Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: wardog on February 06, 2015, 09:34:06 AM
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I bought an updraft gasification outdoor wood hydronic boiler several years ago and just got it all installed and using it this winter. This boiler is not like the outdoor shed types but one of the smaller looking ones that doesn't take up a lot of back yard space. It is a closed system that uses boiler antifreeze with about a 25 gallon capacity. I have kept records of all the wood burned as well as it's moisture readings as this thing was advertised and sold to ONLY burn cured dry wood. I fired it up for the first time mid November and ran it for about six weeks in which it seemed to use a lot of wood and having to load it every 4 to 6 hours when temps got into the teens or lower. I also noticed what appeared to be antifreeze leaking from the back of the firebox running down the framework after about three weeks of burning it. Having cleaned out the ash pan numerous times I had never noticed any sign of it being wet inside the fire box but my antifreeze level was dropping. I shut the unit down and called the manufacturer to report what I had seen in a mere three weeks of use and the amount of wood being used as it was advertised as using HALF the wood of other brands. I was told that there was no way the unit could leak antifreeze from that spot unless it was leaking inside as well, which I did not see any signs of. I was told that the inside had to be cleaned about once a week including removing the grate to assure it was all clear of any residues. I had been emptying the ash pan as it only took two days to fill up but never thought I would have to remove the grate and clean all that as well. I removed it all cleaned it up, and redid the plumbing and added temperature gauges in both the lines so I could tell the temp exiting the boiler and the temp of the returned antifreeze. I then started it again on Feb. 1 and have burned it until this morning Feb. 6. I went out to load it his morning and it had completely burned out over night in approx. 8- 9 hours. I decided to do the complete cleanup including removal of the grate, by the way this had already warped pretty badly and one of the cross bars had cracked and found that the corner opposite the one on the outside that appeared to be leaking antifreeze had a glob of tar looking stuff. Upon cleaning that away I saw a leak on the inside of the firebox right along a weld in that same corner. To this point I have NOT seen this on the inside and the manufacturer states that most inside leaks are caused by folks burning wood too green. I'm no wood boiler expert but it seems a pretty good stretch to say that burning too green of wood for less than 2 months would cause such a leak. I told them that I have kept records of each load of wood I have burned from my barn storage of which I have had stored from 3 to 10 years and not a single load was more than 25% moisture with most being between 14-20% taken with one of those two prong moisture meters. The manufacturer then stated that those things were not accurate and I told him probably not as I would have thought that as long as I have had all this wood stored the moisture would have been less than what it showed. I also told him that I had burned 7 cords of wood in that short time and if that was half of what others burn then these wood boilers are a waste of time and money as that is for only about two months into a winter where we have not had much very cold temperatures. I'm of the opinion that this leak has nothing to do with wood moisture but rather faulty material and or workmanship. I also question this brands ability to perform to what is advertised and to certainly not burn half as much wood. I'm looking for those that know these wood gasification systems and what this scenario sounds like as I'm thinking this is a pretty good sales pitch and using the cured dry wood is a cop out to accepting responsibility for selling an inferior product.
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lots of gasification guys here > http://www.hearth.com/talk/forums/the-boiler-room-wood-boilers-and-furnaces.13/ (http://www.hearth.com/talk/forums/the-boiler-room-wood-boilers-and-furnaces.13/)
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Welcome, Wardog.
I'm no expert but I have owned 2 different true gasification boilers on the same house for a direct comparison.
I've seen ads for the stove you own and have even talked to a man who called me when I had my first gasifier for sale. He had the same boiler as you and almost the exact same story. Unfortunately there is no accountability for making and selling crap.
If you want to continue heating with a boiler, buying one with a good standing reputation is what may be in your future. Members here will help as much as possible.
Russ.
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What make and model is this stove?? I've never heard of an updraft gasser that runs with 25 gallons of antifreeze!
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I'm pretty sure its on ebay as "lil powerhouse".
Seems like the term 'gasification' is thrown around pretty freely these days.
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OK so it sure sounds like defective product to me, could you post what it is for sure, we need a make and model #, pictures of the stove and leak will help, if you can't upload the pics, Please send them to one of the moderators and ask them to post the pics! if it is a leaker and the manufacturer will not honor the warranty then send them a link to this thread and perhaps they will then decide to step up to the plate.
