Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => WoodMaster => Topic started by: kommandokenny on December 16, 2014, 01:42:57 PM
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We have a 4400 and this is our second winter with it.
Works great once you get the boil overs from air leaks figured out.
Extremely happy with it .
One problem ,,,
It is supposed to heat our hot water in the HWT. Via some pex and a heat exchanger.
We get luke warm water out of it, not hot enough to take a shower really.
We lived with it last year and turned on the electrics when we had company.
I now find out that we should be getting hot, not warm, water out of the system.
The installer says it’s plumbed right, as he’s done 200 of them.
We are waiting for him to come out and have a look[ 3 weeks]
We are on a well with 40 psi pressure at the tank.
The water gets good and hot with the electrics on.
But luke warm otherwise.[Trying to post some pics ]
Anybody else run into this?
Any ideas?
O ya the fan goes off at 170 and kicks on at 160 .
Is this too low???
Thanks
kenny
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How exactly is your water heated? What kind of heat exchanger are you using?
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I'm trying to figure out how to upload pictures into my post.
Anyway, there is a metal box on the side of my HWT with a red pex going in and a blue return going back to the 4400.
There are also 2 more blue lines coming out of the metal box [exchanger]
One goes to the top of the HWT the other to the bottom.
The 4400 manual shows these lines reversed in comparison to the way my guy hooked them up.
He says it won't mater which way they go?????
The exchanger is just screwed to the side of the HWT.
The exchanger is 5x 8 inches
Thanks for your help
KK
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Sounds like you have a plate exchanger one of these http://www.outdoorfurnacesupply.com/bp5x12-20-1.html?CAWELAID=520011210000000003&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=520011210000000001&cadevice=m&gclid=Cj0KEQiAzb-kBRDe49qh9s75m-wBEiQATOxgwWQkConiDCLL133zfXKW6n84VMMNq9VMQB6C3d5CqwUaAvLP8P8HAQ (http://www.outdoorfurnacesupply.com/bp5x12-20-1.html?CAWELAID=520011210000000003&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=520011210000000001&cadevice=m&gclid=Cj0KEQiAzb-kBRDe49qh9s75m-wBEiQATOxgwWQkConiDCLL133zfXKW6n84VMMNq9VMQB6C3d5CqwUaAvLP8P8HAQ)
Your boiler water will go in one end and come out of the other side. Your water going into your water heater should go into the plate exchanger on the side where your boiler water is coming out. So basically the water should flow in opposite directions of each other. I have a 20 plate and my water is too hot. It sounds like yours is smaller than that. You might need a bigger exchanger. I'm not familiar with how yours is hooked up. From my understanding, the cold water going into your water heater on the top should first go through the exchanger and then directly into the tank so it's heating the water before it even goes into your water heater. Does that make sense?
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Yes thanks .
What your saying is similar to what another member told me off line.
I was able to send him some pictures of my set up.
My setup sends well water to the HWT tank first .
IT goes in through the bottom and then out the bottom side and into the exchanger BESIDE stove input [redpex].
It then goes through the exchanger and goes into the top of the HWT. It's warm at this point but not hot.
Is it possible to post pictures some how on this site.
I think the way it is plumbed is similar to what you guys are suggesting.
I either need a bigger exchanger or just use it to off set my hot water electric bill, rather than eliminate it.
I will try email you the pics as I did with Bill
Thanks
KK
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This is the exchanger I have
http://www.sunsourceproducts.com/catalog/productdetail.asp?cat=SX&part=0490 (http://www.sunsourceproducts.com/catalog/productdetail.asp?cat=SX&part=0490)
Any input appreciated :)
KK
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Trying to load some pictures here
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Post a picture to a third party website and post the link on here. There are instructions on how to do this in the "Testing" room at the bottom of the main page.
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HERE GOES
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/HOT%20WATER%20TANK/PC170013.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/HOT%20WATER%20TANK/PC170012.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC160002.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC160001.jpg)
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Got the pics on finally
The 4400 manual shoes this setup,,, with the 2 blue pex for the HWT , REVERSED??
My guy says this works better?? :bash: :bash:
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Got the pics on finally
The 4400 manual shoes this setup,,, with the 2 blue pex for the HWT , REVERSED??
My guy says this works better?? :bash: :bash:
The experts will chime in soon because I'm no expert whatsoever but, what would it hurt if you reversed it like the manual says knowing this setup is not working that well? Just my $0.02 worth. Roger
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Thanks Roger :thumbup:
I ran that by the installer and he got a little upset.
He said he had done hundreds of them his way, with complete satisfaction.
I may change it around, but would like more input.
