Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: ralphxj on January 04, 2016, 10:56:18 AM
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New guy, first offcial post, although Marty has been posting for me.
I have had my new boiler up and running for a couple of weeks. It's an Ecomax Farm Blaster 125.
The problem I'm having is I can't seem to get water hotter then 150-160 into the house, even with the boiler at 200 (reading on both the aquastat and front temp gauge)! I have a digital temp sensor on the line where it enters the house, and get the same temp readings of 150-160 with my infrared thermometer. When I first fired it up I was getting readings of 170-180 when it was 60 outside. Now that it's cold, I can't seem to get the temps up. All of the lines and fittings at the back of the boiler are fully insulated.
The boiler is currently 35ft from the house with the insulated lines on top of the ground (it will get moved next summer with the lines burried). I currently have snow on top of the lines, so it's not losing any heat through the 5 wrap lines. I'm running a 15-58 pump and have run it on both Medium and High and seem to get the same results.
The lines into the house are 1in pex inside of 5wrap Badger pipe and then switch to all 1in copper lines. I have snow on top of and under the insulated lines (they are raised with wood slats to not kill the grass) so I don't think the is the issue. The lines are insulated where they pass through the wall of the house and the surrounding blocks are cold, so I'm not heating them.
I'm at a loss for where to check next????
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Where does it pull water from the boiler? Top or bottom and what is the temp there? With nothing else to go on it sounds like it could be a circulation issue within the boiler.
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It pulls from the top of the boiler and returns at the bottom, as per the install instructions. That's the only other thing I could think of as well, but not sure of the solution? There are 2 top ports and 2 bottom ports. I am using the 2 on the left, thinking I could try to return on the opposite side to try and get more water circulation?
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Are you sure the readings you are getting in the house are accurate? It seems strange that you are losing that much heat from the boiler to the house if you don't have any snow melt with the lines just sitting on the ground.
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I've tested with multiple digital monitors and my hand help, not sure what else I can try? They are all reading the same. That's why I'm so puzzled!
Reply from the manufacturer about the temp diffrence between the aquastat and water outlet: "They are 40 inches apart so that is possible. 160 degree water is plenty. Turn up the aqustat to accommodate."
Any issues with just turning the aquastat up to like 200-210? Will I boil is over if the water temp at the rear is lower then 200?
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Gonna have a lot more evaporation issues wit the water running at 200-210, and turning it up doesn’t explain where the heck the heat is going.
Is it possible to get an accurate reading as the water leaves the boiler on its way to the house?
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Hi sounds like you may have a flow issue. Did You removed check valves in pumps. Flush boiler out maybe mice packed acorns in it ? Just a thought.
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Also what is the type of heat exchanger you r using??
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I did not remove the check valve in the pump. How do I remove it?
I'm not sure how to get a more accurate reading on the water leaving then reading the temp at the rear fitting on the boiler?
If it is circulation issue within the boiler, I thought about getting a small 007 or something and running it on the other 2 ports on the boiler to keep the boiler water moving around the boiler?
I have a 20plate hx for the domestic and then a 50plate for the baseboard heat.
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If it is a grundfos 15-58 Alfa there is 7 hydraulic settings for that pump. And it shows the flow on the digital readout in the back.
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If you hooked in series threw the 20 plate exchanger that is your restriction I believe. Need to hook in parallel with mono flow tees.
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I have bypassed the HX's and just ran it as a loop, not change. The pump is not the Alpha, just the standard 3 speed 15-58.
Edit: bypassing the HXs again, looks like it might coming up in temp after all. So if that is the case, do I need a larger pump??
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You lost me there somewhere. How does a small pump make you lose heat between the boiler and house. By the way I've ran to a 20 plate exchanger than to a water to air hx for the past 8 or nine years. No problem and no restriction.
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The only thing I can think of, is the flow rate is low and the return water is being pulled right back into the outlet at the boiler. Bypassing the HXs increased the flow which caused the water to mix with the heated water in the boiler?? Or I have I run out of ideas and fried my brain at this point??