Bashing the product will do nobody any good but facts, dates and records could certainly help if published here.
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Welcome.
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Thank you all for the welcome and the replies up to now. I purposely did not state the brand but did give a pretty good description. It is actually advertised as an outdoor wood-fired hydronic heater and once looking at it over it goes on to say "the finest in updraft gasification. I have a ton of pictures that I have sent to the manufacturer but have not gotten a response from them since I cleaned the boiler and actually found the inside of the firebox wet. I do not know how to post pictures on here and will wait until the manufacturer has had ample time to respond to my concerns other than state "it's all about burning too green of wood." Guys, I've never had an outdoor wood burner of any kind and I am what's green but common sense tells me that my wood isn't too green and even if it were not cured as long as it has been, 6 weeks of burning too green wood would NOT cause a firebox leak that quickly especially when it appears right on a weld seam.
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Every manufacturer out there will occasionally have one that slips through with an issue, the important thing is how they handle the issue, I think you are handling it well by not bashing but you should certainly keep on them to have it fixed!
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My intent with posting here was NOT to bash but rather to get input from those with the experience or experts about if this unit leaking in a mere 6 weeks or less and if burning 7 cords of wood in an area where the winter thus far has been relatively between 20-40 degrees is the norm for an OWB and if not why. I'm in the Midwest so we don't get the drastic cold as those further north get and from what I have seen from this one I would have froze to death even at these temps or burned all the "cured" wood in my area. I am searching for those with experience or expertise so I can have some knowledge to be able to say, that burning green wood could even cause this to happen in 6 weeks and using that much wood is totally out of the norm.
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A leak this soon after the initial install being caused by poor wood quality is ridiculous, that is simply an excuse period, as far as wood consumption, we would have to have an idea of your heat load, underground pipe choice and more info about the install and stove.
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My home is 16 years old with 2352 square feet over a poured concrete basement that is 1680 square feet. I do NOT heat the basement per se but that is where the furnace is that is a combination heating/air conditioning electric heat pump system and I know there is some bleed off. The OWB is 40 feet from the house that is plumbed with 3/4" pex pipe running through the 8" basement wall into 6" schedule 40 PVC pipe that is glued together into one continuous piece. Inside the 6" PVC is 5" diameter 4 foot long, two piece Styrofoam insulation that has two 1" or so holes in the middle for the pex. This is made specifically for this purpose by Foam Plus LLC. The pieces of foam are then duct taped together and slid into the schedule 40 PVC. This one piece sealed pipe runs about three feet deep in the ground and is stubbed up into a concrete slab that my OWB sets on so as to enclose the pex in that PVC. There is approx. 205' of total pipe in a closed loop system that is filled with the 25 gallons of boiler anti freeze. 80' of the total length of the loop is in the ground on the outside of the basement with 40 feet from the boiler to the basement and 40 feet returning from the basement back to the boiler. This closed loop runs through a 50S brazed plate domestic water heat exchanger and then to a 16x18 water to air heat exchanger in the furnace plenum which is as big as I could get in the plenum. The system has a taco o11 pump circulating the anti freeze. I don't remember the size of the firebox but I load it as full as I can which is about 18 pieces of split wood about 20" long. The vast majority of what I have burned is red oak. I have temperature gauges installed in both the exit and return lines and I seem to get about a 30 - 35 degree drop in temperature when it has been in the low teens. When it is around 30+ it doesn't seem to show much loss. The firebox only has what appears to be a foil colored bubble wrap around it with the seams taped with actual foil tape. I'm going to try to put a picture of the boiler below.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/warddog/Woodboilerpictures011_zps007c174c.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/user/warddog/media/Woodboilerpictures011_zps007c174c.jpg.html)
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Now we are getting somewhere, I'm not happy with the numbers on the supply and return temps, 35 degree difference between supply and return under a full load is a lot of loss for a low water volume stove, you could very well be shocking the boiler, let me guess, the return port dumps back into the boiler right where the crack showed up, I suspect that you are losing a lot of heat in the loop underground from ground water infiltration, 3/4 inch pex is pretty small pipe to be running on a Taco 0011 circ, I would bet it is pretty noisy huh. I am hoping you bought the pipe through the stove manufacturer or their rep as then they cannot use it as an excuse for the stove failure, if not you just gave them an out. I'm going to PM you my contact info, Please send me photo's , contact info for yourself and the manufacturer along with purchase and use history, I am pretty good with resolving issues and perhaps could help.
