Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Central Boiler => Topic started by: Roger2561 on October 31, 2015, 04:33:02 AM
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The guy I hired to weld the seam closed of the primary air channel, in the back corner of my E-Classic 1400 called me earlier this week saying he will no longer be doing anymore welding job on OWB's. I guess he was hired sometime a couple of weeks ago to patch one for a guy a few towns down. A few days later he received a phone call from the guy claiming his welding made the leak worse. Being the honorable business man he is, he went down with all of his gear to fix what he supposedly broke. After inspecting the water jacket, the leak was on the opposite wall of the OWB, nowhere close to where he was welding. The customer claims the hole was due to he not doing a good enough job welding. Because he never touched that side of the OWB, he feels he's not responsible for the leak. If the guy wants it fixed, he has to pay for it. I agree with him. But, the guy now refuses to pay the welder for services rendered. Off to small claims court they go. So, due to the hassles of dealing with the guy, he's no longer welding for the general public, he's only going to do what he been doing all along; weld for businesses. I have a feeling this was the straw that broke the camels back. So, back to the drawing board to see if I can line up another welder for the just in case scenario. Trying to locate a welder that does house calls is becoming more and more difficult.
Enjoy your weekend everyone! Roger
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15k into the OWB and we need to have a welder on standby... priceless
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I have welded on a lot of "junk" over the years, trying to get "one more season" out of it (not just stoves but crap tanks, fuel tanks, all kinds of things) and I have found with OWB its a hit and miss (50/50) you might find a stove that had some slag trapped in a weld or a seam that the welder didn't get right on and drifted a little off to the side and it let go, these are patched up and the stove may go for years with never another problem. (good news)
Then there are the real junkers that pop a hole out in the middle of no where, chances are you will chase this hole for a day, or put one big patch over it, but there is also a very good chance another hole will pop up next week, is it bad steel, corrosive water? I don't know but it can sure discourage a good welder when it happens and the owner does not understand or will not admit that the welder is not at fault. I have welded a few but I refuse to weld one for anyone other than friends that know the risks. (of course for friends I weld for rum)
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Let me guess, the rum is to steady the hand and improve the eyesight?
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Let me guess, the rum is to steady the hand and improve the eyesight?
at my age...need all the help I can get Slim
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I know the feeling, depth perception gets harder every time I pick up a stick welder!
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15k into the OWB and we need to have a welder on standby... priceless
As my late dad used to say, if it's man-made, it'll break, at the worse possible moment NOT when it's NOT being used. I'm starting my 5th season operating my OWB. I have been meticulously babying this thing due to the price tag. Heck, even the welder I hired to close the gap in the air channel said I'm doing a great job maintaining it. But I also know that it may spring a leak anytime it desires to do so.
Corneroffice - I hope that's all I ever need from the welder, just standby for the "just in case" scenario. Oh, that reminds me; test the water to be sure the treatment is up to snuff.
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I know the feeling, depth perception gets harder every time I pick up a stick welder!
I'm like Fred Sanford, special glasses for everything..bi-focals to walk and see normal but still use a larger than needed set of dime store cheaters for welding, I got a drawer full of them from 1.5 to 3.5
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15k into the OWB and we need to have a welder on standby... priceless
Corneroffice - I hope that's all I ever need from the welder, just standby for the "just in case" scenario. Oh, that reminds me; test the water to be sure the treatment is up to snuff.
So I get home last night and I hear a beep beep coming from the boiler... o no... the display is showing 000, o no, low water. The boiler has been running well for my second season (I got it used, its a 2008). So I check the sight class and sure enough its low. I check the basement first for a blown pipe, nothing, inspect around the boiler and it all looks good... but im thinking this is not good... I decide to fill the boiler to see if I can see whats going on. With the fire box door open I see a strange build up of creosote on the right wall about 3/4 the way up. I scrape a bit of it away and instantly a pin hole of water is shooting into the firebox. I then scrape a bit around it to see how bad this is and another hole opens up. Continue to clean around the area and no more holes but the area the size of a 1/2 dollar is very soft to the touch. I bet a soft tap of the hammer would go right through.
I have never had to add water, the PH and nitrate tests are right on the money.