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I don't know. I always thought you pulled from the bottom and returned at the top to help with circulation.
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Could some foreign material found it’s way into one of the flat plate HX?
Does the manufacturer suggest a minimum flow rate anywhere?
Still sounds to me like you have some kind of restriction in one of the late plates.
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I don't know. I always thought you pulled from the bottom and returned at the top to help with circulation.
Depends on the manufacturers preference.
My G series pulls from the bottom and returns to the top.
I did the same on the waste oil boiler I built in the fall of 2014. Water exciting the bottom is always within a degree or two of what the Ranco claims the water is in the top.
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How much wood are you using? If ur using tons then ur loosing heat somewhere, if your not using craZy amount of wood then you may have troubles at the stove
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I still don't see how a flow issue could cause heat loss. Put a inline thermometer in the supply line at the boiler and I bet it is the same reading he is getting at the house. That statement his manufacture gave is complete crap. It sound like they already know there is a circulation problem within the boiler.
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Not sure on the wood use, I don't really have a good baseline to say how the usage has been. I'm getting 12hr burns over night, but have been home most every day since it's been running so I've been running smaller loads and haven't kept track of use.
Should I pull the check valve in the pump and see if that makes a diffrence?
Everything seems to be working, just at a lose for why my temps in the house are low!
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I could not find a good definition of parallel flow for two heat exchangers. But here is a very basic sketch
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Heat master g series pulls from the bottom. That is the hottest area where the gasification happens. Not sure on your model.
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Ralph how r the hxs hooked in compared to my sketch??
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Hawken, Heatmaster, you want to pull from bottom and return top. Top return line goes to front so you git a front to back circulation.Not all are that way. depends how it's plumed on the inside. Ran into someone had a unit that had no return tube to front of the boiler and he could never get decent hot water out of the unit. only circulated between the ports. Follow instructions.
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Mine is setup like the right side. Goes through the 20 plate first then the 50 and then back out to the boiler.
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That is the way I would do it.
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Smokeless, The greatest heat exchange on your gasser takes place on the tubes at the rear of the furnace, your top return has a tube internally to pour return water on the exchange tubes.
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A 20 plate should be fine in series with a 50 plate. If you do parallel or mono flow tees will probably have issues getting enough hot water.
If the restriction was a problem, a 30 plate or a secondary loop with it's own pump will work better.
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I just quickly read through the replies so I may have missed it but have you checked the temperature of the pipes at the back of the boiler compared to inside the house? When you turn on a hot faucet in the house, how much does the boiler line out of the 20 plate drop? If it is still hot then I doubt you have a flow problem.
If it isn't too hard to do, I would move one of the connections so supply and return are on opposite sides. Also, if you can put a pump between the other two ports, that would tell you pretty quick if the problem was related to flow inside the OWB.
Does the manufacturer recommend connecting the supply pipe to the top port? If not, I would connect so the return is at the top. You may want to just try it anyway if you can easily change it over. The reason most brands pump this way is to mix the water in the tank. Returning the colder water at the top mixes much better. when pulling out of the top, the water may only be 180 at the very top and cold at the bottom.
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I just quickly read through the replies so I may have missed it but have you checked the temperature of the pipes at the back of the boiler compared to inside the house? When you turn on a hot faucet in the house, how much does the boiler line out of the 20 plate drop? If it is still hot then I doubt you have a flow problem.
If it isn't too hard to do, I would move one of the connections so supply and return are on opposite sides. Also, if you can put a pump between the other two ports, that would tell you pretty quick if the problem was related to flow inside the OWB.
Does the manufacturer recommend connecting the supply pipe to the top port? If not, I would connect so the return is at the top. You may want to just try it anyway if you can easily change it over. The reason most brands pump this way is to mix the water in the tank. Returning the colder water at the top mixes much better. when pulling out of the top, the water may only be 180 at the very top and cold at the bottom.