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Thanks for helping out a fellow wood-burner, Slim. It's good to have guys like you around.
:thumbup: :thumbup:
Cando
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I agree Cando slim is one heck of a guy!
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Thanks guys but don't be afraid to jump right in with your opinions as wardog is not here to bash and truly does have a problem stove, he has sent me some pics where the leaks can be seen and is only looking for advice on how to handle the manufacturer, perhaps we can all help in some way, if it is OK with wardog I think I will call the manufacturer today and try to speak with them.
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I am fimiliar with this boiler this was my first boiler I bought about 8-9 yrs ago and did last all that time with extreme heat loads that my place put on it my biggest problem was amount of burn time it could not handle my home6 hrs max burn time and that was on a mild day 4 hrs on colder days anyway I put up with it until last year while loading the boiler I hit the back of the firebox and punctured a hole lost all of antifreeze .. And I replaced ithe boiler instead of repairing it the forebox is 16gauge steel very thin and I guess after yrs of burning the box wall got even thinner.. The owner is a great guy and very knowledgable I know he does sell the firebox seperate u can replace it for around $600 plus to have a welder rip it apart I know it sucks been there..
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Thanks to all who have had input on this thread and to those who have PM's me as well. I am looking for definitive answers to a lot of questions I have pertaining to OWB and it appears that I find mostly subjective answers. I totally understand that circumstances can vary by situation but I have some questions and or concerns as a product consumer that I think an industry should be able to answer definitively. Please bear with me on the length of this post.
Why would an OWB, gasification furnace be designed to burn only dry, split, cured wood. I am curious as to what that actually means? What is a recognized method of knowing the moisture content of the wood one is burning and is there an industry standard as to what is considered dry, cured wood. Is one of those moisture meters that I see firewood dealers use when selling dried cured wood an accepted means of measuring moisture content? What is the basis for burning dry, split, cured wood and does burning wood up to say 25-30% moisture cause the firebox to fail prematurely or is it merely an issue of efficiency in that green wood uses up the heat in just drying it first? What is the standard gauge of metal used in an OWB firebox especially one that is a gasification boiler. What exactly defines a gasification OWB, is it simply forcing air into the combustion chamber such as a forge would do? I know the EPA has gotten involved in this industry and is it the standard for ALL those EPA tested, to burn only dry, split, cured wood. Are all OWB required to burn dry, cured wood and if not why?
Would a boiler the size of the one I pictured would be able to heat the same size building, on the same amount of wood that was cut, split and cured for a years heating with one of the huge outdoor wood boilers heat it for two or three years longer? Here's a several thousand dollar question, will burning wood at 20-30 percent moisture content cause a firebox or the welds to fail if burning such for a time period of 6-8 weeks? How about having an OWB sitting in a totally enclosed pole barn for a couple of years without any liquid in the reservoir causing the firebox or welds to fall in this very same 6 to 8 week time frame? What would those with experience and expertise think about a claim that a jar from a 6” tree limb striking the cabinet of such an OWB causing cracking or breaking the welds on the opposite diagonal corner inside a firebox? I’m a novice on OWB and welding but all I have heard about welds is that they should actually be as strong or stronger than the original pieces of metal joined together if done correctly?
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I don't care if you burnt wood that was 50% moisture, in the first year there is no way it would rot through. the stove leaked in the first 8 weeks on a seam?....bad weld , that's it!
I have made diesel tanks, gas tanks, hydraulic oil tanks all out of metal as thin as 12 gauge steel, these tanks are out in the weather and bounce through some pretty rough terrain, they don't leak
You Sir, are just one of many who get a lemon and come to find out, the manufacture does all he can to get out of warranty. Those here (like Slim) that may have some pull with the manufacturer may be able to explain to them that there may be a lot of bad publicity from a story on a site such as this one as it sees a lot of traffic.