Im sure based on what I have read on this site that CB is not going to give me any love, Im not the original owner (although the unit is only 8 years old) and I have had to do a slight mod to the air channels as they were riddled with cracks and not working any longer. I do have a call into them, so fingers crossed.
Plan B is what Im planning for now.
1 - looks like folks have success patching the infected areas. I have a few good friends that weld so I have access to that.
Also sounds like if Im going to patch this area I should clean and thoroughly inspect the entire jacket to ensure there are no additional weak spots developing.
2 - Dump the CB and look for a new one...
IF there is a silver lining in any of this, its the end of the season and I was planning on a shut down in a few weeks.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions or comments.
Jody
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Mild steel can do weird things, I’ve replaced pieces in other applications that was more like swiss cheese than metal, cut the bad area out and the rest looked like new. I’ve welded numerous fuel tanks on heavy trucks as well that would just pop a hole in the middle of no where for no good reason.
On farm repairs, if I’ve done it before and it rotted out again, it gets replaced with stainless. Botton of augers, fertilizer spreaders, conveyors, bottom of the grain leg etc. Some things no matter how meticulously maintained like to be a pain in the butt.
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The guy I hired to weld the seam closed of the primary air channel, in the back corner of my E-Classic 1400 called me earlier this week saying he will no longer be doing anymore welding job on OWB's. I guess he was hired sometime a couple of weeks ago to patch one for a guy a few towns down. A few days later he received a phone call from the guy claiming his welding made the leak worse. Being the honorable business man he is, he went down with all of his gear to fix what he supposedly broke. After inspecting the water jacket, the leak was on the opposite wall of the OWB, nowhere close to where he was welding. The customer claims the hole was due to he not doing a good enough job welding. Because he never touched that side of the OWB, he feels he's not responsible for the leak. If the guy wants it fixed, he has to pay for it. I agree with him. But, the guy now refuses to pay the welder for services rendered. Off to small claims court they go. So, due to the hassles of dealing with the guy, he's no longer welding for the general public, he's only going to do what he been doing all along; weld for businesses. I have a feeling this was the straw that broke the camels back. So, back to the drawing board to see if I can line up another welder for the just in case scenario. Trying to locate a welder that does house calls is becoming more and more difficult.
Enjoy your weekend everyone! Roger
Some people were certainly placed on this earth to try everyone else’s patience.
Several years back our county decided that all septics had to be installed by licensed and bonded contractors, so Dad got into that for awhile as we already had a mini excavator, tracked skid steer, laser, and a dump truck, also did it to keep the hired man busy in the summer.
Had a lawyer draw up a contract for when he did inspections before a closing on a house. Even had a line about “current condition of the system is no guarantee of future performance” and a line next to it to be initialed by whoever orders the inspection.
He did one in the drought of 2012, saying it was dryer than a popcorn fart in that area was the understatement of the century, hadn’t rained in at least month in that part of the county.
He does the inspection, everything works as it should, he signs off on it, new owners take possession. The next year is the exact opposite with several record setting rainfalls, system gets water logged and fails, owners sue Dad as it’s his fault it rained too much.
Didn’t goto small claims either as they came up with some obscene number to replace the system and of course included “mental anguish”. Went to court, judge seen the initialed line and tossed it out right there after ordering them to pay for dads time and lawyer.
A few other things like that and he got out of that business even though it was very lucrative as once the licensed and bonded thing went into effect a lot of fly by night guys disappeared and the price of a system doubled.
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You're not alone on problems with CB units. I welded in a new floor for a friend of mine on his 11 year old CB. He was not religious about cleaning out the ashes every year and it finally ate through the floor at the back left corner in the middle of the heating season last year. Came home and found water running out his loading door. His had no warranty left on it and it is a big old plain jane model. The factory said to get a new unit or weld in a new bottom. I cut large holes in the old floor for the water to circulate up to the new floor as I had to raise the new floor up about 2 inches to get to good metal on the sides to weld to. The original floor was one piece with 2 bends in it. I had to replace it in 3 pieces and a lot of weld rod.
Been working good for 2 seasons now but he knows he is on borrowed time.
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Update on the situation.
Had a welder come by to see what he could do
we cut out the leak (4"x4" area) to make sure we got it all.
