Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: daveP on May 11, 2014, 08:37:53 PM
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Hi All,
I'm looking to get a wood boiler for my home in VA. I don't have to get one soon, but within the next three years is my plan. With the entire EPA thing going on, I'm wondering if I don't want a gassification boiler should I buy it now and just store it in the garage until I install it. If I decide on a gassification boiler, then I don't see waiting a few years will hurt in my purchasing decision.
What I want out of a boiler, is to be able to load it with wood, fire it, forget it, and 12 hours later (on a design day) load it and fire it again. I plan to put in storage either way as my heat load for 12 hours at a design day is ~1.2 million BTUs. Why 12 hours, because I need to do the stoking and this is what my schedule needs, so it will cost me a bit more to get it installed, but I will be able to use it. If I cheap out, then it just won't get used and that would be a big waste of $$$.
From my reading of gassification boilers, it seems you have to load a bit, burn for 15-20 minutes to get a bed of coals, load the rest. However, it appears that the total load size of the gassification boilers is smaller than normal non-gas models. Is my perception wrong? I'm looking at Garn, P&M, Heat Masters.
I watched a video on a Garn 2000 and they had to reload the fire box twice to get 50 degrees rise out of the buffer tank, which is about what I would need. I really don't want to have to load, wait for coals, load again, wait for entire burn, load again. That doesn't fit my lazy load burn wait 12 hours plan.
It does seem that the non-gas units have large enough boxes to support this and they seem to be load, burn, return in 12 hours.
Or am I just completely mis-reading things? Completely possible. . .
thanks
dave
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Dave, am I understanding you right, 100,000 BTU's per hour? Most any gasser will handle that load, storage will not give you more BTU's but only extend the cycle, we are getting easy 12 hour burns without storage, we are making the call this morning to try to get into the show in Richmond VA. show this weekend, is this close enough to you to come to the show?
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I would love to come to the show, but at the moment I live in TX. I'm still renovating the house.
Yes 100k btu/hr is the heat load for the house on a design day. It is good to hear that this can be done without storage. Which model is that?
thanks
dave
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Optimizer 250 or the non gasser Ultimizer 28- 40
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I can't come to Texas to meet you because if I did, I would more than likely stay and my wife would not like that!
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Davep - I have a gasser, it's not a P&M but a Central Boiler E-Classic 1400. I'm heating approx. 3000sqft of a 1840's farmhouse in northern New England. Can you say air leaks? Every 12 hours I put in enough fire wood to go the 12 hours and I never had to fill the firebox. Even on the coldest days/nights we experienced this year, it handled it nicely and kept my house 70 degrees 24/7. I hope this helps. Roger
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That is good to hear. My home is a solid brick 1927 farm house about 3200 sqft. I just had a ton of spray insulation in the attic and encapsulated the crawlspace, it cut my projected heat load by 33%. Since I've never lived there and don't have any heating history for the home, this is all just numbers on a spreadsheet by professionals I'm getting to do the work.
dave
Davep - I have a gasser, it's not a P&M but a Central Boiler E-Classic 1400. I'm heating approx. 3000sqft of a 1840's farmhouse in northern New England. Can you say air leaks? Every 12 hours I put in enough fire wood to go the 12 hours and I never had to fill the firebox. Even on the coldest days/nights we experienced this year, it handled it nicely and kept my house 70 degrees 24/7. I hope this helps. Roger
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If your heat load really is 100kbtu/hr on DD, storage isn't an option unless you go pellet boiler. The key being 12 hour burns and only feeding it once requires a big firebox or batch burning and storage.
What did you use for heat calc? 100kbtu sounds high for 3200 unless there is more to it. With a DD of 16-22 degrees.
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I wish 100k was too high, I've already spent 12k in insulation upgrades to get it to that point. Basically 5 different HVAC installers and myself did the calculations. I used the slantfin program, pretty straightforward. They ranged from 94k to 105k, so I just kind of averaged them.
It is an old leaky house.
dave
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daveP,
I get a 12 hour burn time on my Shaver Pro series 165, my home is 1500 sq. ft. Now for your home I would recommend the Pro Series 250 Model. Its a lot bigger firebox and more water capacity, it will heat up to 5,500 sq. ft. Should last 12 hours though.
Greg Steinacher
618-401-0726
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Hi Dave just some guidance I have sold used boilers and repaired them for the past 6 years I took on the Portage and Main line because of the design and work men ship
And the ease of cleaning we have references up here in Maine that will tell you how they made out the 250 will be consistent on burn times 12 hour cycle and less wood consumption over a conventional boiler best on your decision
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Just out of curiosity, how much wood does it take to output 1.2 million usable btu's?
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Here is what I have in my spreadsheet, not sure if it is correct.
20million btu/cord
70% efficiency = 14million usable btu/cord
so ~10% of a cord or ~13 sqft. give or take some rounding errors.
This is one of the things I was looking at. I need a 13 sqft of useable chamber volume to get that much heat in a single load. I've only found a single indoor boiler, Vigas 80 (they do make bigger) with this big of a chamber. All the others Tarm, Froling, Velodux, even the Garn 2000 are too small. Hence my move to see about outdoor boilers.
If I've calculated the incorrectly please let me know.
dave
Just out of curiosity, how much wood does it take to output 1.2 million usable btu's?
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The Optimizer 250 is rated at 78252btu over a 8 hour burn time, not sure if that includes filling every 8 hours or if it can sustain longer burn times while putting out those kind of numbers. The Heat Master G200 is rated at 80368btu over the same time period so they are close to the same size. The G200 sells for $9,500. I'm sure Slim can post some prices on the P&M as well, that should give you some ideas on what you would be looking at. Also I have a G100 that I use as a demo that I'm glad to show how it works if you ever want to come watch how it runs. We are located in Floyd Va
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daveP,
The Shaver 165, 170 gal. water, heats 4,000 sq. ft., 165,000 btu, price is $5,377.00
250, 230 gal. water, heats 5,500 240,000 btu $6,277.00
290, 260 gal. water, heats 7,000 280,000 btu $6,627.00
340, 300 gal. water, heats 8,000 326,000 btu $7,277.00 all are plus shipping based on zip code.
If you would like a shipping quote, I will private message you if you want.
These are based are well insulated areas to be heated!
We have four models of Forced Air Outdoor Furnaces and four models of the New Chest Type Top Loaders. If you want prices on those I will provide them.
Hope this helps.
Greg Steinacher
618-401-0726
www.midwestoutdoorfurnace.com (http://www.midwestoutdoorfurnace.com)
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If you are looking for a shaver I've got a 2 year old trade in 165 that I can't seem to give away. But shaver doesn't make anything that passes the proposed epa standards. In fact some of the phase II furnaces will not pass either unless changes are made to the proposed regs.
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...curious Yoder.... when the post-EPA Phase II regulations go into effect, if Shaver (any OWB manufacturer really) has not sold (or the Shaver dealer(s)) the units, do they eat the costs of the units or are they allowed to sell those units if manufactured before a specific date or what?
I think it is awful that htese regulations are putting the stranglehold on wood-burning (especially in light of the increased cost of electricity, natural gas, propane, oil, and other sources of heat energy).
Thank you. -Slopster
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From what I have been told dealers would have 30 days to clear their lots and any remaining furnaces could not be sold. I don't think it will be an issue for dealers and manufactures who plan ahead.