I wish you luck.
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Thanks to all who have had input on this thread and to those who have PM's me as well. I am looking for definitive answers to a lot of questions I have pertaining to OWB and it appears that I find mostly subjective answers. I totally understand that circumstances can vary by situation but I have some questions and or concerns as a product consumer that I think an industry should be able to answer definitively. Please bear with me on the length of this post.
Why would an OWB, gasification furnace be designed to burn only dry, split, cured wood. I am curious as to what that actually means? What is a recognized method of knowing the moisture content of the wood one is burning and is there an industry standard as to what is considered dry, cured wood. Is one of those moisture meters that I see firewood dealers use when selling dried cured wood an accepted means of measuring moisture content? What is the basis for burning dry, split, cured wood and does burning wood up to say 25-30% moisture cause the firebox to fail prematurely or is it merely an issue of efficiency in that green wood uses up the heat in just drying it first? What is the standard gauge of metal used in an OWB firebox especially one that is a gasification boiler. What exactly defines a gasification OWB, is it simply forcing air into the combustion chamber such as a forge would do? I know the EPA has gotten involved in this industry and is it the standard for ALL those EPA tested, to burn only dry, split, cured wood. Are all OWB required to burn dry, cured wood and if not why?
Would a boiler the size of the one I pictured would be able to heat the same size building, on the same amount of wood that was cut, split and cured for a years heating with one of the huge outdoor wood boilers heat it for two or three years longer? Here's a several thousand dollar question, will burning wood at 20-30 percent moisture content cause a firebox or the welds to fail if burning such for a time period of 6-8 weeks? How about having an OWB sitting in a totally enclosed pole barn for a couple of years without any liquid in the reservoir causing the firebox or welds to fall in this very same 6 to 8 week time frame? What would those with experience and expertise think about a claim that a jar from a 6” tree limb striking the cabinet of such an OWB causing cracking or breaking the welds on the opposite diagonal corner inside a firebox? I’m a novice on OWB and welding but all I have heard about welds is that they should actually be as strong or stronger than the original pieces of metal joined together if done correctly?
The moisture content of wood has no affect on the integrity of the welds. Moisture in ashes can cause corrosion in metal over time, but not within 6 weeks. Just because a boiler burns wood with or without aid of a blower does not make that boiler a "gasification" unit. Turning solid wood into heat and smoke is not the definition of secondary gasification. 20% mc is considered cured or fully seasoned. Unless your underground lines are complete crap, or you are trying to heat your house with the windows open, you should not have used as much wood as you stated in the first post.
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The point is that the person you are speaking to at the manufacturer is simply attempting to use your lack of knowledge to cover up their mistake, there is no way that the firebox rotted out that quickly.
I read their entire page, I did not see anywhere that they said this unit was a gasifier and it is certainly not, perhaps verbally they may have eluded to it but that would be a hard one to prove. The stove I saw was nothing more than a tank in a tank with some pretty outrageous claims as well as some pretty damaging claims of the rest of the competition. I would welcome a conversation with the guy on the other end of the phone or better yet to have him pull up his big boy pants and come on line to justify his claims.
Wardog you have sent me photo's, I have looked at them, even the tree limb falling on the box should certainly not have damaged the firebox to the extent of leaking.