Temp at the back of the boiler is within 1-2* of the line into the house at all times. The temps in and out of the house with the HX's open are always close, until someone is using the hot water and the house is calling for heat at the same time, then it drops 10-15 or so.
I was thinking about swapping the return at the boiler to the other side. Mfg recommends the return at the bottom, which is how I have it. I can always flip the pump direction, which would reverse the flow and return to the top to test it?
The other thought I had was to extend the top port farther into the boiler (closer to the front) by sliding a slightly smaller pipe inside the 1in line.
I have until Friday before I can really do much as I have to return to work tomorrow! :(
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Shepardb yes agreed the heat is from the tubes in back. Slimjim taught me to remove the check valves in the pumps that service the boiler. there could be dabree there. Ralph said he did not
Remove the check from his. Also i agree with Ralph another circ on the boiler 007 will help equalize the internal temps of boiler water.
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Shepardb yes agreed the heat is from the tubes in back. Slimjim taught me to remove the check valves in the pumps that service the boiler. there could be dabree there. Ralph said he did not
Remove the check from his. Also i agree with Ralph another circ on the boiler 007 will help equalize the internal temps of boiler water.
I will start by removing the check valve on the pump. If that doesn't help would I be better off adding a second pump on the other ports, or extending the top port further into the boiler? I can turn a 3/4in pipe to fit inside the 1in line and leave a shoulder so it doesn't slide in too far?? Extending the line would be cheaper then buying another pump.
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Yes Ralph try the check valve removal first. N check for dabree. That would b cheapest.
Where are you located ?
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If you are only getting 15 to 20 degree drop under load then removing the check valve won't do much.
Turning the pump around may work for a while but it will not last very long on the return line.
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I'm in Youngstown Ohio. I'll pull the check valve first, maybe I'll get a chance tomorrow after the little one goes to bed.
Name is actually Aaron. Ralphxj is a username I've used forever, Ralph was my favorite Simpsons character.
Thanks everyone for all your help!! Now if I could get this many replys to my thermostat question in the electronics forum.
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Good luck!!! keep us posted.
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OK, I would like to chime in, I've been working on painting the Magic Bus so I've been busy but Please allow me to make a few suggestions.
First, you definitely are having some flow issues, it could be circ size, air in the wood boiler loop, small pipe sizing, water not mixing in the boiler or a plugging heat exchanger but you definately have a flow issue!
I drew this up this AM to try and help. I think first I would start with removing the check valve on the wood boiler loop and putting your make up domestic water line in between 2 valves as pictured in the diagram, close the return line and add street pressure water to the loop backwards, this will help clear any debris from the heat exchanger as well as eliminating any air trapped in the supply line, after you are sure you have good flow back to the boiler and no air is trapped then open the return valve, close the supply and repeat adding street pressure to the return and eliminate the air there, open both supply and return, turn circ on and check flow again.
I realize that lots of you folks have in the past have had good luck with putting your heat exchangers in series but I think with the newer units that require high flow rates, you will need to adjust your way of thinking and start doing simple primary / secondary plumbing as well as using larger primary piping.
The plate exchangers will eventually plug up and in a series loop all components will starve for flow, in a primary secondary loop it will be easy to diagnose which component is plugging and clean it accordingly.
Ralph, I also think adding a second circ on the back of the boiler will help stabilize your water temp in the boiler but I would try these suggestions first. I would not add a pipe into the inside of your unit because it will again restrict the flow and you don't want to have that increased.
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Any tips for removing the check valve? Do they just pull out with needle nose pliers?
I will see what I can do to flush out the HXs.
The boiler will be moved after this winter, it will be around 120ft from the house. Would it be smart to just get the bigger pump I will need now and see if that fixes the issue? Or will I just be hiding.the issue until I move the boiler next year?
