Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => HeatMaster => Topic started by: schoppy on February 11, 2016, 12:34:32 AM
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Got another question for you knowledgeable guys. If a boiler (any brand or model) is rated at X max output or X BTU output for 8 hours does that assume the firebox is full to accommodate that BTU output?
I have the G400 now so does it's rated output assume a full firebox to achieve it's rated spec sheet data? I would guess this is also with a good hardwood for the firewood?
Not sure how they arrive at their numbers, anyone know?
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The G series was independent Lab tested for white tag label, so those results are what the lab observed under test.I believe the C series was tested on Heatmaster's own lab. A lot of older heatmaster and other brands just pull a number out of the air that makes no sense. One brand says that an indoor furnace in a house should run only half the time so a outdoor furnace rated at 200,000 btu should be able to cary 100,000 btu continous and still be rated at 200,000 btu. There was some thought that epa was going to put a min of 350,000 btu on commercial units and they would be exempt, so they spec'd all their furnaces over that figure. If it's got a white tag lab test believe it. Otherwise it's anybodies guess.
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The lab puts a load on the boiler using plate exchangers, temp gauges and flow meters, the first test they run allows you to ready the unit then a full throttle burn test is run, this then gives you the max BTU for the unit.
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Heatmaster C series are tested with coal (they are a coal unit) and were putting more than their max rating. But then quality of coal does vary.
Yes Slim, the question was: how is it tested? You can get a vary good test with a flow meter, flat plates and temp gauges, that's how it's done. The variable is fuel: moisture, and Quality etc.
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Schoppy, here is the G400 test from the lab. http://www.heatmasterss.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/101237993MID-002.2-G400-EPA-report.pdf
You can read about how they tested etc. Always a full firebox, just put different BTU loads on the boiler with heat exchanger for the entire duration of the test and see how long the boiler can last putting that output out.
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Also need to assume on the G series that when the tests were done the damper was at 100%.
Thru careful loading of mine, I can get it to run at 60% for 5-6 hours at a time with the water hanging around 176-178, fill the firebox and it will cycle on and off.
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Thanks guys, Honda the report was helpful and answered my main question of how much wood they were talking about for the ratings. 250 lbs. of red oak on average for each test run at about 20 to 23 percent moisture content. Just for grins and giggles I am going to weigh out 250 lbs. of my red oak to see how big of a pile it is.
I think they may have a typo on one of the tests as the numbers on test 4 show a BTU output of 2.47 times that of the other tests.
I can't really tell if the air damper was set at a specific setting or (more likely) the loads were regulated a specific rates. Either way, mlappin you are right that the G400 is a big unit.
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Wouldn't the outside air temp effect these tests? If it's 50 outside my stove might only run 5 minutes. If it's zero then I may run 20-30 minutes. The very cold air getting sucked into the firebox to burn the fire cools the box down where the stove has to burn a lot longer. What's the intake air temp during these tests? If there was a way to have ducted mild temp atleast air going in the intake of your stove I assume that would make a stove many times more efficient. Now where to get the warm air is a good question. Stealing from your home is a bad idea for obvious reasons. Running pipe deep into the earth in a U shape for intake air prolly would work but the expense may be great. Anyone got any great ideas??
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The G series uses preheated combustion air so outside temperatures aren’t as much a concern. It flows up from the bottom, across the back up to the duct along the water jacket, to the front, then thru the damper.
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That blower sucks that air in pretty fast. If it's 0 or -10 outside that air isn't warm coming in.
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That blower sucks that air in pretty fast. If it's 0 or -10 outside that air isn't warm coming in.
Yeah, but you have the entire back of a G to heat the air with.
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Can't believe that matter if there was twenty foot. Air doesn't absorb heat like water. And the speed of the constant air flow is consistently cooling the stove down if 0 degree air is coming in. And compared to 50 degree air there has to be a major different
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Well maybe we will see this winter, supposed to be another booger like 2012-13.
Maybe I can find a place to place a pyrometer without actually having to open the front cover.
And while air doesn’t absorb heat like water, it’s also easier to heat than water since it can’t absorb as much.
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Doesn't your stove run a lot longer to get back up to temp when it's 0 compared to 45-50? Even with no load(no furnace running, plate exchanger etc)
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Doesn't your stove run a lot longer to get back up to temp when it's 0 compared to 45-50? Even with no load(no furnace running, plate exchanger etc)
Can’t say I’ve never had it under no load. I have 450 gallons of thermal storage in the shop, even if the house is calling for none, the shop will always pull some heat out of the G400 unless of course all the shop water is also 180 which only happens if I’m running the waste oil boiler as well which is where I get the extra 450 gallons.
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O well I only heat a 50 gallon hot water tank, I use a sidearm, which constantly absorbs a little heat but very little when I'm not using hot water. My stove runs 3 times longer to run its cycle under no load when it's 0 compared to 50 :bag:
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I’m running the waste oil boiler water and G400 water thru a 70 FPHX, I have a hundred thousand BTU air handler in one corner and a 50,000 heater under the welding supply fridge right next to the welding bench and another 50,000 under the bolt bin pointing at the lathe, bridgeport and drill presses. I have added a differential controller so the only time the water moves between the waste oil and FPHX is when the G400 water is hotter then the waste oil water, was getting way too long a idle times when waiting for 700 gallons of water to cool off, so technically sometimes the G400 isn’t under very much load at all if the shop water is warmer than the G400 water and nothing is calling for heat in the house.
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Are you saying that you have a no load situation for 20 to 30 min when it is 0 deg. outside? My indoor furnace would cycle several times in that length of time. The only way I could see that much of a difference in a no load burn cycle is if there is a long time in the cycle where there is no ignition.Otherwise there should not be much difference.I'm burning a C375 and I thought it takes less time to reach temp because the stove cycles more often and coal bed is hotter from the former cycle and ignite quicker. Also cold air holds more oxygen, like a intercooler on a diesel engine, and packs more punch than hot air if you get ignition.But maybe I'm just dumb and can't see through this but I think you have some heat load somewhere.
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It’s possible, especially after 9pm, the wife and I both like a cool house at night, so the thermostat sets itself from 72 to 67 at 9pm, would also depend on what the 450 gallons of water in the shop is doing.
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I was thinking of Jared with a C model. Seems to me that stove should be up to temp a lot quicker than 20- 30 min with no load whatever temp outside. I've timed C units coming up to temp from dead cold to set point in winter at 35 min. with the right fuel.
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I have a 12 degree loop set on my stove. 168-180. When it's 40-50 m stove only kicks on every 2 hrs usually, Maybe 30-45 minute cycles when it's really cold. And maybe it doesn't run 20-25 minutes with no load but it does seem to run longer. Like I say I have my stove to kick on at 168. When it hits 168 and the blower kicks on, the stove temp will go down 166 maybe 165 before it starts going back up when the temp is 25-35 degrees out. So then it takes longer to get up to 180. Ofcourse I burn a lot of pine until it get 10 or below, then I'll burn straight hardwood.
Also I'm not sure if cool air would make a fire burn better in a stove. Its not being compressed in a engine. All I know is the colder the air the cooler it makes my stove temp and see a the longer it takes my stove to reignite into a good burning fire and longer it takes to to shut off.
If it's 45 out and I have my usual mixer or pine it'll only take 4-5 minutes to go from 168-180. And my stove temp doesn't drop below 168 when it starts