Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: kybaseball on October 04, 2016, 02:46:34 PM
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I have a 2 story house with 2 different heating units. I use the wood boiler to heat my downstairs. Getting a little older and would like to add the upstairs. Need some ideals on how to hook it all up. Like do I need to run another pump since it will be going upstairs? Can i tie into the line that is there and have the pump come on as needed to pull the water up? any and all help would be wonderful
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We need more information about your existing heating systems what type hot air, hot water baseboard ex and how big of an area you trying to heat
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I have a Heatmaster 10000E. I am heating about 3500 sq feet now and want to add 1500sq feet. I will be putting and heat exchanger in my air handler to get the heat water to air i think it is called. Somebody told me to T off the line and add the pump which would pump the water up stairs. Or do I just add to the line and let the pump do the work.
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We need to know if there is enough BTUs available in the existing loop. If you already have a large temp drop on the return then there probably isn't. You may need to run another set of lines or replace them with larger lines. How long is the entire existing loop round trip and what all is in it? What size pump are you using?
How high above the OWB would you be running the new piping?
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We need to know if there is enough BTUs available in the existing loop. If you already have a large temp drop on the return then there probably isn't. You may need to run another set of lines or replace them with larger lines. How long is the entire existing loop round trip and what all is in it? What size pump are you using?
How high above the OWB would you be running the new piping?
:post:
You may run into air issues trying to pump the water too high above the boiler.
I ran lines in the shop along the rafter stringers to get from one side to the other and haven’t issues yet.
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Sorry got busy. Here what i have. Stove is a 10000E Heatmaster, Pump is Grundfos 26-99, Line is wrapped 5 layers total loop is 250 feet, 20 plate heat exchanger for water, 2 exchanger for 2 air handlers. The upstairs would be 25 foot up and like 20 to air handler so 90 more feet total.
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We need to know if there is enough BTUs available in the existing loop. If you already have a large temp drop on the return then there probably isn't. You may need to run another set of lines or replace them with larger lines. How long is the entire existing loop round trip and what all is in it? What size pump are you using?
How high above the OWB would you be running the new piping?
Great point! I ran into this a friends house a few years ago. His line ran from the hotwater heater to the downstairs furnace to the upstairs furnace before finally making it back to the stove. Way to big of a temp drop by the time it got returned.
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Sorry got busy. Here what i have. Stove is a 10000E Heatmaster, Pump is Grundfos 26-99, Line is wrapped 5 layers total loop is 250 feet, 20 plate heat exchanger for water, 2 exchanger for 2 air handlers. The upstairs would be 25 foot up and like 20 to air handler so 90 more feet total.
You definitely don't want to put it in series with what you already have. I would put a plate heat exchanger in the main loop and pressurize the upstairs part. If you get too much drop on the main loop with the extra heat load, you may need to run another set of lines or replace the existing with larger pipe.
I would use a fairly large heat exchanger to keep restriction to a minimum. Maybe replace the existing 20 plate with a 30 plate too.
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Thing is I don't have heat up stairs now and i am trying to see if the one pump will push that up stairs or would i be better off adding another pump in the line. The one pump is on the back of my stove. Was told to add another pump in the basement to push water up. Trying to see if that is correct way to do it. Thanks for the help my installer went out of business and left to defend for my self.
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What is the height of the highest point in the system (upstairs) compared to the top of the water in the boiler?
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25 feet
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25 feet
Yah, my stringers are 13 foot high in the shop, but my waste oil boiler is tall, so maybe water is being pump up 9 foot above water level, 25 foot is entirely a different thing.
Might be best to follow RSI’s recommendation and set your upstairs up as a closed pressurized loop.
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I don't know what he means about pressurized?
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I’m sure RSI can explain it much better than me.
But your stove you have now is a open system, no matter how hot it gets it has zero pressure on the water jacket, think of your car radiator with the cap off.
A closed system is exactly that, it has some pressure in the system even cold and more when hot, think of your car radiator with the cap on and the car at normal operating temp.
A closed system once you get the air bled out of it, it will tend to stay bled out, while with a open system every little bubble or bit of entrapped air will eventually find its way to the highest point in your system and will eventually cause an air lock if you can get it bled in the first place.
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Heck even I got that Marty, great explanation without getting technical!
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Thanks for the info. I do understand that.
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So pretty much i can't heat my up stairs cause the water will push out the top of the stove?
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No, you may be able to heat the upstairs without pressurizing the upstairs loop but will probably have a lot of issues with air in it. If you put it in series with all the other heat exchangers you might loose heat on your entire system if you get an air lock.
