Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers with NON EPA-Certified Models Only => Shaver Furnace => Topic started by: Coach on November 04, 2010, 03:55:02 PM
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Last year I ran with my fan open almost the whole way, this year I am trying to cut it back to 50 % open and running the water temperature at 180. Just wondering what other guys are doing.
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It works so much better if you rig up a silenoid to open and close off the fan. That way it uses the whole output of the fan when it needs it. And
then shuts it down when not needed. From my experiences if you run your temp at 180* you will notice some boiling. 150-170* seems to be
about the sweet spot when it gets really cold out.
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if your getting boiling at 180 your stove has some issues. the water is not being distributed around the water chamber the way it properly should. Yes, by all means you shoulud have a solenoid to operate your flap on your stove. I wasnt aware that there was one that didnt do that besides CB's natural draft. But it still uses a solenoid.
My furnace is still operating at 150 degrees providing endless hot water and heating my 2200 sq foot home with ease. The temps here have been in the low to mid 20's at night lately.
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The only time I had boiling at 180* was before I had the solenoid on the fan. It would get to 180 and then overshoot and steam like crazy. Then I would have to add water.
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I'm running mine at 150 with no problems . You can buy the selnoid kit from shaver for 75.00 or you can make one easy enough. One guy made one out of a dryer vent tube for a couple bucks. If your interested i can dig up the thread on how to do it.
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It always amazes me that people would buy a new product that comes without basic parts necessary to operate efficiently. I am constantly reading threads talking about changes owners have made to shavers. Why doesn't the furnace come with things like draft control or aquastat? Does shaver give a reason for this?
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The reason is simple . Money ! Everything you add takes the price up . The more you pay the longer it takes until you recoup your investment. Some people actually like tinkering with them too.
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i agree with yoder, i think its pretty ridiculous that they dont come with a solenoid, it is so important to shut your stove down tight. i think it would help sales if it came complete, besides not everyone is handy enough to install one on there own.
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I dont understand why shaver does any of the things they do.. All this stuff should be standard! Not an option, because the stove simply won't operate correctly without it.
One of the sad things about the industry of outdoor wood furnaces is that sadly we are all viewed as the same thing it seems. Shaver sure doesnt help improve the image of the industry. A simple google search of shaver outdoor wood furnace is enough to scare most anyone away from any manufacturer.
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What dont you understand ? People just dont buy these things because they dont know what to spend their money on . They are trying to find a way to heat their home for less money. You haven't saved any money until you recoup the money you put out . This is a hard sale to begin with . Lots of cash up front and a lot of figuring out how to go about installing it .They offer a very simple design that lets the normal guy like myself do the install their self. Nothing complicated or to fancy to figure out. I used the stove just as it came for the first season with very good results.I did switch to the solenoid and it is better because i'm not home enough to adjust the manual slide.The stove worked well without it. I am still using the stock thermostat going into the second season . I have bought a ranco digital thermostat and will install it soon . This gave me the option of saving money and doing things to the stove at a later time. I am selling Shavers and so far every person i have sold one to have been very happy with the purechase. I see your selling Natures comfort but are on the Shavers forum . Why ? You dont have to like them , Just keep selling those higher priced stoves .
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I don't have a problem with shaver selling incomplete furnaces. I'm just trying to understand how not including a $15 solenoid and a $60 thermostat will somehow make people want to buy them. Most of my customers would gladly pay an additional $100 for a furnace that works correctly.
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there is a market for everything and many styles of the same thing. many folks get by with J.A pan tools that are cheap, others prefer a little better such as craftsman and still others will use nothing but the high end (and priced) snap on tools
all three are made for the same thing but some work better than others. the buyer has a choice and can make a good one or bad one but it is THEIR CHOICE
i am sure there are models of OWB out there as well...the "got everything" right down to the "bare bones" models
you make your choice and live with it just like everything else.
some folks enjoy 'tweaking" them and still others prefer to get one that is "plug and play" and have to do nothing but load wood in it.
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I don't have a problem with shaver selling incomplete furnaces. I'm just trying to understand how not including a $15 solenoid and a $60 thermostat will somehow make people want to buy them. Most of my customers would gladly pay an additional $100 for a furnace that works correctly.