We were both surprised on how thin the water jacket was (he felt it was 20ga).
upon attempting to weld a patch in, he was unsuccessful largely do to the patch was too thick and the existing water jacket too thin.
He needed to get new stock and a Mig to finish the job.
I feel like this is only the beginning - ugh
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continuing to work on the patch. 2nd attempt has failed. the water jacket keeps splitting at the weld because its such thin crapty metal.
Welder has 1 more idea of a patch, next option is to plate the entire side of the water jacket with something thicker then the tin foil Central thought would be a good idea
Im only 500 into the "fix", wtf right??
Honestly, not sure im comfortable at this point, having an issue pop up in Feb will put me over the edge.
Im ready to crap can this thing and buy anything but a CB, time is ticking so I need to do something within the month....
Folks local to NH, what options for boilers are out there? 1800k sqft house and a future garage is what I heat.
100% wood
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I'm specializing in boiler swap outs, come see us at the Lancaster NH fair!
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Im ready to crap can this thing and buy anything but a CB, time is ticking so I need to do something within the month....
Folks local to NH, what options for boilers are out there? 1800k sqft house and a future garage is what I heat.
100% wood
Give a G200 serious look, 409 stainless to avoid those rust thru problems and a company that strives to keep its customers happy.
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this may sound dumb,but my dads cousin lives in coldbrook n.h.
i think his is a central and its about 6 years old and it had to be shipped away twice to be welded because
of leaks.one day we were talking at the shop and i mentioned that i repaired mine once with
that j.d weld putty.you know the one in a stick you break a piece off and squeeze together .
anyhow it worked for mean i told him to give it a try.
you don`t need to empty the boiler.just clean around the hole and voila.
was costing him a fortune in shipping charges and if he welded it himself it voided the warranty
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You know, I never even gave the J.B.Weld stuff a thought. What the heck, I think I'll give it a try seeing the problem is around the air channel. Thanks for the tip.
I have cousins who live in Colebrook, N.H. also. It's been years since I last visited them. My brothers and I used to go up every year for the blessing of the motorcycles at the Shrine on Rte 3. It's too bad it closed it's doors. It was a beautiful place to visit. Roger
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j.d weld putty.you know the one in a stick you break a piece off and squeeze together .
anyhow it worked for mean i told him to give it a try.
thanks for the thought, this has passed my mind, but my concern is in Feb when its 10 below and the JB fails... however I may be trying anything at this point.
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i did a bit of research.muffler and exhaust sealant is rated at 700`f.may not be great in direct fire
but may work in non direct parts as a quick temp fix.
perma tex is one type.j.b weld also makes this.
my fix with j.b stick weld was not in direct fire but was exposed to some heat
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So we have completed welding - welder ended up needing to get very creative on a patch but hes done and ready for testing.
Fired up the boiler last night and all is good. up to temp and no leaks, yet...
sure is nice to be back online for the time being. fingers crossed.
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If its just the water jacket and NOT exposed to flame, Versachem makes a epoxy specifically for repairing radiators. Takes heat very well and I’ve used it in the past on radiator reservoirs and even a few oil tanks. Its the same company that I use their fuel tank repair product on diesel tanks on our trucks until I get enough spare time to remove the tank, steam clean it and weld a proper patch on.
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If its just the water jacket and NOT exposed to flame, Versachem makes a epoxy specifically for repairing radiators. Takes heat very well and I’ve used it in the past on radiator reservoirs and even a few oil tanks. Its the same company that I use their fuel tank repair product on diesel tanks on our trucks until I get enough spare time to remove the tank, steam clean it and weld a proper patch on.
thanks, unfortunately its on the inside (fire side) of the water jacket where were welding. no access to the back side without major demo to the shell and exterior of the water jacket.
day 3 and its all good - so far...
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day 3 and its all good - so far...
You should be good if it's still holding. I had almost the same issues last winter. My CB started leaking on the inside of the firebox. My brother in law is a pretty good welder but, we had many of the same problems you describe in getting a weld that didn't leak. My brother in law was embarrassed of the final product, it wasn't pretty but, it is still holding. I know that I didn't sleep for many nights wondering if it was going to start leaking again.
I can't complain though. This furnace is over 20 yrs old now and is still going strong.
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day 3 and its all good - so far...
