Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: coolidge on January 30, 2017, 05:51:28 PM

Title: Rip off
Post by: coolidge on January 30, 2017, 05:51:28 PM
Guess they stick it too you if you only use 150 gallons a year.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: aarmga on January 30, 2017, 08:50:01 PM
Wow I'd say so!!  90 cents last time I purchased.  I also own my own tank.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: Bud Man on January 30, 2017, 09:42:23 PM
Don't pay that! Shop around and bust them for price gouging. 82 cents here in the midwest. My supplier told me they are giving it away in Canada but you gotta get it here! Tell 'em to come get it! That will piss them off!
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: coolidge on January 31, 2017, 03:39:17 AM
My plan was to get my own tank last summer, that didn't happen. So I will be moving it to the top of my list this summer.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: Jon_E on January 31, 2017, 05:15:16 AM
I recognize that bill format.  Suburban Propane strikes again.   :bash:

After ten years I'd had enough of being ripped off by them and switched to Irving. 

Best advice is to find a small local supplier with a couple of trucks and a service tech, and sign up with them.  Buy your own tank too.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: BIG AL on January 31, 2017, 06:58:41 AM
wow I though they were wacking me at 2.69. They were charging us around 4.00 when we used it only for cooking. I was going to tell them shove it , but then I put a small space heated in the back room that we use once in a while until I get water lines back there and they dropped my price over a dollar when I told them I was using it for heat too. We probably don't use 80 gal a year. At least they regulate heating oil prices.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: kommandokenny on January 31, 2017, 08:19:16 AM
You guys are spoiled!!
 try coming to ontario and consuming a little hydro to watch tv and run a pump or two .
200 a month!!!!!!!!!!!
Glad I'm not paying elec. to heat the water for 8 months.

Don't dare to run the central air in the summer here,,,,need another mortgage
They will be shutting down hockey and curling rinks cause they can't afford to keep the lights on.
It'll give you guys a chance to catch up to our hockey programs though.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: willieG on February 01, 2017, 04:47:19 PM
my last bill 369.56 for 1,560.6012 KWH = 23.7 cents per KWH....they are choking us here in ontario
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: coolidge on February 01, 2017, 05:58:32 PM
Why so high?
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: kommandokenny on February 01, 2017, 06:50:03 PM
Mismanagement,, bad decisions by Provincial politicians,,, and the general cost of going over a million miles of swamp, rock, lakes, rivers and bush.
Things are really spread out here.
Theres gonna be a change of Gov. here I'm sure
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: kommandokenny on February 01, 2017, 07:06:22 PM
my last bill 369.56 for 1,560.6012 KWH = 23.7 cents per KWH....they are choking us here in ontario

Are u not on the peak off peak schedule Bill??[23]

Oh you factored in the taxes and delivery charges ,,,got it

This is for 2 people,, fridge,,,stove,, boiler pump,, tv,small freezer,,air exchanger fan forced furnace,, and never leave a light on!!!!!!!


(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/P2010046.jpg)


Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: Revx1000 on February 01, 2017, 07:53:16 PM
Alberta has now put carbon tax on every thing  as of January 1 st  , including heating your ,here one example
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: willieG on February 01, 2017, 08:24:57 PM
yes Kenny, I just take the total, taxes and all, divide the total by the KWH and that is the "real" cost of the electricity


Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: mlappin on February 01, 2017, 10:19:49 PM
Damn, that’s some expensive electric.

My entire single phase bill is roughly half that. I’m paying $294/month on a budget plan, basically they average a years use and thats what you pay a month.

Have two cow waters with 1000 watt heaters in em, maybe up to 4 vehicles with 750 to 1500 watt block heaters plugged in all winter, then of course the shop lights are 120v single phase, any power tools, a buzz box, two electric fence chargers and the house. Central A/C runs from pretty much from the end of May to the middle or end of September because of the wife’s congenital heart problems and the COPD that came with it.

Most of the time the farm 3 phase is the minimum as in the off season the most that runs is a 5hp compressor, a 300 amp wire welder, a plasma cutter and a bridgeport and lathe, during harvest the 3 phase might cost upwards of $2000/month. One 20hp motor on the pneumatic grain mover, a 15hp motor on the leg, a 10hp motor on the pit auger, numerous 7 1/2hp motors, a handful of 5hop motors and a metric buttload of 3, 2 and 1hp motors scattered about. Also have several 10-15hp aeration fans and six 5hp aeration fans, the grain dryer alone will pull another 100 amps.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: RSI on February 01, 2017, 10:40:47 PM
yes Kenny, I just take the total, taxes and all, divide the total by the KWH and that is the "real" cost of the electricity
That does not work if you are trying to calculate what a particular appliance costs to run. Say you have something using 200 watts 24/7. If you figure that way you would say it cost about $34 per month. If you turn off the device you will not save $34. It will just make your per KWH rate calculation higher for what you did use.