I just dont understand why you are constantly hating on Shavers. Incomplete furnaces ,come on man just stop. I have one and i'm telling you it works just fine . So good that i used zero propane last year. Heated a 2300 sq house ,2700 sq shop with poor insulation ,hot water in both with the breaker off all year and a pool. I did all this with the incomplete furnace your talking about.
As willie said some people like messing with them ,tinkering and trying to make them better. I do ! its actually fun and a great learning expeirence. Its also something to be proud of by working to make it better.
I like it so much i started selling them .I will tell you this , with the exception of one guy, everybody else who has looked at purchasing a stove have been very conservative when adding options. They just dont want to pay a dime more than they can get the stove for . I go over options like the solenoid and the ranco ,explaining that they are worth the extra money and they just say they will add them later. Times are tough and people have to make the dollar go as far as they can .
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Like I said I don't have a problem with Shaver selling anything they want to. I did have a problem (as many other dealers have) with some of the outlandish performance claims but that is a different subject all together.
On this draft/thermostat issue I guess I am more curious than anything. I can understand shaver selling a stripped down furnace without many features that most major companies have. For example, the Heat Master furnaces come with a ash pan and shaker grate. Now of course that is nice but it does drive up the cost of the furnace. I can understand why a company wouldn't have this option so they can keep the cost low. It just seems to me that $100 worth of parts would save shaver a bunch of hassle and bad publicity. In my mind it wouldn't be worth the hassle to even offer an option without the draft control and thermostat. I may be wrong but it seems like that at least one out of ten customers would have trouble running a furnace without these options. That would lead to the dealer spending hours on phone or doing service calls. As a dealer I wouldn't have the time to do it, I'm already months behind on installations. If I had 20-30 extra service calls a year it would keep me from installing several furnaces. I guess I'm just looking at it from a dealers perspective and not an home owners.
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No ,What you said was "I don't have a problem with shaver selling incomplete furnaces" . That statement is false. As far as claims of performance well there as so many variables to consisder. I'm sure if i dig i could find lots of negative web info on any manufacture.
As for the ash pan, who needs it ? I dont. I get no more than two buckets every few weeks burning soft woods .Takes only a couple minutes to do . Not a problem at all. The shaker grate is available if any one wants one . I dont . I would rather order stuff i want and save money any day than have all these extras that i might not need or use. Every $100 matters. Now more so than ever. People everywhere have lost thier jobs or are worried they might be next.
Another thing to consider is that not everybody has gobs of skills and the simple design makes them feel like they can handle understanding and working on it if needed.Everybody is scared of circuit boards that might fail and cost a fortune to replace.Nobodys calling me asking for help or service calls.All have been satisfied..
I just wish you guys would focus on selling your brand and not waste so much time worring about Shavers and constantly dragging them through the mud.
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Russ you seem like a genuine guy and very polite, but I just have alot of resentment towards Shaver. First, let me state I sold my 165 a month ago and have never been happier to burn gas. My neighbor still has a Shaver and the other has a Nature's Comfort. There's absolutely no comparison between the two in regards to quality of construction and efficency. The Nature's Comfort wins hands down ( And no, I don't sell them).
If you have a well insulated home and cycle your pump on and off with the blower in your furnace, you will boil water. The water circulation in these stoves is terrible and the fact that the stove "Free Runs" when the thermostat is satisfied only adds to the problem. A flapper is a must. My neighbor with the Shaver's Stove always has to worry about what the temperature might be during the day and load his stove accordingly, as well as worrying about where to set the flapper. The Neighbor with the Natures Comfort loads it and forgets it. The soleniod controlled flapper is the only logical control for any entry level stove. Having a manual flapper only contributes to boiling water.
Second, a cheap $10.00 thermo disc for an aquastat is almost criminal. They will inadvertently stick, causing extreme temperatures and severe water loss. At the very least, Shaver should weld in an immersion well for adding aquastat at a later date. I detailed in another thread where I removed the thermo disc and welded in a nipple and a collar to put an immersion well on the stove to have adequate temperature control and hence voided my warranty.
Third , the silicone sealing of the top of the stove simply doesn't work. I engineered a mechanical means to hold the cover down and finally got the steam to stop soaking my insulation.
