Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => Plumbing => Topic started by: Sluggo on January 12, 2015, 04:53:23 PM
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The buffer tank theory has been discussed quite a bit on here but I'm having problems finding a clear answer. I came across a free 80 gallon water heater. When it's extremely cold I can get some pretty drastic delta t. What's the benefits and downsides of a buffer tank? Where is the best location to put it? Lines come from my stove into my garage and at that point everything splits to do it separate task. I have easy access to everything at that point.
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I soo wish some good knowledgeable guys would discuss this, my bro says I need one as I only have an electric furnace which has no storage maybe 5 gallons tops,so when I have temp drop he blames it on no storage, he has oil furnace prob 30 gallons storage...
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imo,it depends what u want to do.!!
1-do u want a heat store
2-do u just want buffer
I use buffer which i have in my basement.300 gallon which really isn`t much in
comparison to european setups
they can really help with on-off cycling.stops the shock of cold water on inflow on ur stove.
BUT recovery times can be long so u have to be vigilent on firing and keeping a regular schedule
don`t think ur gonna gain alot of heat by adding capacity of 100-300 gallons
to do that u would need to add thousands and make sure to keep heat losses to a minimum
some are for and some against but what i can tell u is this
1-heating a larger buffer tank allows for a super clean and efficient burn
2-stopping short cycles will save u wood
3-reduced creosote deposites
4-less smoke (burn open wide open)
there could be more but i can`t think of any right now
some commercially sold buffer are small like say 40 to 80 gallons
i tried that route for a while and was not impressed
just not enough capacity to make much of a difference(for me)anyway
cons 1-to much heat loss at tank and ur gonna have to fire that much extra to try to get it up there
2-extra space needed for tank
3-some setups require extra pumps etc
i can say i much more enjoy firing wide open and after temps are good i just maintain till it needs a hard fire again
with the smaller tank u fire like u normally fire ur boiler but in real cold temps the extra is not
really enough to make it worth while and its just a headache to keep that extra hot
imo either go bigger or just leave it alone cause it can hinder as much as it can help
if anyone else response i will go into detail about piping etc
i`m curios what info is out there as i am always tring to improve my system also :thumbup:
twiw, i am no expert,just a guy who likes to tinker and try things so i`m learning to
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In my opinion, a buffering tank will definitely help with the surge of cold water returning from the cast iron rads, just be sure the tank has at least a 1 inch coil so you don't restrict the flow on the main loop.
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thanks guys, its def something to think about, if so, it will be a summer project,along with a horse barn and too many other things to list....thanks again guys...
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Remember, your OWB can only put out so many BTUs, it does not matter weather your radiant application is taking those BTUs or it is your buffer tank (you can only get so many BTUs out of your boiler).
Buffer tanks do help with the extreme spikes and dips that can occur. Another way to help reduce this is to run the pump between the OWB and radiant application all the time.
Also agree with DUKEtheBEAGLE; by adding the volume of a buffer tank to the system it can reduce the reaction time of coming up to temperature, because of the extra load it is putting on the OWB
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ljohn is right ,you only get so many btu's in a firebox.
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There are really only two ways that I know of other than a buffer tank to reduce the shock to your OWB
- Increase pump speed, may not help if the BTU load of radiant is greater than boiler
- Install a mixing device, to maintain the return temperature to OWB at 140+
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yup sounds about right.
also people think by installing buffers,they will get more heat output.
naaaaah!! eases the load on stove but don't give extra heat
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You guys are exactly right about the not producing more heat but yes the buffering tank will decrease the shock, I'm not a fan of the mixing valves as they do reduce flow.
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Slim, you state that you dont like mixn valves, what other options are there, honestly, i just put in mixn valves this fall, and you know what, my system hasnt been right since, my garage is always calling for heat now, basement infloor acts up now and then, and the mixn valves make alittle noise in the furnace room, house still really warm , but you always know when something just isnt right...
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Ayuh,.... I believe I'd be takin' that 80 gallon tank, 'n usin' it as a hydraulic separator, 'n doin' the boiler as the primary loop, 'n the radiation on the 2ndary side,....
Easy, simple, ya might need 1 more pump,....
Fewer starts, 'n slow-downs for the owb,....
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Mixing valves have their place, in my opinion that place is not on the primary loop, the primary needs to have as little restriction as possible in order to satisfy the heat loads in the secondary system. For those guys with cast Iron rads and in concrete radiant, mixing valves are almost imperative, concrete should be mixed down on the supply side and rads should be mixed up before returning to the main loop.
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Slim, not to get off topic, but how do you like your new job.? Are you at liberty to discuss your new adventure.????
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Sluggo, The buffer tank for me has really helped quite a bit for my app.. I have an old 2inch pipe-gravity system with huge cast rads.. A benefit for me is when i have pump on between boiler(45 gal) and tank (80) i get a lot of thermo-syphoning into the system.
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stratton, so far I really like it, HeatMaster seems to really have their finger on the pulse of the industry. I have been asked to give my opinion of the new EPA regs and have been spending time before my trip to the factory attempting to understand those rules as well as LOTS of time moving snow. In the short term I see very little to no good coming from the EPA regs but we do have to live with them so we might as well understand them. For those companies that wish to stay in the industry, understanding the rules as well as who is pushing them will be a major priority, for example, I know many companies are looking to build auto feed Bio Mass / chip boilers for light commercial use, P+M has one now that was tested at 42% moisture content and passed, the new rules are written that only 35% or less moisture content chips can be used, I think this is a deliberate attempt by the pellet industry to squash the future chip boiler industry as fresh green chips (not dried) are around 42% -45% moisture, of course this depends on species and when the wood is chipped, the point is that nobody will be drying chips in order to burn them, another thing that I have learned by reading what I have of the rules, did you guys know that part of the rules states that only licensed and graded pellets can be burned in a pellet boiler or stove. 3 Questions, #1 What happens to the little guy who invested in a pellet mill to supply his local community? #2 Whom do you think is behind the rule? #3 Whom do you think benefits most by forcing the drying of chips before burning them? I have come to a conclusion that this industries biggest problem is not Gas or Oil but instead the pellet industry, Perhaps a new thread is in order!
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:post:
Other than spreading the chips out on a slab then moving them around and covering before every rain I can't see a easy way for a homeowner to dry chips. I suppose a person could find some older small grain bin, run the chips in with a ear corn elevator then run the fan to dry the chips, then of course you get to shovel the chips out of the bin.
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leave it in a field all summer and chip in late summer
;)
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wow, what a bunch B.S. I want you guys to do a little research on an author by the name of Ayn Rand. She is famous for the book Atlas Shrugged. If you have netflix , there is an excellent documentary on her ideas and philosophy of big GOVT... She was a true visionary
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leave it in a field all summer and chip in late summer
;)
Most people are buying their chips from how I understand it. Unless you're just gonna chip very small limbs, the price of a decent sized chipper and maintenance is more than what most are willing to spend.
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leave it in a field all summer and chip in late summer
;)
Most people are buying their chips from how I understand it. Unless you're just gonna chip very small limbs, the price of a decent sized chipper and maintenance is more than what most are willing to spend.
ya but if u had all ur wood ready to chip rental on one can't be more then 100-200 bucks a day
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If a person was to rent a chipper, shouldn't be hard to find wood that will be under 35%. Some of the dying ash I dropped last winter towards the end of February was already down to 25%.