Water from the OWB is hot in and out,,, but not to the HWT
It may not be capable of heating the cold water from the well
I think the problem with this setup is the exchanger is too small???
Thanks again
kk
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Thanks for sticking with it on the pictures, Your issue is, first you should really have a small recirc pump on the domestic side of the exchanger, second, tell the installer he's smoking something illegal, all heat exchangers should be set up with counter current flow and third you should have an air vent at the top of your domestic line going back into the tank. Your exchanger size is fine!
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Is it just me, or does this look like it is a plate exchange plumbed in like a sidearm??
This is not how I would plumb a plate in. You don't need a circ pump if you change your plumbing around a bit.
Am I wrong Slim?
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I don't see it working with a plate exchanger without a recirc pump on the domestic, I don't think there would be enough thermal convection to ever heat the tank
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Right. I agree for this configuration. But, this configuration is not how to best use a plate. All you need to do with the plate is plumb your cold supply into the plate then out of the plate into the water heater. Done. Simple. Unlimited hot water.
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Exactly, but that's not how it's plumbed, if the installer has done a hundred of them this way, then the installer has 100 dissatisfied customers, Kommandokenny, what Countryboy is saying is that the incoming water line on the domestic side needs to go to the heat exchanger first then out of the exchanger and into the tank, don't forget the tee on the cold before the plate to your mixing valve.
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Thanks guys!
From your input and my "truck-driving physics" , I believe the pump is the answer.
It is not possible to heat the water in the tank if it is not moving into the tank constantly??
Having said that,there may be a better way to plumb it, without the use of a pump.
The way it is set up now is pretty much the same as if the well water went into the exchanger directly.
It just takes a detour into the bottom of the tank first?
Is anyone on the forum using a pump.??
KK
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I have 20 plate 5"x12 exchanger no cir pump no mixing water out of faucet unlimited at138 deg. Works great for my set up would use thermo mixing value if u have small children
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Also, after talking with Bill, I figured out why the water in the line to the top of the HWT is just warm. :'(
There maybe an air lock or bubble preventing the siphon action from working?????????
Would the relief valve on the top of the HWT alleviate this??
Gonna give it a go :o
KK
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I have 20 plate 5"x12 exchanger no cir pump no mixing water out of faucet unlimited at138 deg. Works great for my set up would use thermo mixing value if u have small children
I don't think the plates, or the lack of,, is my issue.
Is your line going from the exchanger to the HWT hot, or just warm??
Does it go in the bottom or top of the tank??
Thanks
KK
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I think your exchanger is way too small; I don't like these flat plates. They clog up too easily too. I have a side arm on my 85ga water tank, and it's making our DHW 170F+. We had to add a mixing valve to reduce the domestic water temp to 120-130ish because it was boiling hot. I think if you change the water to water exchanger that is larger, things will improve immediately.
I'll send the pic of mine; but it's from nature comfort.
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here is what you want.
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A couple things about these last few posts. Plate exchangers are NOT designed to thermosiphon. Increasing number of plates will not help. Your water heater is set up in a manner for using a side arm, not a plate. If you want to keep your plumbing as it is now, you will need to add a pump. If you want to use the plate without a pump, you need to adjust your plumbing like me and Slim stated above.
Clogging plates CAN be a problem with extremely hard water. But, they can be cleaned easily as well. A plate exchanger plumbed properly will provide unlimited hot water. A side arm will thermosiphon without a pump, but it has a longer recovery period. High use situations normally call for a plate.
If I were in your shoes, I would keep the plate and redo the plumbing according to the posts above. This way you won't need another pump to maintain and worry about.
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Ok will keep the re-plumbing and, or, a small pump on the burner for next summer. :thumbup:
I still don't get why my guy went through all the extra plumbing,,, getting rid of my anode etc,,, to do it wrong??
[We dropped a new anode in the tank loose]
Had nothing but positive feedback about him.
I helped a bit with the install and he had all the answers.
Can't wait to show him the posts after he said he plumbed it right when I questioned him.
This is a great forum with lots of great ideas and help. :thumbup:
KK
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Exactly, but that's not how it's plumbed, if the installer has done a hundred of them this way, then the installer has 100 dissatisfied customers, Kommandokenny, what Countryboy is saying is that the incoming water line on the domestic side needs to go to the heat exchanger first then out of the exchanger and into the tank, don't forget the tee on the cold before the plate to your mixing valve.
The way it is plumbed now, the well water goes to the mixing valve AND the bottom of the tank,,, and is still cold well water entering the exchanger ,via the bottom of the HWT
I'm no expert of course, but is this not the same thing.