The only way this stove works, is if you run your pump 24/7 to keep the water circulated and in turn waste wood.
Russ I wish you all the luck in the world, but I can state that I feel "liberated" that I no longer have a Shaver Stove.
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I'm sorry you had a bad expeirence with them . So far I've been satisfied. I agree with a lot of your post to some extent. I have changed the thermostat and the damper mod too. I just want to state that for the money i spent i got what they were advertising. Do i wish some things were different ? Sure. That natures comfort is more money hands down. I'm not saying its not worth it but there are some customers that just arn't going to spend a nickle more than they have too. Shaver has a lot of nice things they offer like delivering and setting the furnace on the pad . That adds to the easy home owner install and a good feeling of acomplishing something yourself and keeping your money in your pocket. The hot water set up is easy to change if needed and works perfect. The silicone to seal the top plate has not been a problem for me . The door silicone is another story though. I dont like the latch too much. I wish the stove had some kind of wedge system so you could apply more pressure if needed. I replaced the silicone and it was easy enough but only lasted one year . One thing i would really like to have is a huge door so i could buy one of those log lifts . That would be a real help.I dont think other dealers should be downing stoves they dont sell.
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Russ, I'm just curious. You have talked about shaver being a cheaper option, I was just wondering if you would care to share what kind of prices you offer. The cheapest furnace I carry is a furnace that sells for $4200.00. This is a stainless furnace with a ranco and damper. This also includes delivery within 100 miles of my business.
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Russ, I went to the local hardware store and bought the largest "Rope Gasket" they had and embedded it into new silicone. It worked great and again should have came from Shaver that way. As for the latch, mine was broke when I got it. Shaver didn't deliver, we had FedEx do it. I always kept a variety of flat washers laying on top of my stove to put between the latch to add tension. The only bad thing was the latch and the door hinges are welded to 3/16 steel and when the stove heats up they will both pull forward. My door hinges were not plumb from the factory and this always caused a sealing problem around the door. Another thought is to weld an extra tab to the front of the latch, then tap it and stick a bolt through it. You could then tighten it up to take up the slack in the door.
The other nightmare was there was no sight glass nor vent tube on the overflow. Both of these have to be made and Shaver did not leave any threads on the nipple, so I had to remove the siding and cut threads on the nipple. I then threaded on an elbow and put on a piece of clear tubing with a piece of hard plastic pipe over it with a section cut out for a sight glass. I left the clear plastic as long as possible to allow my steaming water to condensate, cool and fall back into the tank, preventing water loss.
These are all things I had to learn for myself. I had countless hours of research and loss of sleep dealing with this. When you spend $5000.00, you should not have to do all that I had to do to get this stove to work. I would pay $2000.00 dollars more for all this to be done at purchase, as if you figure up my time I probably had $10000.00 dollars in a stove that at the end of the day still did not function as well as most other stoves.
Again Russ, I think you are a decent person and can respect what I'm trying to say here. I don't get a commission or even own a stove anymore, but I feel a duty to advise people about the downfalls of this stove. My friend with the Nature's Comfort came to me last year stating that he was going to buy a stove and was "sold" on a Shaver's after reading "Ben's" BS. I told him about all the problems I had and pointed him to a Nature's Comfort. I hooked it up for him and he has nothing but praise for the stove. I've tended it for him when he's away and it is nothing short of awesome. I also tend my other neighbor's Shaver's at times and well.........
If the folks at Shaver's had better customer service and would incorporate the modifications I made (I sent them to Ben) Then I would probably forget and forgive. I have decided not to file a civil suit, instead just try to educate people about this incomplete product.
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Russ, I'm just curious. You have talked about shaver being a cheaper option, I was just wondering if you would care to share what kind of prices you offer. The cheapest furnace I carry is a furnace that sells for $4200.00. This is a stainless furnace with a ranco and damper. This also includes delivery within 100 miles of my business.
Look I'm not trying to argue about who has the lowest price . Lots of things to consider. Thats not the point . You are on the Shaver forum . Why are you on here ? Trying to sell your brand ? Its kind of sad that you are on here and sell for another company.
