Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: coolidge on April 12, 2017, 12:28:44 PM
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Had my thermal imaging camera out today.
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thats awesome! :thumbup:
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No sheet, I was going to comment, I think I'll sit back
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Lit up the radiant floor today, looks like some loops might not be flowing.
Had closed cell foam on my logstor that is above ground, decided to break some of just for s:/to and giggles.
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Soooooo, talk to us, what are the temp readings, how about bringing that down here and we can compare the HeatMaster G-400 that I'm using to the Polar G-2 that I'm test running at the shop, I like a good experiment don't you?
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Anything thats warm no matter how well insulated will show up in thermal images if the background is cold. Take a shot of a house in the dead of winter, thats real interesting, the windows light up like super nova’s.
With all the tech available now, best defense against heat seeking missiles is still to deploy something hotter yet as a decoy.
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Actually I’m curious as to what the camera cost, would be a valuable tool while remodeling this old house to see if I missed a spot when insulting. Heating it is easy enough, cooling it hurts.
Right now I only have a little blow in doe the attics, still have peg and post up there. Next room we remodel shares a wall with the upstairs, pull romex up that one to the attic then from there to each bedroom.
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I just think it would be a great comparison to put the HM with no cabinet up against the Polar with the cabinet! Perhaps with some good math, surface area measurements and temp differences we could come up with some actual BTU losses that the corporate offices could use to determine where they want to go with the next design.
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Yah, that would be interesting.
Personally, and of course apples to oranges but both my G series kept snow on the roof a lot longer than some others I’ve seen including my homemade.
I’ve fed my friends Heatmor a few times when he took the kids on a vacation, it seemed to hold snow on the roof for quite awhile as well.
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I know that as a sales tool when I'm running a boiler at a show and see a potential customer come up to the boiler and touch the outside of the loading door, they typically comment on the heat loss.
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Actually back when I was contemplating building a gasser I was going to place it in a cabinet. The mild steel CB knockoff I built before never leaked a single drop of water, however the door flange and exhaust did rot out from condensation, figured if I placed the new one in a cabinet it would cut down on temperature extremes and therefore condensation. I have another still out there that my cousin is still using, made a few design changes and it still seems to be holding up pretty well, is about 15-16 years old now I think.
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I think that as well is a big concern in the industry so I would vote that the external door is a big plus in design
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Well, Coolidge just called, I have the Polar running and we will be putting it up against the test with the HeatMaster that has been heating my place all winter, anybody want to place any friendly wagers on which unit is the more efficient? We will be checking outer skin and stack temps!
Marty could you Please move this topic to a new thread so it will be easier for folks to find.
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Could just change the topic name to “Thermal imaging, Polar versus Heatmaster.”
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Mlappin I got one for my stepson that attaches to a smart phone for 250 bucks it works awesome from thermal.com
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Works for me!
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The one I am using is the smartphone one, $250
http://www.flir.com/flirone/android/
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Well Coolidge just left, he EMailed me a bunch of pics that tell an awful lot, I will go over them and post the pertinent ones but my preliminary results are that a good cabinet can make a big difference in heat loss.
For your enjoyment here are some to start. Keep in mind that both boilers are burning the same green oak, both have a water to air heat exchanger operating with roughly the same load, the Polar is running at 185 with a maximum stack temp of 280 degrees and the HeatMaster is running at its max temp of 180 with a max stack temp of 380 degrees. Oops, crap I think I have to put thepics in my files before I can post them!
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The door jam is to be expected.
Two pics of my hole I chiseled through my closed cell foam that is around my Pipe.
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I just dug out mine and took a pic of the G100. This is from a $200 Seek Thermal camera. I let the fire go out and cleaned some ashes out earlier today so it has been running continuous for quite a while. I am guessing it doesn't get as hot from normal cycling.
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Having a cabinet around the boiler will make it look a lot better on a thermal imager because it can dissipate the heat and spread it more evenly. The only real way to compare them would be to put inside another enclosure and compare temp rise or the air around each.
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Having a cabinet around the boiler will make it look a lot better on a thermal imager because it can dissipate the heat and spread it more evenly. The only real way to compare them would be to put inside another enclosure and compare temp rise or the air around each.
:post:
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Slim are you selling Polar furnaces now? Do they use stainless steel or something else? I had looked at these about the same time I looked at Heatmaster, curious how similar they are in design.
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Yes I am Schoppy, I'm having trouble loading the pics that Coolidge shot for me but I'm not so sure of your explanation RSI, we finally figured out how to get his camera to pinpoint temps, all around the doors on both units were quite high, mid 120 to as high as 136 but when the Polar outer door was closed, it showed some leakage at the very top edge at 95.4 degrees while the remainder of the door showed 67.9.
Let's keep in mind that this opening in the top of the Polar is about 3/4 inch wide by about 30 inches in length while the HeatMaster is about 4 inches wide and almost completely surrounding the entire loading door, I don't think we need to be rocket scientists to understand that wind blowing at any speed whisking away that heat during the winter months will increase wood consumption so it stands to reason that the more we can reduce the available heat loss the better.