Don't get cheesed, I don't quite get it, is all :bash:
KK
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Exactly, but that's not how it's plumbed, if the installer has done a hundred of them this way, then the installer has 100 dissatisfied customers, Kommandokenny, what Countryboy is saying is that the incoming water line on the domestic side needs to go to the heat exchanger first then out of the exchanger and into the tank, don't forget the tee on the cold before the plate to your mixing valve.
Re-plumbed,,, and it's worse.
Water is about 10% cooler plumbed this way .
It comes into the exchanger and turns the plate exchanger cold .
The outgoing pipe below is not hot at all,, barely warm .
Guess that's why the installer plumbed it in through the bottom,, to pick up a bit of residual heat from the tank, before going to the exchanger??
No way the exchanger can keep up.
Violent temp change in the plate exchanger can't be good either?
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC210008.jpg)(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC210004.jpg)
Thanks I give :bash:
KK
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If I were in your shoes, I would keep the plate and redo the plumbing according to the posts above. This way you won't need another pump to maintain and worry about.
Nope worse
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Ok. Probably should've asked this first, but what is your pump setup? We need the model, size, and head loss. You may not have enough flow through your stove side of the exchanger.
Hang in there. We can get this figured out.
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The water exiting to the bottom of the hx to the bottom of the tank should be as hot or close to as hot as the boiler line is when the boiler line enters the hx. If the water entering the hx on the boiler side is entering hot and leaving hot and the water entering the hx on the domestic side is entering cold and leaving only luke warm when you are running a faucet in the house then this means that your hx is not exchanging the heat for some reason. Do you have hard water? Hx could be plugged up on domestic side but I would expect to see difference in water pressure if you only run cold water or you only run hot water in the house.
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One other thing I thought of and Mr. Hondaracer hit on it. After you changed your setup how long did you let the water run. If your tank isn't up to temp, open the hot side of a tub and let it run. After a minute, the downstream side of your domestic side should be hot just like Honda says. It will take upwards of 5-10 minutes for your tank to come up to temp as well as the tub water. After it is up to temp, you should have hot water readily available.
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Read what hondaracer2004 and CountryBoyJohn have to offer. I had to do the same thing. I was very disappointed when I installed mine but I talked to one of the guys I work with and he told me to run the hot water in a sink or tub or shower, etc... for about a minute. You may have to do this a few times. Every 5 minutes I turned on a faucet and to see how it was doing. After a few cycles of turning on the water for about a minute and then waiting a few minutes I had and continue to have plenty of hot water. Don't give up. You'll get it. Roger
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to run the hot water in a sink or tub or shower, etc... for about a minute. You may have to do this a few times. Every 5 minutes I turned on a faucet and to see how it was doing. After a few cycles of turning on the water for about a minute and then waiting a few minutes I had and continue to have plenty of hot water. Don't give up. You'll get it. Roger
Ya I got that part of it and I even put the electrics on it to boost the water temp up.
I then played around with the facets, opening and closing .
As soon as you turn on a facet the xplate goes cold.
It never did that with the old plumb through the bottom of the tank.
Anyway took a shower just now after priming DW into the exchanger all day.
It was ok ,,,,,had the mixing valve shut and the shower faucet on full hot.
LO PRESSURE, but it was warm enough.
[Not acceptable]
The way I see it, the small 10 plate exchanger just can't keep up.
For this to work, for now, I would have to leave the kitchen facet on a trickle 24/7 to slowly draw water continuously into the plate exchanger.
I don't know about pump speed GPM etc.
Your saying the faster the stove water goes, the better??
I'll post the pump model etc.
Sure heats the house fantastic!!!!
Thanks
kk
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Absolutely agree with Slim. You have two options:
1.) Install a small circulation pump on the hot water tank so it pumps the water through the HX
2.) Change the HX to a true sidearm style, which is built to better facilitate convective heat transfer, i.e. longer/taller design so that it starts to pulls cold water from the bottom and dumps hot water out the top (much like a tall chimney drafts)
Cando
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No water pressure? Your hx is plugged. That is why no exchange is happening.
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Absolutely! If you are running full hot and don't have pressure, your exchange is clogged!
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I would also agree that the exchanger is plugging up, while you are at it I would change it out with a 20-30 plate and install purge ports and valves on all ports so it can be cleaned without removal next time!
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No water pressure? Your hx is plugged. That is why no exchange is happening.
Oh sorry, I had pressure to the shower last night, but with no cold water mixed in, it was poor.[1/2 pressure]
The way it was plumbed before, water came in slowly from the bottom [semi warm] to the exchanger.
The exchanger stayed hot when opening a facet.