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Rob , I can repect what yout trying to say to a degree. You were not happy with your furnace. Not everybody feels that way. I am very pleased with mine. I am a honest person and will tell you that so far everyone i have sold the customers all have said they are pleased and like them. The overflow hose , I slid on a peice of clear hose and a 90* pvc elbow,two clamps and it works fine. I can see the water level and lose almost no water.Not a problem at all. The door is ok on mine too.I would like to have a way to adjust the tension thats all . The bolt idea i had heard about before.Might try that.I have a 1/8 inch peice of metal glued on the latch now and its working. Like i said i like playing with it and improving it . I do this with all my equiptment and toys too. Always trying to improve them . Its actually fun.Thanks to these forums it makes it alot easier. We are all different . There hasn't been a single thing I've bought where i use it and say man why didn't they do this or that. We laugh at work when all the monday morning quarterbacks come in and start saying"well why did they do that or they should have done this " I wish you you could come see my incomplete product. LOL ! 2400 ft house , 2700ft shop ,hot water in both and pool. House is 187' from furnace,shop is 225' and pool is 100'. Makes me wonder how it can do all this .I'm trying to educate people too.
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Russ, I'm just curious. You have talked about shaver being a cheaper option, I was just wondering if you would care to share what kind of prices you offer. The cheapest furnace I carry is a furnace that sells for $4200.00. This is a stainless furnace with a ranco and damper. This also includes delivery within 100 miles of my business.
Look I'm not trying to argue about who has the lowest price . Lots of things to consider. Thats not the point . You are on the Shaver forum . Why are you on here ? Trying to sell your brand ? Its kind of sad that you are on here and sell for another company.
Russ, this is a forum. People discuss thing here. If that bothers you then step away. The point of a forum is to exchange ideas and discuss a topic. Why shouldn't I have a right to ask questions about other brands? If you see problems with the design of a Heat Master then post it on their page. I'm not afraid of the questions, everything can be improved. In fact I will tell you my biggest current complaint about Heat Master furnaces. On the HE models the secondary bypass door tends to build up condensation. If this gets bad enough it will drip down the front of the furnace making a nasty mess.
On the question of prices, the only reason I brought it up is because that is what you have been pushing as the reasons people buy a furnace without dampers, ranko's ect.
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I'm aware its a forum. I would think its for people to discuss ways to make their furnaces better .To improve them if possible.I dont have a problem with people discussing at all . Its the bashing i don't like . I think it shows a real lack of character to constantly put down a product you don't sell. I don't think Shavers are perfect by any standard . Its not just the money .They have a do it yourself easy design that's real appealing to a lot of people with limited funds.The warranty is good . Lots of stuff. They were the only company i talked to that actually took the time to show me how to make the 4 line insulated pex myself. With the distance i have it was a huge savings . I take offense because i have one that works fine . I've got everything i paid my money for. I'm not going anywhere . Lets just agree to disagree and leave this forum open for helping people.
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I am a long time lurker and finally feel it is time for me to chime in. I am a Shaver owner and am one of those people that bought the Shaver because of the price. Yes it does not have the fit and finish as let's say a Central Boiler.
I like it and it heats well!
I belong to another board and many of us have made several improvements. I came up with dryer vent flapper for the blower. It works very well. I have done several mods. They are all relatively cheap and easy to do.
I, as well as other members on that other board, enjoy tinkering and improving on the Shaver.
As far as the competition coming on the Shaver board to put down Shavers, I just see that they must be worried. Or else why bother coming here?
I don't see them going to Central Boiler and comparing their furnace to them. Is that because they know CB makes a better furnace?
I also don't see Hardy or CB or any other brand going to the Heat Master board to bash their furnace.
It is pretty low for someone to do that.
How thick is the firebox on the Heatmaster?
How large of an area does that $4200 Heat master Heat?
You mentioned SS, I am aware that SS can not stand up to the contraction of heating and cooling like mild steel. Some OWB companies have done away with SS because of problems that develope over time. Is Heat Master still using SS?
Does Heatmaster have an on site warranty for their furnace or do you have to send it to them to do repairs?
Anyone care to compare warranties?
How long has Heat Master been in business?
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I am not sure but I thought I read on another board that Heat Master is actually a Global Hydrinics.
Global Hydronics was selling OWBs under several names.
Not sure if Heat Master is one of them.
If so, There are several issues about them and their warranty.