Or another way to look at it, say you turned off everything and ended up only using 1 KWH for the month. Would you say it was correct to use the total bill amount and claim the power rate was that per KWH?
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: schoppy on February 01, 2017, 11:07:11 PM
Your price per kilowatt isn't that bad but your delivery charge is high. I have a rural coop serving my electric and I am on peak/off peak rates with my peak at 25.1 cents / KWH and 6.4 cents/KWH off peak. My facility charge, your delivery charge, runs about $1.00 per day where yours looks like it is over $3.00 per day. My peak rates October through May are only 5-8 pm Monday through Friday and 1-8 pm Monday through Friday the rest of the year. I have everything I can on timers so they don't run during peak hours along with set back T-stats.

The electric rates for the utility I work for run 10.5 to 13 cents per KWH depending on the plan. Our facility charge just took a jump from about $8 per month to about $15 per month. The facility or delivery charges are supposed to represent the cost to get power to the customers and the farther customers are spread out the higher the charge.   
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: kommandokenny on February 02, 2017, 05:52:37 PM
Your price per kilowatt isn't that bad but your delivery charge is high. I have a rural coop serving my electric and I am on peak/off peak rates with my peak at 25.1 cents / KWH and 6.4 cents/KWH off peak. My facility charge, your delivery charge, runs about $1.00 per day where yours looks like it is over $3.00 per day. My peak rates October through May are only 5-8 pm Monday through Friday and 1-8 pm Monday through Friday the rest of the year. I have everything I can on timers so they don't run during peak hours along with set back T-stats.

The electric rates for the utility I work for run 10.5 to 13 cents per KWH depending on the plan. Our facility charge just took a jump from about $8 per month to about $15 per month. The facility or delivery charges are supposed to represent the cost to get power to the customers and the farther customers are spread out the higher the charge.

http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=7501.0


Upper new york state gets it's Hydro from ontario,, yet the customers in new york, pay on average, ,1/2 of what we here in ontario pay...........can we borrow trump for a few weeks???????(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/kommandokenny/GreenGuy_1.gif)

Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: willieG on February 02, 2017, 08:51:32 PM
yes Kenny, I just take the total, taxes and all, divide the total by the KWH and that is the "real" cost of the electricity
That does not work if you are trying to calculate what a particular appliance costs to run. Say you have something using 200 watts 24/7. If you figure that way you would say it cost about $34 per month. If you turn off the device you will not save $34. It will just make your per KWH rate calculation higher for what you did use.

Or another way to look at it, say you turned off everything and ended up only using 1 KWH for the month. Would you say it was correct to use the total bill amount and claim the power rate was that per KWH?
the whole bill is a sham  your actual cost per kwh is about 5 cents more than they show. there are three costs in the delivery rate ...Volume charge of 3.74 cents per kwh, .44 cents per kwh for a "connection charge and .62 cents per kwh for something dreamed up as a Network charge, also on the bill komando posted you will see at the bottom they show a savings as they have removed the debt retirement charge...they did not remove it they just put it in the delivery charge  but tell you each month how nice they are since they removed it. I used 168 dollars in electricity  but my bill total was 369, If I sent in only a check for 168 dollars I bet I would have no electricity in a month or a collection agency at my door

if you paid 1 dollar a gallon for gas and got 20 mile to the gallon would you say it costs 1 dollar to drive 20 miles or would you say (after taking off the government road tax, any state tax and any other charges that amounted to 50 cents that you now can drive that 20 miles for 50 cents? I know what you are saying but my total cost for electricity is what it is no matter how you look at it and yes I have a property where I use no electricity for months at a time (very little) I have seen a bill  for about 60 dollars for 20 kwh  so tht month it averages out to 3 dollars per kwh to have that meter at the pole (again not the cost of the kwh in actual cost but that is what I had to pay the company that sells it to me we pay dearly for the convenience and there are no other providers.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: RSI on February 02, 2017, 09:01:39 PM
They like to do the large fixed fees and lower per kwh charges to discourage solar panel use. That way if you are connected to the grid and make as much power as you use, they still get half their money and don't have to supply any power.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: aarmga on February 02, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
I'm glad alliant energy doesn't do things this way.  13 dollars meter fee and 5 dollar distribution fee no
Matter what gets used.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: schoppy on February 02, 2017, 11:51:38 PM
No one likes the service or fixed charges but would any of us like to pay the cost of the poles, lines, transformers and all the rest of the equipment needed to get power to our homes by ourselves? I have known a couple of people that thought they could generate their own power cheaper than buying from a utility. Within 2 months they were back on the grid because it was way too costly generating power themselves.