Now,, with it coming directly through the exchanger from the well at 40psi the exchanger goes cold when you turn on a facet.
I'm thinking it was originally plumbed through the bottom of the tank to the exchanger to compensate for the poor flow????
The exchanger is not plugged, I did not explain things right.
Like you say, water will take the least restrictive path back to the Owb.
That would be the larger 1 inch return to the OWB and not pressurize the HWT circuit?????
Going to post pictures
Thanks keep the ideas coming We're getting close ,,maybe,,??
Cheers
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Ok. Probably should've asked this first, but what is your pump setup? We need the model, size, and head loss. You may not have enough flow through your stove side of the exchanger.
Hang in there. We can get this figured out.
Country Boy ,This got me thinking about the flow to the exchanger.
Cold water coming from the well directly into the exchanger at 40 psi.
Hot water from the owb via the "T" JOINT may not be under enough pressure to heat the cold water.
The 3/4 " HWT circuit is an offshute from the main 1 INCH line.
Is the setup sposed to be in series, ie ,1 inch pex going in to the HWT then out,, and directly to the fan forced furnace and back to the OWB.
A complete circle???
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC220018.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC220016.jpg)
kk
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Absolutely agree with Slim. You have two options:
1.) Install a small circulation pump on the hot water tank so it pumps the water through the HX
2.) Change the HX to a true sidearm style, which is built to better facilitate convective heat transfer, i.e. longer/taller design so that it starts to pulls cold water from the bottom and dumps hot water out the top (much like a tall chimney drafts)
Cando
Agee with that.
I think I got cheaped with the installation.
No drain setup on the lines either.
It kinda 1/2 works.
Should of been a complete series circuit with a proper side arm x
:post:
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One other thing my temp setting on the OWB is 160 /170 f
Would cranking it up 10 degrees do much??
I know I mentioned this earlier in one of my posts
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Yeap, that is another big problem. Flat plates have a lot of resistance. Water isn't going to flow through it well because of the fact that it needs to make a 90 degree turn then go through a high resistance device. But if you have low flow on the owb side of the hx you should have hot water entering the hx from the owb and cold leaving because of how much heat was exchanged fr the low flow. Your hot water pressure and your cold water pressure in your house should be equal. If they are at all noticeably different then you have a plugged up hx on the domestic side. It is likely that it is plugged up on the owb side too because it also is not exchanging any heat over to the domestic. I would remove it from the system and flush it per flat plate exchanger flushing procedures.
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It's not plugged, it's new.
The heat is exchanged, but poor recovery time .
ie can't keep up. Be it size, or flow from OWB
I have seen how this is supposed to be plumbed with a side arm exchanger in a circle.
I think it has to be started over and a side arm xcanger incorporated in a loop?????????
KK
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Yeap, that is another big problem. Flat plates have a lot of resistance. Water isn't going to flow through it well because of the fact that it needs to make a 90 degree turn then go through a high resistance device. But if you have low flow on the owb side of the hx you should have hot water entering the hx from the owb and cold leaving because of how much heat was exchanged fr the low flow. Your hot water pressure and your cold water pressure in your house should be equal. If they are at all noticeably different then you have a plugged up hx on the domestic side. It is likely that it is plugged up on the owb side too because it also is not exchanging any heat over to the domestic. I would remove it from the system and flush it per flat plate exchanger flushing procedures.
It's still not plugged.
The OWB Hot into exchanger is hotter than return = heat loss,/ transfer
The Domestic in,,, turns the exchanger from hot to cold = heat transfer.
I could be missing something of course
kk
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Alright let me explain. There are a multiple methods and piping set ups to heat your domestic hot water. The two methods are a flat plate heat exchanger or a side arm heat exchanger. Lets talk about the Flat plate first.
Flat plate. 4 Ports on the flat plate. 1 in from boiler and 1 out to boiler. 1 in from domestic and 1 out to domestic.
Flat plate exchange. Water enters flat plate from boiler, travels back and forth between plates with domestic water on the other side of the plate. Number of plates = number of passes through the exchanger. Water on the domestic side passes through the plates in the opposite direction exchanging the heat into the domestic water. Obviously the more plates in the exchanger the longer the boiler water is able to exchange heat thus more btus can be exchanged to the domestic side. If you were to turn on the water at a faucet with a 10 plate you should be able to bring 50 degree well water up to atleast 100 degrees by the time it gets through to the other side of the exchanger. Any more water flowing then this would likely be over the capacity of the exchanger leading to cooler water leaving the exchanger on the domestic side.
Flat plate plumbing options. You can either pre heat your water before it enters the tank(what you have plumbed now) or you can heat it after it leaves the tank like an On Demand water heater.