I believe you actually have to send the entire furnace out to be repaired. Boy wouldn't that suck?
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I will be happy to answer the questions posed by Windwalker7. I would like to make it clear I am just a dealer and do not speak for the company in any way, shape or form.
Heat Master has been in business for 10 years. They are built out of 409 stainless, not the 304 that has problems with cracking. Heatmore is also made out of 409 and I understand they have had very good success out of it as well. Heat Masters failure rate dropped dramatically when they went to the 409SS. Heat Master builds both the firebox and water jacket out of 10 gauge stainless steel. I would ask one question about Shaver, how thick is the water jacket?
No, Heat Master has no relation with Global although they are made in the same town I believe. My father sold Global for a few years and then stopped because of all the problems.
I always take care of any warranties for my customers. If a furnace needs to be replaced I would do it at no charge, if one needs to be repaired I come out and do it. The only time I would ask a customer to ship a furnace is if the customer had come from outside of my installation/delivery area and had picked up the furnace. I would then do the repairs for free but would need the furnace brought back to me to have them done. The customer would also have the option of having a local person do the repair at my cost. In other words, any furnace that I deliver or install I would come out and repair. I have never charged a costumer for anything that is under warranty. If you want to do this long term you have to take care of your customers. There is another thread on here that is about different warranties, I have listed Heat Masters and several others have listed warranties for other brands.
My main competition in this area is Central Boiler, Hardy and maybe Taylor although their sales seem to have fallen off since Central Boiler and Heat Master have become more dominate. I don't don't see many problems with Central Boiler, in fact I tell potential customers if they want a quality mild steel furnace I would recommend a Central Boiler. If someone is looking for a 304ss furnace I recommend Hardy. I've never said Shaver was a terrible furnace, they just seem to need to make some minor improvements. Hopefully they will continue to evolve and over time will design one of the premier furnaces on the market. To be honest the first Heat Masters were no jewels, I know because I owned one. Thank God they have made improvements every year, always trying to improve their design.
You ask about the furnace that sells for $4200. It heats 3000sq ft, the firebox is 32 x 44 deep. This furnace doesn't have shaker grates and an ash pan. The cheapest furnace I sell with those options is $5100.
Let me repeat myself so I am not misunderstood. I am not saying Shaver sells a bad product that is unusable or that will fall apart in several years. I'm sure they will supply a owner many years of happy heating. I have just been wondering why they use certain design features and don't include certain features that are standard on almost any other main line furnace company. And it also has bothered me that they have made claims on efficiency ability that seem to defy logic.
I actually have had a number of conversations with Shaver about becoming a dealer so I could offer a mild steel furnace to go along with my stainless one. There is a dealer about 50 miles from me but I have heard he doesn't know how to install. I'm just not satisfied with the furnace yet to stake my reputation on it. Maybe I'm being overly cautious I don't know. Anyway, hope that helped clear this up.
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I won't dance around, I'll just come out and say it.
I realize this is a forum and is meant to ask questions. I've followed along watching and reading on this site.
I see that you sell Heat Master and it looked to me as if you were trying to bash another poster on this forum for selling Shavers.
I believe that the other poster tried to make it clear that there is a market for Shavers because of its lower price compared to other manufacturers.
I'll come right out and say that it appeared to me that you were trying to promote your furnace on the Shaver thread hoping someone researching Shavers would se you posts.
You make a claim that Central Boiler and Heat master are more dominate, yet if we click over onto the Heat Master forum on this board, we don't see much going on over there. I wonder why that is.
It appears to me that you are fishing in someone elses pond here. Yes, it is a forum but the way you come across, it seems you have other motives. You sell Heat Masters so that can be understood.
Now you wouldn't want someone going over on the Heat Master thread and start putting down you OWBs would you?
We could compare prices for your model that heas the same square footage as a Shaver or we could compare fire box thickness. Those two things are what convinced me to get a Shaver. I know from being on other boards, that is the very thing that sold those guys on getting a Shaver too. Those are Shaver's strong points.
I will admit that the fit and finish on Shavers is not up to par compared to any other OWB out there.
To me as well as others, we bought these things to heat our homes not for a lawn ornament.