You should be good if it's still holding. I had almost the same issues last winter. My CB started leaking on the inside of the firebox. My brother in law is a pretty good welder but, we had many of the same problems you describe in getting a weld that didn't leak. My brother in law was embarrassed of the final product, it wasn't pretty but, it is still holding. I know that I didn't sleep for many nights wondering if it was going to start leaking again.
I can't complain though. This furnace is over 20 yrs old now and is still going strong.
Thanks for the vote of confidence!
My welder was feeling the same, looks like a high school kid with a stick welder did the job.
but if it works, it works.
20 year old CB? Didnt know they made them for that long...
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20 year old CB? Didnt know they made them for that long...
They have been making furnaces since the mid 1980's according to their website. Mine was manufactured in 1996, I cant complain about it's longevity.
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i bet you put epoxy on it and when its dry put a bit of stove cement on it,it would work
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20 year old CB? Didnt know they made them for that long...
They have been making furnaces since the mid 1980's according to their website. Mine was manufactured in 1996, I cant complain about it's longevity.
Neighbor has a CB that’s two years older than the homemade I built in 2000, so his is a 1998 and he’s still using it. He’s not sure how much life is left in it, but he’s gonna use it this winter.
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Yeah, I am not sure how much life is left in mine. I am going to use it until I can't, but I have been eyeing up those G series units lately.
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Vote for a g series here. :)
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My buddy installed Central Boiler's Edge 750 last winter. I'm totally impressed with it. Getting higher reaction chamber temps than I do with my E2400 and the firebox seems to burn drier with less creosote build up. He paid $2,000 less than I did for my E2400 that I bought back in 2010. CB has made a ton of advancements since their first gasser back in 2007. Self modulating air throughout each burn cycle rocks when you check out how it works on the XP wifi history charts. I still think the combustion temp sensor and self air modulation is the feature that sets it apart.
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My buddy installed Central Boiler's Edge 750 last winter. I'm totally impressed with it. Getting higher reaction chamber temps than I do with my E2400 and the firebox seems to burn drier with less creosote build up. He paid $2,000 less than I did for my E2400 that I bought back in 2010. CB has made a ton of advancements since their first gasser back in 2007. Self modulating air throughout each burn cycle rocks when you check out how it works on the XP wifi history charts. I still think the combustion temp sensor and self air modulation is the feature that sets it apart.
Boilerman - I'm entering my 6th season with E-Classic 1400. I fired her up 2 weeks ago. I'm heating an 1840's farmhouse approximately 4500sqft. I know that I'm on the high end of what this thing can handle. I'm impressed that it can handle that amount of square footage. I know there will be a time when I'll have to replace it. At this time, it's not showing any signs of corrosion. CB says they have a new Edge with titanium stainless steel. What is titanium stainless steel? When hear a description like that, generally it's followed by a lot of dollar signs. Can offer any insight or information as to what titanium stainless steel is? Thanks, Roger
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Titanium enhanced stainless steel is regular ole 409 stainless just like Heatmor and Heatmaster already use, I think maybe Crown Royal? also uses it.
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Titanium enhanced stainless steel is regular ole 409 stainless just like Heatmor and Heatmaster already use, I think maybe Crown Royal? also uses it.
Thanks, mlappen. I think "titanium stainless steel" sounds fancier than 409. :-\
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Yes Roger, mlappin is right on the money. The Edge Titanium Series is a Titanium Enhanced 409 Stainless. It is the best stainless option for outdoor furnaces and is the same option as those offered by the companies mlappin listed. If looking for extended corrosion resistance it is a great option, but does cost more.
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Yes Roger, mlappin is right on the money. The Edge Titanium Series is a Titanium Enhanced 409 Stainless. It is the best stainless option for outdoor furnaces and is the same option as those offered by the companies mlappin listed. If looking for extended corrosion resistance it is a great option, but does cost more.
Yes and no, up front it does cost more, but given the longer service life the per year cost over the stoves life is much lower.
Basically if a person is only worried about what it’s going to cost today but not in the future, 409 stainless may not be for them.
I’m a strong believer in stainless in the right applications, I’ve ordered several stainless steel bearings for a few spots in the grain drying setup, getting tired of changing the same ones every year.