Slimjim, thanks for the info. Looking at your drawing, I'm seeing 4 diffrent pumps? My current setup is only running 2! One for the oil boiler and zones loop and one for the wood boiler loop. This is the first I'm hearing about monotee's, looks like my months of research on my system setup missed some options I could have considered.
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Needle nose pliers for the check but be sure to get the plastic seat that gets left inside the circ as well, this can be a bear but normally heating the circ housing will help with prying it out with a screwdriver, be sure to dump out any broken plastic stuck in the circ after removal.
Yes each zone should have it's own circ in order to first control the heat and second to promote the best flow rate possible through the main heat exchanger.
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Any tips for removing the check valve? Do they just pull out with needle nose pliers?
I will see what I can do to flush out the HXs.
The boiler will be moved after this winter, it will be around 120ft from the house. Would it be smart to just get the bigger pump I will need now and see if that fixes the issue? Or will I just be hiding.the issue until I move the boiler next year?
Slimjim, thanks for the info. Looking at your drawing, I'm seeing 4 diffrent pumps? My current setup is only running 2! One for the oil boiler and zones loop and one for the wood boiler loop. This is the first I'm hearing about monotee's, looks like my months of research on my system setup missed some options I could have considered.
I take it your running the nominal 1” pex? As in the ID of the pex is actually under 1”? More like 7/8”?
A bigger pump can push enough water thru it, but if you add anything later, hot tub, snow melt, an addition you’ll be hard pressed to force enough water thru the smaller line.
Might want to consider getting either the nominal 1 1/4” pex or going with Logstor to get the higher flow without needing an expensive pump that will pull more juice for years and years.
Since I was already on the page, this is what slim was referring to as a strap on aqua stat, http://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L6006C1018-High-or-Low-Limit-Circulator-Strap-On-Aquastat-65-200F-range-5-30F-Adj-Differential-1738000-p
(http://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L6006C1018-High-or-Low-Limit-Circulator-Strap-On-Aquastat-65-200F-range-5-30F-Adj-Differential-1738000-p)
And you mono flo T: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Legend-Valve-Monoflo1x3-4-1-x-3-4-Copper-Monoflo-Tee-6314000-p (http://www.supplyhouse.com/Legend-Valve-Monoflo1x3-4-1-x-3-4-Copper-Monoflo-Tee-6314000-p)
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i need to hire one of you guys to come redo all my plumbing inside when the time comes.....lolol....way over my head
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On a side note, what slim described with a primary/secondary loop is exactly what I’m in the process of changing over in the basement now. Mine was pretty simple though and worked for years, nothing but a sidearm and from their to the furnace HX.
Now I’m adding a 20 plate to the DHW so I always have plenty of hot water for washing equipment, already have the snow melt in and adding two radiant loops, one for the bathroom and another for the office. Once we get the upstairs remodeled and add another heat duct if we still ain’t happy with the amount of heat we get upstairs I’ll be adding another plate exchanger and building a mini pressurized system to get the hot water upstairs either for more radiant if I have my way and goto hardwood floors or baseboards if the wife gets hers and we stick with carpet.
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i need to hire one of you guys to come redo all my plumbing inside when the time comes.....lolol....way over my head
Think of it like this, your primary is the main electric line that comes into your breaker panel, your secondaries are the circuits attached to your breakers or fuses.
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Needle nose pliers for the check but be sure to get the plastic seat that gets left inside the circ as well, this can be a bear but normally heating the circ housing will help with prying it out with a screwdriver, be sure to dump out any broken plastic stuck in the circ after removal.
Yes each zone should have it's own circ in order to first control the heat and second to promote the best flow rate possible through the main heat exchanger.
I'll try to pull the check valve tonight, hopefully all goes well.
My house has 3 zones and only 1 pump. It's worked great since we bought the house 6 years ago, and it's been that way since the house was built almost 40 years ago! So you are saying I would be better off adding a pump to each zone?