WillieG you mentioned the cost of gas to drive 20 miles. You make a good analogy, think of the gas as the electricity and your car as the distribution system of the utility. The cost of the gas to drive your car 20 miles is a small part of the total cost. The car itself, insurance, tires, maintenance, interest on the car loan the list goes on and on is the actual cost to drive your car 20 miles.

I have a 20 KW standby generator but I know I can't run it cheaper than buying my power from the Co-op.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: willieG on February 03, 2017, 05:21:16 PM
how can there be such a spread in prices
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: kommandokenny on February 04, 2017, 07:04:40 AM
No one likes the service or fixed charges but would any of us like to pay the cost of the poles, lines, transformers and all the rest of the equipment needed to get power to our homes by ourselves? I have known a couple of people that thought they could generate their own power cheaper than buying from a utility. Within 2 months they were back on the grid because it was way too costly generating power themselves.

WillieG you mentioned the cost of gas to drive 20 miles. You make a good analogy, think of the gas as the electricity and your car as the distribution system of the utility. The cost of the gas to drive your car 20 miles is a small part of the total cost. The car itself, insurance, tires, maintenance, interest on the car loan the list goes on and on is the actual cost to drive your car 20 miles.

I have a 20 KW standby generator but I know I can't run it cheaper than buying my power from the Co-op.

In ontario it's just too high no matter what way u spin it.
The gov made some huge mistakes,, eg: cancelling gas plant in Mississauga cost billions.
Guess who pays.........

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/a-timeline-of-the-ontario-gas-plants-scandal-that-led-to-criminal-charges-against-former-premier-mcguintys-staff
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: kommandokenny on February 04, 2017, 07:08:46 AM
how can there be such a spread in prices

Quebec has same landscape ie: huge,, lottsa rock,, and water, spread out over millions of miles.
Yet they pay 1/2 of what we here in Ontario pay.
MISSMANAGEMENT = RIP OFF

Oh ya sorry for highjacking the original post,,Cooler
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: atvalaska on February 07, 2017, 03:04:37 PM
That's a steal in these parts...
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: patvetzal on February 10, 2017, 05:26:10 PM
Our hydro bill for December was $707, highest yet. That is heating with a lake loop geothermal. The yearly heating costs for which have varied between $414 and $600 during the past few years.
Since getting the P&M tied in the geothermal has not run and our last hydro bill was $521. Dom water is now heated via P&M as well...
I take my total hydro bill as my hydro cost and it works out to $.22/kwh
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: duramax on February 11, 2017, 10:36:30 AM
My plan was to get my own tank last summer, that didn't happen. So I will be moving it to the top of my list this summer.
[/quote

I had your problem for years. We always paid a penalty for not using enough propane. Now we own a 500 gallon tank. When I called for our 1st fill they gave me a high price. I told the lady that was way to high given state average was $1.50 cheaper. She calls me back and tells me she had to talk to the manager, blah blah blah and they could " honor" the state average price, I told her that that they better or I can get a new propane co. Now with a wood boiler I have not filled it up  in a year and a half.  I was thinking of calling my State rep to find out how many signatures are needed to start a bill to regulate the propane sellers. I paid for the two tanks I rented a bunch of times over.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: mlappin on February 12, 2017, 11:05:54 AM
No one likes the service or fixed charges but would any of us like to pay the cost of the poles, lines, transformers and all the rest of the equipment needed to get power to our homes by ourselves? I have known a couple of people that thought they could generate their own power cheaper than buying from a utility. Within 2 months they were back on the grid because it was way too costly generating power themselves.



Way way back in the day my great grandfather just knew electricity had to be a great labor saver on any farm, especially a dairy. When they finally ran lines up what is now US 31 him and a neighbor formed their own electric co-op and ran wires down 1st road to each of their farms, of course they sold electric to any one who was willing to pay for their share of the hookup.
Title: Re: Rip off
Post by: patvetzal on February 19, 2017, 10:06:11 AM
Here in Ontario we used to say "live better electrically" as we had Niagara Falls and then a few Nuke plants. Now I pay $.22/kwh, the highest in north America.
It is still cheaper to run our geothermal than pay $60/face cord for dry wood though. Lucky I live in 80 acres of hardwood....and only bought 3 face last month because the woodsheds were getting low. Dug logs out of the snow and now have two bush cord of not very dry maple split and piled beside the furnace...