I don't want to come across as a smart alic just letting you know that by being a Shaver owner I can understand why someone would buy this OWB over another brand. Even though it needs several mods to get it to where other furnaces are at, it was still cheaper with me doing a couple mods
Carry on !
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Windwalker7, I have never sold a furnace off of a forum and I doubt I ever will. I actually sell more furnaces then I can install so there is little reason for me to beg for sales on a forum. The only reason I am on here is for entertainment and the occasional helpful advice I may be able to provide as a experienced furnace installer. If you look over on the Woodmaster page you will find a thread where I have been trying to help a guy with his water flow problem.
When I referred to the dominance of Heat Master and Central Boiler I was speaking about here in South West Va where I sell furnaces. I have no idea how these brands stack up against other brands in other parts of the country.
I welcome anyone who has questions about Heat Masters design or ideas on improvements to post them on Heat Masters thread. Like I said before, there are things that I don't like about them and I have expressed my ideas about improvements to the company. I also plan on a trip to the factory next spring to better express myself and the improvements I want.
One comment on the idea of firebox thickness. There is two things to consider with firebox thickness. 1 the thicker the metal the longer it takes to rust out. 2 the thicker it is the less efficient the furnace is, there is a formula (that I can't seem to find at the moment) that shows how heat travels through different types of metal. If my memory is correct mild steel absorbs heat at twice the rate of 409 and at almost three times the rate of 304. This would mean that a mild steel furnace can be twice as thick as a furnace built with 409 and have the same rate of heat absorption. When a furnace has a very thick firebox you run the risk of not being able to absorb the heat as fast as the furnace produces it. This is the reason Hardy builds their 304 furnaces out of 16 gauge steel but Heat Master and Heatmore can build them out of 10 gauge. One other thing to watch for is the thickness of the water jacket. Most furnaces that I have every seen leak have been from the water jacket. Also the a thicker water jacket actually helps as a insulator.
As always, I enjoy the discussion.
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all good point made by yonder. i buillt my own and i can weld just about any material out there but i chose mild steel just for the ease of fabricating...i can cut it with a torch and weld it in all positions and (heaven forbid) if it ever leakes it can easily be welded with out too much cleaning as a good stick welder will dig through the creosite and ash and still produce a good weld.
and on top of that a mile steel furnace can be welded by most farmers that have the patience (and we all know that these furnaces are mostly for country folks and most have a buzz box in the garage)
lets face it folks, the old furnaces (not the new gasifiers) are nothing more than a box of some sort surrounded by water, who makes the best one? hell who knows. they all work, some say thicker is better, some say natural draft is better than forced..every builder has his sales pitch. and most that buy any model swear by it...after all they mostly don't have another model to compare to.
and if you buy one that happens to be a lemon, you may bitch about it but the next guy that got the same model may be happy for years to come. i ahve three different models in operation close to me, a heatmoretaht has been working for ten years with no major problems other than the fan rotted off....a central boiler that has only been in operation for 2 years (but i personally liked the build of it) and an old pacific western that has been running for 10 years that has leaked twice. i will say that i talk with all these owners and we all burn close to the same amount of wood when the sqare footage is taken into account was the leaker a lemon or the norm for the company? i dont know but it performs aboput the same as the rest
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Windwalker, Thanks for sharing the dryer flapper mod you made. I bought the one from Shaver.I want to try yours sometime but have to make some room first. It would be nice to get rid of the solenoid.Both the ranco and the solenoid are now available as an option . I show every customer both ways and explain what the advantages of buying them from the factory are . Most just say, "I'll deal with it later". They see that price and that's what they want to pay. I can understand that .I dont expect to sell any furnaces on here. It would be nice but its not why I'm here. I just want the people who come here to know that they work and if they buy one they will be satisfied .
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Russ is there any chance you could send me or post a picture of the solenoid setup that you can order from Shaver's. I just gave all my parts to my neighbor and he's interested in setting up a solenoid on his stove. Thanks Rob
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(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/scag52/SolenoidBlower22.jpg)
I think they are using a chain now. Still works the same.
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russ do youknow how many CFM the blower is
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yes, Mine is 50 and now they come 75cfm I think 50 is plenty though.
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Second, a cheap $10.00 thermo disc for an aquastat is almost criminal. They will inadvertently stick, causing extreme temperatures and severe water loss.