Pre Heating water- You will heat domestic water as it enters your tank when a faucet or shower etc calls for water in the home. The water that has been sitting in the tank will hopefully still be above your 100 degrees that you want. This all depends on how much you call for water in the house. Many people utilize this plumbing method and it works just fine.
Post heating your water- You put the exchanger after your water leaves the water heater. This is a 'on demand' style plumbing set up. You would likely need a 30 plate exchanger to ensure that whenever a call for heat occurs that you will be able to meet the btu demands.
Side arm- Water is piped in on the domestic side from the bottom drain, through the side arm and then back into the tank through the over pressurization bung. Water on the boiler side travels through the side arm creating a 'thermosiphon' where the cold water at the bottom of the tank naturally wants to rise towards the warm water in the exchanger creating a natural flow of water exchanging cooler water at the bottom of the tank. S
Sidearms tank a while to recover water temp inside the water heater since there is no flow from the domestic causing the water exchange.
So in conclusion you have your domestic side piped correctly for a flat plate pre heater. This set up works perfect once you fill your water heater full of hot water and replenish if with hot water everytime your house calls for water. If you have any significant drop in water pressure on your hot water domestic side this means that you likely have a plugged up exchanger. I have no idea how hard your water is at your home, it could plug up the small passages in your flat plate in months if the water is hard enough. If you flow a faucet in your home and go and feel the the domestic water leaving the hx headed to the bottom of the water tank and it is only luke warm that means that you are not exchanging the heat. This could be because your are plugged up or you are flowing water to fast through the hx(heat exchanger does not have enough plates) on the domestic side.
Lastly I don't think you should have the T plumbed in the way you do for the hx from the OWB. You should be feeding the flat plate inline with your indoor furnace water to air hx. You also shouldn't reduce the size down to 3/4, this just creates even more friction loss in the system.
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Honda,,Everything you say makes perfect sense.
I agree/understand it all, specially the part about the exchanger.. not being able to keep up and recover
There were posts earlier explaining that plate number and size would not matter.
At the time I agreed with this as it came from knowledgeable members.
I also looked at my Woodmaster bill,, and see I WAS CHARGED FOR A 20 PLATE and received a 10 plate.
I knew nothing,, and trusted the installer to set it up for me.
So I believe my options are,, to wait till spring and redo it properly with a side arm in series , or switch it back to feeding the exchanger from the HWT..Incorporate a small inline pump below exchanger to circulate the water through the exchanger slowly.
Or leave it and use it as an assister? :bash:
KK
Or keep it as a hot water assister.
Any better options$$ appreciated
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Mr. Honda may have hit on another key problem. After your tee at the point it enters your basement, do you have s pump on each run? If not, I'm 100% positive this is your problem. I know, because I did the same thing. You can't plumb our stove pumps like normal plumbing. You need to plumb everything in series. If you don't have a pump on each leg, only one leg is getting the flow. In guessing that your furnace is on one leg and works fine and your water heater is on the other!!
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10-4 Country.
That's why I posted pictures of my" T" set up yesterday.
I looked at the schematics from the various OWB companies and they are all in a circuit .
This is what I was eluding to earlier in one of my post's.
The hot water on the stove side of the exchanger cannot go through the exchanger fast enough to heat the domestic .
Almost like what everyone id saying"you got a plugged exchanger'"
It goes through and warms it but it almost works in reverse [cold wins]
So what to do '
For now,,Small pump and push it up through the exchanger and into the top of the HWT...... if it cycles around, it will get hot, eventually???
Maybe 20 plate exchanger if that does not work??
KK
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Depending on how strong your pump is, you could redo your tee and run your system in series. That's what i did to fix my problem when i did the same thing.
But, I would recommend a 20 plate. It's not 100% necessary, but recommended.
If you have a second pump, what you recommend, and I think Slim proposed in a previous thread too, should work.
I apologize for the "clogged exchange" diagnosis. But, it does sound like you have a pressure issue in your domestic side. It could be because you are using a 10 plate and not a 20.
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Here are my suggestions on fixing this.
1. You need to fix how this thing is plumbed. Get rid of the Ts on the incoming line. After your Water to air HX on your furnace run the returning line over to your hot water heater to run through your hot water heat exchanger and then send the water back to your boiler. This step is necessary to get your flat plate or a side arm to work correctly
2. Either replace your 10 plate with a 20 or a 30 plate HX or a side arm. Either will work. If you have water that is not hard I would use a flat plate to pre heat your water. If you have hard water I would use a side arm. No need to run a pump on a plate heat exchanger either. It will heat the water up to temp just fine all the way from well water temp.