I take it your running the nominal 1” pex? As in the ID of the pex is actually under 1”? More like 7/8”?
A bigger pump can push enough water thru it, but if you add anything later, hot tub, snow melt, an addition you’ll be hard pressed to force enough water thru the smaller line.
Might want to consider getting either the nominal 1 1/4” pex or going with Logstor to get the higher flow without needing an expensive pump that will pull more juice for years and years.
Since I was already on the page, this is what slim was referring to as a strap on aqua stat, http://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L6006C1018-High-or-Low-Limit-Circulator-Strap-On-Aquastat-65-200F-range-5-30F-Adj-Differential-1738000-p
(http://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywell-L6006C1018-High-or-Low-Limit-Circulator-Strap-On-Aquastat-65-200F-range-5-30F-Adj-Differential-1738000-p)
And you mono flo T: http://www.supplyhouse.com/Legend-Valve-Monoflo1x3-4-1-x-3-4-Copper-Monoflo-Tee-6314000-p (http://www.supplyhouse.com/Legend-Valve-Monoflo1x3-4-1-x-3-4-Copper-Monoflo-Tee-6314000-p)
Right now I'm running 1in pex in my insulated lines. When the boiler is moved out to 120ft from the house, I will be going with 1.25in Logster. Inside the house everything is 1in copper. The 40ft of 1in that I'm currently running will be used for heating my shop when I need it, most of the time it will just be a simple loop to keep it from freezing.
I have no problems redoing part of the system in the house with monotee's next spring/summer, but I'm hoping to not have to do any major rework now, my wife already thinks I'm spending too much time tinkering with it
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your just getting started...my wife thinks im nuts :)
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your just getting started...my wife thinks im nuts :)
Someday as finances allow I’d like to have everything controlled by web.
Away from home and it starts to snow? Grab the smart phone and start the snow melt. Wanna work in the shop, grab the phone and turn the temp up. Gonna have an unexpected guest, grab the phone and turn the heat up in the guest bedroom.
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your just getting started...my wife thinks im nuts :)
Someday as finances allow I’d like to have everything controlled by web.
Away from home and it starts to snow? Grab the smart phone and start the snow melt. Wanna work in the shop, grab the phone and turn the temp up. Gonna have an unexpected guest, grab the phone and turn the heat up in the guest bedroom.
That's all part of my plan as well!! I've already started to design a custom Web interface that takes the Control By Web info and converts it into a nicer visual/graphic gauge type setup like the Central Boiler Firestar setup! Now I just need the x300 to run it!
That will all come next summer when I move the boiler.
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your just getting started...my wife thinks im nuts :)
Someday as finances allow I’d like to have everything controlled by web.
Away from home and it starts to snow? Grab the smart phone and start the snow melt. Wanna work in the shop, grab the phone and turn the temp up. Gonna have an unexpected guest, grab the phone and turn the heat up in the guest bedroom.
That's all part of my plan as well!! I've already started to design a custom Web interface that takes the Control By Web info and converts it into a nicer visual/graphic gauge type setup like the Central Boiler Firestar setup! Now I just need the x300 to run it!
That will all come next summer when I move the boiler.
NICE!!
I used to mess with stuff like that, used to even mess around doing my own apps for Palm Pilots. Don’t have the patience for that anymore and usually I end up drinking way too much while messing with it and my liver has asked that I please leave it to someone else. I have a guy I rent hay ground from that a wiz when it comes to all of that including the new HTML5.
He got bored awhile back and even wrote a game for his kids that has turned into quite the hit on the interned.
https://itunes.apple.com/app/id625411864
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Pulled the check valve, although it's above freezing and I can't tell if it helped or not. One thing I did earlier this week was I cracked open the bypass valve for the HXs just a tiny bit. It seemed to help keep the line temps up by increasing flow, but didn't change the heat at the HXs. I will probably keep doing that until it gets cold again and I can see if removing the check valve helped at all.