekend and hopefully pour next weekend. Like I said, I am totally open to criticism be it positive or negative.
Hope everyone has a wonderful easter and you find all those eggs under your woodpiles next winter!
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Nice job laying out and planning
Pre planning prevents poor projects
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Sounds mostly like a good plan 1 thing I would do different is keep the garage and the slab on their own loop totally separate of the house and as far as the great room where is your furnace located?
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Oh and thanks for allowing us to follow you on your build and put our 2 cents in :thumbup:
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When I can get the marbles to stop rolling around in my head this morning I will comment, late night last night.
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Been there slim I shut it down early last night so I'm feeling pretty good today.
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Sounds mostly like a good plan 1 thing I would do different is keep the garage and the slab on their own loop totally separate of the house and as far as the great room where is your furnace located?
The slab and shop are on loop B exiting the boiler. I managed to finishing forming today and here are some pics.
First Pic is of my shop and home taken from the edge of my fields. This give a good perspective of the family room addition and the shop. The boiler path starts between the shop and the garden shed.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13938532534/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13938532534/)
Second pic is from back of shop post tamping and forming. Sorry for the straight edges.. I couldnt be bothered to curve them!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13940292595/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13940292595/)
Third pic is walkway
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13940287655/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13940287655/)
I am picking up mesh and pex this week. Any suggestions will be slowly digested.
W
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Sweet getup! I like the shop! :thumbup:
Neal
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Lighting. Nothing worse than stumbling through the dark looking for wood ripe for the pickings. I installed a 400W High pressure sodium light on a photocell and timer.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13919477096/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13919477096/)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13919478286/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/13919478286/)
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Sorry Hammer I read your original post to quick now I see that it said just the shop and slab and walkway on one loop so excellent job so far looks very nice!
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Are you using foam board ?
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Are you using foam board ?
Yes I was planning on insulating the pex from the gravel. I have not picked up the foam board yet. One of my clients is a home builder and I am calling him on Monday to see if his guys can drop off some trimmings. What thickness should I ask for or is it a universal standard?
I was going to put down the foam, mesh and pull tie pex to the mesh. I didn't thing there was any need to heat the bottom of the boiler so I will run my inlet/outlet straight out of the access hole for the boiler. Thoughts?
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Usually good 2" has an R10 value. That's what I would go with. :thumbup:
Neal
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Yes the 2" foam board even for the small walk way will make for killer response time. Don't forget the vertical edges , these are just as important. Another VERY important detail is to put the pex on chairs so it is within the top 2" of Crete. This will aloof for lower temps and fewer btu to heat the same space. Plus much much less lag time to change temp.
It's the little details that do make the difference.
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What are some good options for 1/2 and 3/4" chairs?
Neal
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The cement company will have every kind along with the mesh
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Usually good 2" has an R10 value. That's what I would go with. :thumbup:
Neal
So on your recommendation I picked up 2". That crap is expensive and two home depot's where fresh out of 2".
So Here we have shot from back. 3/4 pex, 2" Foam, mesh. 6" concrete for boiler base and 4" concrete for working pad and walkway. 4" of A gravel tamped under that...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/14038271632/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/14038271632/)
All nicely leveled for watershedding..
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/14038271482/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/14038271482/)
And finally walkway... My forms warped a bit as we have had alot of rain. I kept them tarped but the wind took them away in a storm. I can easily straighten these 8' lengths with some more stakes.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/14058380313/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/123605823@N05/14058380313/)
Concrete goes down next Saturday....
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Coming along nicely Hammer
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Hammer, one thing I think you'll find in the future is that you should have you're loops closer and more of them. Mine are roughly 6-8 inches apart in my sidewalk and even then when first turning on the system any wide spots in the pex will show up rather quickly with unmelted snow. Eventually it does all melt but since you're slab is exposed to the outdoor air it looses heat almost as fast as it can spread laterally through the concrete.
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Mlappin is correct on that aspect.
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True, although wind is a big factor in SIM, and it looks like that may be a fairly well wind sheltered area. That may help him.
He could also have a little higher slab idle temp pre-snow to keep the slab snow free.
Neal
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I wouldnt heat that slab unless it snows.
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I wouldnt heat that slab unless it snows.
Exactly, we've gone weeks here before with very cold temps, but zero snow. Any heat used to keep the slab at an "idle" is lost heat for sure.
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I wouldnt heat that slab unless it snows.
I agree, I would however idle it before snow is expected. :thumbup:
Neal
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I wouldnt heat that slab unless it snows.
I agree, I would however idle it before snow is expected. :thumbup:
Neal
Possibly. However I seen cold enough temps this winter that even with my closer spacings you could see where the pex was ran in the walk, the occasional wide spot would still have a little snow even after running half a day and it was started before the snow fell.
Most likely the slab loses heat to the atmosphere faster than it can spread laterally.
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I love the concept of the snow melting and if it were a little more mild here I would consider it myself but the constant 10-30 below temps just wouldnt pay we get really light fluffy snow generally and usually only a few to 6 inches at a time so its not terrible to shovel.
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I love the concept of the snow melting and if it were a little more mild here I would consider it myself but the constant 10-30 below temps just wouldnt pay we get really light fluffy snow generally and usually only a few to 6 inches at a time so its not terrible to shovel.
This winter with the spectre of never being able to get to the woods and possibly running out of wood I did a lot of shoveling as well, then just ran it to melt the last off so it didn't ice up.
We got some that's just barely snow, nice and wet n heavy.
You'll find you're concrete will look nice longer if it never sees any salt on it.