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this system needs to be looked at from start to finish before just hooking in series. it is obvious there is a problem but just to say hook in series may still not fix it. what (I think) needs to be done is to look at the design from the start. pipe size, length, pump sizeand desired gpm etc.
remember than when hooked in series all head pressure must be added together
it is stated that the house heats fine but the water does not. now if you add the plate exchanger in line and lets say it adds as much as 10 feet of head to the system it may in fact slow the gpm delivery to the furnace enough to cause problems there as well.( the house may not heat well or it may still heat well enough but the delta t may be too low) that is why I say this whole system needs to be looked at from the beginning
with the wrong pump in this system and the added head from the plate exchanger could drastically slow the flow
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I agree 100% with confirming that the rest of the system is up to snuff. Please let us know the length of line from boiler to house, size of piping, pump brand and model, type and number of fittings in the system, size of water to air hx an that should be about it, any significant elevation change between boiler and the house and that should be it. This should allow us to be able to determine if the pump is big enough to deal with the head pressure.
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Depending on how strong your pump is, you could redo your tee and run your system in series. That's what i did to fix my problem when i did the same thing.
But, I would recommend a 20 plate. It's not 100% necessary, but recommended.
If you have a second pump, what you recommend, and I think Slim proposed in a previous thread too, should work.
I apologize for the "clogged exchange" diagnosis. But, it does sound like you have a pressure issue in your domestic side. It could be because you are using a 10 plate and not a 20.
Would a 20 plate not be more restrictive??
I would 86 my plate x and put in a side arm in series.
kk
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this system needs to be looked at from start to finish before just hooking in series. it is obvious there is a problem but just to say hook in series may still not fix it. what (I think) needs to be done is to look at the design from the start. pipe size, length, pump sizeand desired gpm etc.
remember than when hooked in series all head pressure must be added together
it is stated that the house heats fine but the water does not. now if you add the plate exchanger in line and lets say it adds as much as 10 feet of head to the system it may in fact slow the gpm delivery to the furnace enough to cause problems there as well.( the house may not heat well or it may still heat well enough but the delta t may be too low) that is why I say this whole system needs to be looked at from the beginning
with the wrong pump in this system and the added head from the plate exchanger could drastically slow the flow
I would go to the furnace first and then to a side arm and back to boiler.
I will post the pump model when I get Out of my jammies
OWB is 35 ft to f.f. furnace
Don't for- see a problem either way, if it's hooked up in series, with a less restrictive, side arm.
Yes I got hard water to boot
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Here are my suggestions on fixing this.
1. You need to fix how this thing is plumbed. Get rid of the Ts on the incoming line. After your Water to air HX on your furnace run the returning line over to your hot water heater to run through your hot water heat exchanger and then send the water back to your boiler. This step is necessary to get your flat plate or a side arm to work correctly
2. Either replace your 10 plate with a 20 or a 30 plate HX or a side arm. Either will work. If you have water that is not hard I would use a flat plate to pre heat your water. If you have hard water I would use a side arm. No need to run a pump on a plate heat exchanger either. It will heat the water up to temp just fine all the way from well water temp.
10-4.... EXACTLY!!
When I originally posted this, I did not give enough info.[didn't know]
I did not realize the flow issue until Country or Slim mentioned it.
The crazy T hookups are the main problem ,,there are other factors to consider .
The quote above splains it all
kk
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I agree 100% with confirming that the rest of the system is up to snuff. Please let us know the length of line from boiler to house, size of piping, pump brand and model, type and number of fittings in the system, size of water to air hx an that should be about it, any significant elevation change between boiler and the house and that should be it. This should allow us to be able to determine if the pump is big enough to deal with the head pressure.
FFfurnace is 40 ft from 4400.
HWT is another 12 ft.
1 inch lines [3/4 in the HWT loop]
Furnace xchanger is HTL 14X18
pump is 0011 Taco circulator.
No elevation.
Head pressure unknown
No 90* turns in the 1 in. main line, cept at the water to air exchanger in the f.f. furnace
Hope this helps?