In my opinion, call him out to defend himself, send him a copy of this thread via E-Mail along with the stats, there are over 5000 members here, if he will not do it here then small claims court will work, regardless his company will not be around for long as that model unit will never pass the EPA mandate and he will no longer be allowed to make / sell them in this country, get what you can before he goes belly up and chalk it up to a learning experience
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:post: :post:
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To update this situation I have been in contact with the manufacturer and even had a welder he recommended out to look at the boiler to see about repairing it. When the manufacturer got back with me he stated that we needed to fill the boiler with water to see where the actual leak was. I said OK, I would continue to try to work with him and when it warmed up I went out with 25 gallons of HOT tap water and filled the boiler water reservoir. I didn't see any leak on the inside of the firebox but did see the small dripping on the outside of the firebox when I removed the access door to look at the water level. I left the water sit in the boiler for nearly four hours and never did see it leak on the inside of the firebox but it continued to have a small leak running down the outside corner at the back of the firebox. I drained the water because of the cold temps and sent the manufacturer an e-mail of what I found and to tell him the welder would NOT be able to fix what they could not see. I got NO communication from the seller after my e-mail so I posted for expert advise on another forum of www.hearth.com (http://www.hearth.com) and was surprised to see another person that had the same problems with one of these units and a thread going back to 2009 about this very unit at http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/lil-powerhouse-boiler.29342/ (http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/lil-powerhouse-boiler.29342/) After I read through the 6 pages of discussion and seeing the same ole rambling on from the manufacturer without addressing any of the issues, I called the manufacturer. I told him that his request to put water in the reservoir did NOT show a leak inside that the welder could repair BUT it did show the exact very same leak on the outside of the firebox. The phone went dead and after several minutes of silence, I said Hello, hello are you still there and he responded "YES, I'm just trying to think where that leak could be and thinking I will have to go back and look at the pictures you sent." At that point I told him I was tired of messing with this unit and I knew he would NOT return my money as he has never accepted any responsibility for the issues seen in my unit in the short 6-8 week time frame of actually using it so would he be interested in buying it back CHEAP? His answer was NO. Of course my patients were wore then and the conversation then went south and I told him he left me no choice but to advertise his unit on eBay where I bought it and that I would NOT back down from listing item as I saw it. He then said he would sue me if I libeled his company to which I replied, "I am not the other guy that listed his defective OWB that he purchased from him on ebay but he got him to remove the ad by threatening libel and in fact I cherish that opportunity to defend his allegations in court!" I knew discussing this claim of libel with the manufacturer was an exercise in futility so I hung up with him. As soon as I can get good pictures of this "Finest in GASIFICATION" LIL Powerhouse Hydronic heater I will post my used unit for sale that even the manufacturer would NOT buy back. OH he did say he would repair it for me BUT that would mean I would have to pay shipping to/from of 1000 miles one way plus material and labor as it had only a 90 day warranty. This is why I asked for expert opinions and I may need them in court BUT I think I have to do this to prevent unknowing consumers as I was go uninformed about this particular manufacturer. It appears there are probably more other than me that have had such problems in short usage time periods. here is a link to the thread from the other site for your reading pleasure http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/lil-powerhouse-boiler.29342/ (http://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/lil-powerhouse-boiler.29342/)
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I just listed this OWB for sale on eBay should someone be looking for "The finest in updraft GASIFICATION" technology. I've heard and read that ALL the big manufacturers are trying to obtain this technology!
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The add has had 267 views and 6 watching but not a single offer or question about it as of yet. Maybe I didn't make myself clear that this is "The finest in updraft GASSIFICATION" that ALL the other big companies are trying to copy! I understand that my add was a little difficult to read through so I revised it for better reading, Evidently that didn't help as I have had numerous views of it without folks jumping on this to make an offer. I am curious if I made it clear how great this "lil Powerhouse" is and in that it is advertised as what the BIG companies use as their lead?
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Could not find it on ebay
Got a link??
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I read your ad. It was quite lengthy and wordy. I know your situation but by reading your ad I couldn't tell if you were actually trying to sell it or make a point about your experience with the company in order to save someone else from the disaster.
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I read your ad. It was quite lengthy and wordy. I know your situation but by reading your ad I couldn't tell if you were actually trying to sell it or make a point about your experience with the company in order to save someone else from the disaster
I am guessing he is trying to get his point across without opening himself up for a slander law suit.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-Outdoor-Wood-Boiler-/331499876466?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d2eeeb072 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WOW-Outdoor-Wood-Boiler-/331499876466?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d2eeeb072)
The eBay listing.
I read the thread on Hearth.com and definitely WOW!.
I also googled the manufacturers name, another WOW.
The mathematics are challenging. One load produces c2m BTUs, looking at the fire box size if you could put in a solid piece of wood it would be 1/10th of a cord and equal 80% efficiency. As that would not be physically possible efficiency must be over 100%.
And that would be a load of over 500lb in a boiler weighing 800lb.
How do you transfer 500, 000 BTUs using 3/4 inch per?