The only way this stove works, is if you run your pump 24/7 to keep the water circulated and in turn waste wood.
Hmmmm, the cheap "criminal" therm-o-disc on my 165 has been doing OK for almost 3 years non-stop..the 2 spares I got just in case are only collecting dust on the shelf so far.And I don't run the pump 24/7 and the stove works fine, so that is an inaccurate statement...This farmers 4500 sq. ft. shack has been kept nice and warm and had plenty of hot water year round with a 165 shaver whose only modification was to thread the overflow nipple and attach a 1/2" tee with a thermometer in the run of it...and since it paid for itself this summer in heating oil savings I like my shaver alot...Basic design is what I would build myself if I had the time..and it is a very basic design that works as is... But I did pick up a solenoid at Grainger today and i'm gonna do a powerflap on the blower,think it is a good improvement worth doing.My 2cents..............
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I tell you, I had my house pump running on demand and my shop pump 24/7 . I did this because my shop has 2 hanging heat exchangers running in series. I just switched it to on demand and its working perfect. Way less wood. Should have done it a long time ago.
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I tell you, I had my house pump running on demand and my shop pump 24/7 . I did this because my shop has 2 hanging heat exchangers running in series. I just switched it to on demand and its working perfect. Way less wood. Should have done it a long time ago.
i run my system the opposite my house is 24/7 and my shop is on demand My shop is a home made closed system with an expanshion tank and i run an antifreez mix in it. when i am not going to be out there i leave it off. then say if i am planning on going out there saturday morning to work i turn it on fiday night and it is warm for morning. I can't see why i would waste wood running the house 24/7 there should be minimal loss on teh underground lines and any heat loss inside the house is not really lost.
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Well a couple of things for me . My shop is 225' away from the boiler. Then theres 65' inside the shop and i just keep it 40* until i go in there. I dont want it to freeze. l dont feel like winterizing stuff.So most days when I"m not out there it doesn't even need to turn on. Before it was just constantly running and going through the exchangers it loses heat . I know its inside but remember thats 515' of pex round trip. I made my own pex up also. two 1" and two 3/4 with a foam strip to seperrate the supply /returns,wrapped in solar gaurd and placed in 4" pvc . 36" below ground.
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I agree with WillieG, with quality insulated underground pipe there is very little difference between on demand pumping or 24/7.
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I agree with WillieG, with quality insulated underground pipe there is very little difference between on demand pumping or 24/7.
I couldnt agree more.. With the quality of underground pex piping thats available. I see a lot of benefits to a continuous feed. I use a triple wrap that comes in a very flexible white pipe and yesterday I was working outside with it and a home-owner was running his stove at 165 and his line was laying on the ground with snow on it.
Also, when you consider there is a lot of line options out there where you can have water exiting the stove at 180 and arriving at a source 100ft later and still being like 179.7. Whats the difference? lol
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When i installed mine the cheapest i could find was 12.00/ft . There was no way i could have paid that. It would have been a lot easier trust me. Last year i had to load every 12 hours now I'm at 24 hours plus. I just cant believe the difference.I did build a building around the stove. I wired it with a switch to go back to 24/7 in case i need too.Was worried a little about hot spots but so far it seems fine.
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When i installed mine the cheapest i could find was 12.00/ft . There was no way i could have paid that. It would have been a lot easier trust me. Last year i had to load every 12 hours now I'm at 24 hours plus. I just cant believe the difference.I did build a building around the stove. I wired it with a switch to go back to 24/7 in case i need too.Was worried a little about hot spots but so far it seems fine.
Yea if your not running top quality underground line I'd say you can tell a difference.
A friend of mine has a hardy and just has pex in the ground, it loses 30 degrees before it gets to his heat exchanger. It's nuts!
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I need to check my lines with a heat gun. I can use one from work. Should be ok , I used schedule 40 pcv. 20ft lenghts. I still think with a short run would be ok to let run. With 515 ft and running through 2 big hx there has to be heat loss. Its working perfect now. I just went out to load it and it had been 26 hours. Still had wood in it . I was amazed. I'm afraid to touch it now its working so well. Its been real windy here and in the 20's at night.