kk
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Kommendokenny, I have a heat master MF 5000 100 feet from my boiler to my house then 15 feet to my 10 pate heat ex changer that sets at ground level, the hot water comes in from the top of the ex changer on the left side ports and comes out the bottom of the ex changer on the left bottom port. At the bottom of my water heater at the drain I have a T and I went in to my ex changer at the bottom on the right side and out the top of the ex changer on the top of the right side into the top of my water heater where the pressure re leaf valve is and I have a t there so I can still have a re leaf valve in place. Then out the hot water port at the top of my water heater to my kitchen and bath rooms.Going back to the plate ex changer where the hot water comes out the bottom on the left side of the ex changer I go to my heat ex changer in my plenum in my furnace and back out to my boiler. My boiler is set at 180 to 170 and I have 163 degree water at the farthest bathroom in my house 38 feet. and 109 degree air out my farthest heat register 42 feet. I had to put a mixing valve on my hot water side that goes to the kitchen and bathrooms. At the boiler I have a honey well three stage pump running on the middle stage on the outlet side of the boiler. that being said I be leave every thing you have will work just configure it differently. PS my son in law has the exact same set up at his house and it is 2600 sq. foot house mine is a 1800 sq. foot house. Burn times at 20 degrees has been great 15 to 24 hours depending on the wind speed outside. I dont care what any one says wind speed dose make a difference, wind will suck out the exhaust pipe or blow in changing the burn times. I hope this helps. Lines are all inch Pex.
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Thanks Ched
Thats pretty much what I have to do.
Your pump is probably more powerful but I only have to go 30 -40 ft.
Because of the hard water I may switch out the plate exchanger for the side arm.
Any Pictures of your HWT??
KK
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I think your 10 plate right now is plugged up with hard water deposits and that is why you aren't getting any hot water even after your reconfig. I would take it off and clean it out. Also with all of the specs you provided you will be fine with the pump you have.
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I agree the pump is a brute...and i am leaning to the plate exchanger being partially plugged as it was stated that with it plumbed as on demand and the mixing valve closed so no cold water could mix...that pressure at the tap seemed low. I know nothing about these type of exchangers but I would think that with 30 to 50 psi from the well that it could push through 2 or 3 gpm that a normal house runs on?
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I think your 10 plate right now is plugged up with hard water deposits and that is why you aren't getting any hot water even after your reconfig. I would take it off and clean it out. Also with all of the specs you provided you will be fine with the pump you have.
It's,,still,, not plugged .
It acted this way from day 1.
New out of the box .
Had luke warm water all last winter, thought it was normal.
Water temp in both out bound lines drops as soon as I open a faucet.
I thought we were all in agreement that the T joints were the problem ?
Poor circulation through the HWT circuit.
I'll pull it down next mild spell [May ;D] and eat crow if it's plugged!!
Cheers
KK
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I know nothing of these types of exchangers but lets take a hypothetical approach for a min.
lets say the tees in the line and the 3/4 pex to the plate exchanger are causing some low flow issue. let us say for fun only 2 gpm are going through the OWB side of your exchanger...now with your plate exchanger hooked directly to the well delivering water, lets say it is pushing 5 gpm through the plate..now you have stated you think the OWB side is cooling about 10 degree so 2 gpm is about 17 pounds of water and it cools 10 degrees so the water is giving up 170 btu per min.
now, if you are pushing 5 gpm through the cold side that would be about 43 pounds a min...divide that 170 btu by the 43 pounds of water=about 4 degrees (for easy figuring) and if we multipliled that 170 by 60 minutes that would be 10,200 btu per hour and I think that is what this exchanger is rated at (or close)
so the water on the cold side would only be heating up 4 degrees and not likely noticeable by the human touch
if the exchanger was hooked up like it was originally and working properly the water moving up the pipe would be noticeably hotter to the touch (like i said I am not familiar with these exchangers and am not sure if it would be as hot as the OWB water like a side arm gets or not) all those folks who use a plate exchanger can verify what temps you could expect
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Thanks Bill.
thats a lotta math!! :thumbup:
Merry xmas everyone.
The way it was hooked up originaly, was better.[see pics page 1]
The D.W. from the plate going into the top of the HWT was always warm [not hot].
It entered the top of the tank very slow.thus the x plate stayed hot.
Now,,, with the water pushing through the plate down at 40psi ,the exchanger can only heat a tiny bit of water before it goes cold.
Be it a plugged xchanger, or no flow, on the boiler side,it would have the same effect.
Both ways of plumbing the exchanger are unacceptable, with the separate circuit off the main 1 inch line.
Looking for a small low, low, flo inline pump to push Dwater up through the exchanger into the top of the tank.
With it circulating whithin the HWT, it will eventually get hot.
If it works I probably won't replumb the whole thing till the exchanger plugs up [for real ;D]
KK
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Please let me get this straight, your main circ goes into a tee, one side goes to your heat and the other goes to the domestic plate exchanger, if this is so then the first thing is to force water to the plate by installing a mono-flow tee instead of the regular tee or another circ on that loop, next would be to change the plumbing on the tank so that the cold domestic is forced through the plate before the tank.