The best way to do it is use a plate heat exchanger expansion tank and pump for just the upstairs. Use a plate that is plenty large to not add too much additional restriction in your main loop.
Also like I mentioned before, you may need to replace the existing plate heat exchanger with a larger one to reduce the head pressure on the main loop that will be increased from the added heat exchanger.
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Kybaseball, how is the upstairs heated now? Forced air, radiant or baseboards?
It might be possible, I may have an ideal to try before we make it anymore difficult than required, won’t take much to do and if it doesn’t work you’ll already have some parts for your closed loop.
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Forced air
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You could try a secondary loop, T into your existing line, attach a pump to it and run your loop upstairs, T the return in after your t for the pump. Install a manual air vent at the HX and see what happens, if it doesn’t work you already have a pump, HX and loop in place, just need another FPHX and a few components to make your closed loop system. I’d also add a ball valve at the t on the return, once you get it bled then you can shut the return T, then the isolation valves at the pump, then turn it off, won’t loose all your water then from the loop going upstairs. Start in opposite order, start the pump for the OWB, turn the secondary pump on, open the isolation valves the return valve.
May work, may not, but like I said, if not, your better than half way to having a closed loop.
T in like this:
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/12764786_10206740900895530_6982441084241911706_o.jpg)
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Actually this is a better picture, just wire your pump to run all the time.
(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t167/Marty_Lappin/HeatmasterSS/Screen%20Shot%202016-02-25%20at%2011.07.04%20PM_zpsatxwjmcs.png)
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Thats kind of what i was thinking about. Putting the pump on the line to draw from on a as needed thing. Next problem i am having is how to get the pump to run as needed?
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Thats kind of what i was thinking about. Putting the pump on the line to draw from on a as needed thing. Next problem i am having is how to get the pump to run as needed?
I don’t think I’d go that route, once it shuts off water is going to drain out of the lines to about the level of water in the boiler and you could have air issues again, get a three speed and run it just fast enough for the job if electric consumption is a concern.
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We do this on a regular basis.The water in the top unit will not run down unless it can get air.We put a ball valve between the two tees. closing the ball valve will allow the primary pump on the stove to help bleed the upstairs unit. Put a small low head pump to push the top air handler.Once it is bled out there is as much water pulling down as up and head is 0 except for line friction. If you never have a leak up top your water will drain down and your pump will not have enough head to dump your water upstairs. you will also need a check valve in your return, we like to put them just before the second tee, so you don't get ghost flow. We put in a double throw double pole relay in the air handler to with a second t-stat to bring in the fan and the pump together. You got a good stove, we got to make it work.
One other thing we do, use 3/4 pex going upstairs- it's easier to bled out and it gets enough flow to heat on that short a run.
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After discussing your situation with you, I see I was reading your total pipe length wrong. A 26 99 pump is strong and putting that loop direct upstairs will be worth a try. It will be simple and you can always go back to a secondary pump if needed. Keep it 1" all the way and get the air bled out. It may not be high tech but who cares if it works.
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After discussing your situation with you, I see I was reading your total pipe length wrong. A 26 99 pump is strong and putting that loop direct upstairs will be worth a try. It will be simple and you can always go back to a secondary pump if needed. Keep it 1" all the way and get the air bled out. It may not be high tech but who cares if it works.
That's right nothing high tech here just trying to save a dollar. Thanks for the help and the questions that i asked and i will update how it turned out asap.
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Heck even I got that Marty, great explanation without getting technical!
X2 on that one
Here is my 2 cents worth with some explanation of why. I heat my house with base board hot water from a propane boiler, Like Marty said this is a pressurized system. It has three zones and three circulator pumps, one is for indirect heated hot water and the other two are separate heat zones, one for the first floor and one for the second. My OWB is 10 feet down hill below my walkout basement and is 50 feet away. It has a single circulating pump and the system has a thermostat ( like a car) that will open above 150*, this is so that below 150* the water goes in a loop back to the OWB so that the boiler temp comes up quicker. Once the thermostat opens it circulates into my existing boiler loop. So I have one heck of a height to circulate the water, the 10 feet up to the basement and then one floor up to the 1st and another one to the second. So roughly40 feet from the OWB to the second floor. I tried to run my whole system With the OWB pump with no pressure but I couldn't do it. If The OWB went out I had air in the system and it went right up to the 2nd floor. I had to put in a 50 plate heat exchanger in the basement just before my house system. So now the OWB is an open loop no pressure and the house can run a separate pressurized system. .
Now if you run a heat exchanger and a pump from your main OWB line to bring heat to the second floor You just eliminated any circulation problems and you now you could run a base board heating zone