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Well a couple of things for me . My shop is 225' away from the boiler. Then theres 65' inside the shop and i just keep it 40* until i go in there. I dont want it to freeze. l dont feel like winterizing stuff.So most days when I"m not out there it doesn't even need to turn on. Before it was just constantly running and going through the exchangers it loses heat . I know its inside but remember thats 515' of pex round trip. I made my own pex up also. two 1" and two 3/4 with a foam strip to seperrate the supply /returns,wrapped in solar gaurd and placed in 4" pvc . 36" below ground.
well russ i am 250 feet one way plus all the pipe in the house that is 500 feet of underground pipe adn i know from experience about underground pipe. i can tell you that 12 bucks a foot is cheap and something you should not cheap pout on. back 11 years ago i bought "the best" available at the time pex wrapped in bubble wrap insulation shoved down a 4 inch sewer pipe...worked great for a few year then my wood consuption went up like crazy and the ground never froze over my pipes. this year i saved up and bought the good stuff for the 12 bucks a foot (yes 250 feet of it) i should have done it 5 years ago! I am back to 14 and 16 hour burns with wind chills at -10 and 24 hours if the temp stays above freezing and calm.
by a cheap furnace and but the best pipe you can find!
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Well that was just for my house.If i spent 12.00 /ft back then it would have been over 7,000 for just the pipe. I just couldn't swing that much then .I must be ok for now because I'm getting good burn times now. I did a few things recently though. Built garage around stove,ranco thermostat at boiler and in garage Hx, and changed garage to on demand. So maybe It is all of this combined making the difference.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/scag52/Wood%20Shed%20for%20Outdoor%20Furnace/389Copy.jpg)
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well this is the first time in about 5 years i have seen snow on the lane over my pipes and the ground froze 250 of thawed ground in mid january had to be using a lot of btu's i am calculating by the wood pile so far that a savings of about 4 bush cords or more. that will work out to about 1 free year in every three or if i were to sell the 4 cords per year i save at (the going rate here) 200 bucks a bush cord x 4 that is 800 per year 4 years and my pipes are paid for
plus, if you are running your domestic water on your OWB you pretty much need it to run 24/7 if the water in your underground pipes has to travel 250 feet and it had cooled to say 100 degrees before any demand is called for, your domestic water will be luke warm for a few gallons before it is up to dishwashing temps. (those are my thoughts anyway) also talk to any pump guys, they will tell you what wears out a pump faster than anything else....starts! my taco 0011 is original equipment this is year 11, one start per year. On in October, off in June
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I run dhw in both house and shop. Two seperate pumps and water coils in boiler. Both run on demand.Works very well. Almost endless hot water. I couldn't ask for any better set up other than maybe a ranco instead of the disc style. No need to run 24/7.
I had heard it was easier on the pump to run on demand than 24/7 . It never made sense to me . I would think what you said would be true.
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it works for you so i agree...why change what is working. I have never thought of doing on demand and likely, niether of us are gonna change, LOL
another thing i would wonder (thought it is clear it has never happened to you and you have a long run of pipe)
with the water stopped moving for an extended period of time i wonder if the air bubbles in the water (we all know there is some in these open systems) could ever migrate to each other in a high spot in the undergorund pipe and cause an air lock
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Not sure .I"ve only been set up this way for a week now . Wasn't sure if it would work so Thats why i went with a switch to go back to 24/7 at the shop. House is perfect with on demand and has been that way since install last year. What i was afraid of with the shop was water sitting so long that it would cool and when starting up would overwhelm the boiler . So far so good .
No air locks yet but who knows with time.
I was wondering , Do you know how many ft of 1" pex it will take to make 1 gallon of water ?
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I was wondering , Do you know how many ft of 1" pex it will take to make 1 gallon of water ?
1 inch pex 0.03128
1 inch pex ala pex 0.04351
so for 1 inch pex it would take about 3.2 feet of pipe to require 1 gallon of water (that is at about 56 degrees)
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Thanks Willie. How much will it change @ 150* ?
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Thanks Willie. How much will it change @ 150* ?
how much will temp change? i have no idea i do know that when i start my furnace in the fall the water in the stove i let get to temp before i turn on the pump. it seems to take about 1.5 or 2 min before i feel warmth at the entry into the house and then about one more minute before it feels like it is up to "can't hold on to the pipe anymore" temps