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Please let me get this straight, your main circ goes into a tee, one side goes to your heat and the other goes to the domestic plate exchanger, if this is so then the first thing is to force water to the plate by installing a mono-flow tee instead of the regular tee or another circ on that loop, next would be to change the plumbing on the tank so that the cold domestic is forced through the plate before the tank.
No Slim, it is not plumbed that way see text below:
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC220016.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC160002.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/PC210004.jpg)
There is a loop between the boiler and my fffurnace in 1 inch pex red delivery and blu return to boiler.
Now,, teed into the red 1 inch go line, is a 3/4 inch, red go line to the plate hwt .pictured.
Now, teed into the the blu 1 inch return line is a 3/4 inch pex line returning from the plate hwt
this does not work, and no matter how the plate is plumbed see the whole post page one
it still does not work ....and the x plate is still not plugged
It's hard to trouble shoot this from pictures and words but all you guys have been fantastic!!! :thumbup:
I t needs to be torn down and reblumbed in a loop.See Ched Bulls post, this is what I'm going to do.
There are lots of quick fixes, from restricting flow on main 1 inch line to fffurnace, or adding pumps below the plate exchanger, or what you say.
I'm going to do it the way all the companies +Ched Bull and a few other posters say ,,,,,,, in 1 loop
Cheers
kk
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FWIW this is my set up. Plate and a side arm. Over kill? Probably. I never run out of hot water and it's bloody hot...
10 Plate on the water into the tank and a side arm on the side of the tank to keep the water hot in there when not in use. Many people will tell you that the side arm is not needed when using a plate, but I'll go a solid 14 hours before using hot water again in a day and was a little concerned about the water in the tank cooling off when not in use.
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g328/Ill_Named/IMG_20141116_124807.jpg)
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g328/Ill_Named/IMG_20141116_124736.jpg)
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g328/Ill_Named/IMG_20141116_124826.jpg)
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g328/Ill_Named/IMG_20141116_124844.jpg)
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Wow,!!!! give me overkill anyday,, that is fantastic ---brilliant.
KK
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There is one thing that I do not like with your install Ill Named, Your pressure relief valve should be before the ball valve, nearest the tank, if somebody were to close off the valves and the water heater came on, you have a pressure bomb there in your basement, at the very least remove the handles on the valves and hang them on the piping so they do not get inadvertently shut off!
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Good catch Slimjim. Being a licensed plumber, that is the 1st thing I spotted too. They make a relief valve with a long stem so you are actually getting it inside the tank and getting actual tank temp, (but that wouldn't work if it were going through a valve.)
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There is one thing that I do not like with your install Ill Named, Your pressure relief valve should be before the ball valve, nearest the tank, if somebody were to close off the valves and the water heater came on, you have a pressure bomb there in your basement, at the very least remove the handles on the valves and hang them on the piping so they do not get inadvertently shut off!
Trust me bud. I know all about that. I realized it after I got it all installed and set up and I wasn't about to change it all out just for that. There is a really simple solution to it that I have done. Those are lockable jamesbury valves. I have a lock installed on the top one. Boom, done, catastrophe adverted. :thumbup:
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Update on my DHW heater:
We switched out the plate for a shnazzy S.S. sidearm exchanger.... [N/C]
Holy hot batman !!!!!
The plate x was not plugged,,but noticed a slight restriction blowing through the domestic side.
My "Wood master" buddy said it still should of worked anyway.
I now no why they put the mixing valve on these things . :thumbup:
We are switching the upper elbo to an elbo with a valve in it this afternoon.
Now we got free heat and hot water........"what a country"
Going for another shower now :bag: :bag:
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/P1300008.jpg)
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Glad you got it figured out. More importantly, you have hot water. Enjoy it. Roger
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Yep, I thank everyone for their input :thumbup:
I learn a bit on here everyday!!
kk
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Yep, I thank everyone for their input :thumbup:
I learn a bit on here everyday!!
kk
Kenny the 50 million winning ticket was sold in north bay area.....you buying wood next year?
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Nope, no luck Bill :(
Still won't be buyin$ though...
Will be cutting as soon as I can get into the woods .
Got some stuff down and bucked, but cant get in cause of the snow![ 3ft+]
cheers
kk
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i drove back to my wood cutting spot yesterday, tractor was dragging bottom is most spots but I was able to get there, I pushed off an area with the bucket for cutting in and I plan on winching my trees to that spot. It will be a little tougher wading through the deep snow to cut the trees, but I have a spot where there are a bunch pretty close to each other so we are going to give it a shot today (sunday) if the ice pellets they are predicting are not too heavy (or wet)
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10-4 go for it .
I will wait it out.
kk