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I bought a FLIR i5 camera when I started to fix up my house. They are awesome. Shows every thing with temp differential. Will show no insulation, every stud and windows that lost there gas between the two panes. What is really cool it will show your heat signature reflecting from the glass of picture frames. Looks like a ghost looking back at you. You wave at it and it waves back.
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I almost bought a polar furnace a few years back. I do like how they look. I wonder if they stand behind their warranty better than the last company polar made the furnaces for. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. Slim are you still selling heatmaster?
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Just so everybody understands, yes the same factory that built Wood Doctor originally now builds Polar but what most people don't know is that the factory in Sperling, Manitoba did not build all the Wood Doctor boilers, you see I know because I barely survived through it all with my home and property, Arthur Turple and Dave McCullough were the distributors and owned the name, they also dictated the build that originally was a very well built unit. When things got very busy in sales Dave and Arthur moved some of the gasser builds to the US and that is when the crap hit the market/ fan, I personally had 4 customers with leaking boilers in about 18 months from rust in the firebox. Every single one of those units were built right here in the good old USA! Last year when I did the show in Halifax NS I drove right past Arthur Turples exit in Stewiacke, believe me it was a hard temptation to fight off having a little visit with him.
At this point aarmga, no I am not, I have 5 units here in the yard that we are in dispute over and I can't seem to get a straight answer from Jake to save me, it has been over 2 months! I ask you and Please feel free to check it out, I have those units floor planned ( another topic for later ) and was selling the hell out of them this year until I was the only one having the issues with the damper plates (as per Jake) now we are moving just the Polar brand because I'm concerned that the issue still isn't resolved and that when we took on Polar and WoodMaster, Jake pulled our name and contact info from his dealer locator in retaliation, he has 2 dealers in Massachusetts who stock or invest absolutely nothing and they are on the locator but I have $50,000 invested in just stock not to mention the paint that I used color matching my equipment to his colors and I'm pulled from the locator, we found this out from 3 separate potential customers trying to find us after hearing about us or seeing us at a show, I ask you, would you want to invest more money in a company that chastises you for simply trying to make a living and rewards a non investing fly by night guy or two, this is what I do for a living!
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Man I'm just in awe over hearing that. Talk about little to no appreciation for someone who has literally devoted their life and business to a company and have them throw it all away on you. This is the exact reason I have not purchased a central boiler. That is completely crap, I don't understand why so many manufacturers do this to their dealers.
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Well the last word has not been spoken yet, at 8:30 last night I got a call again from the 78 year old man that I sold the last G 400 to that I had in stock, it has been upgraded and is still having issues with the damper every 3 days at minimum. What is important isn't how they are treating us, we can move on to another product or at the very least become a fly by nighter in this field and I can go back to driving a truck, the issue is how they are treating the customer.
I have been talking with a man from Vinalhaven island off the coast of Maine for a few months now but I will not sell him a unit until this issue is fixed once and for all, he tells me that Jake told him that he could get one from the dealer in NY or that there was a super dealer coming on board here in the Northeast to replace me, now that makes sense!
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Soooo, I finally figured out how to save / send those pics that Coolidge did for me, here are a few for your comparison, remember that the water temp on the HeatMaster is below 180 degrees because that is the factory setting and they do not want us going above 185 while the Polar is at 195 and it can go to just below whatever steam is at your location, both pics are as you would operate the boiler in the field, notice the temps from around the exposed doors and compare that to the temp from the top of the door on the Polar.
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Here are a few pics of the air damper we speak of from the 78 year old man who bought from me 2 weeks ago
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Boy.... that sure appears like the divider between top and bottom air is still not sealed completely. So far we have not had a single call back or complaint since the divider was sealed.
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Food for thought on the 185 max setting on the heatmaster....
When I called to ask them why I coukdnt boost the over heat cut out above 190 they told me it had nothing to do with the logo controller, they control the 190 with a snap disc. So they said this is where it starts to get gray. They told me that of course I could put in a higher snap disc BUT the unit is UL listed for indoor use and part of the UL testing included that the boiler would pop off at 190. So if I were to modify that I would be modding the boiler and it would lose its certification. I ended up leaving it alone but they said they couldn't do anything to stop me from putting a different snap disc in it and they personally weren't concerned about the boiler running at higher temps.
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Yup I would agree BUT it was done exactly as described in the HeatMasterss upgrade kit, I'm sure you aren't saying that I might send out a unit on purpose that wasn't upgraded Eldon? The airbox should be here this weekend for me to cut open and examine closely, I'll be happy to post pics if you like, I do think we are on the right path but moving pretty darn slow! Hmm that's weird on the UL Honda, it seems funny that all the steel boilers that I have ever dealt with have had UL and some for indoor use and they can be run at higher temps? Perhaps they should put that addendum in the manual so that we could be sure it wouldn't effect the warranty?
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Eldon, remember something, I didn't build it, if you would like then you can pass a message on to your folks up there that if they are ready to fix the issue instead of just talking about it then I'll be ready to work with them but I'm tired of excuses and misleading information
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I wasn't insinuating anything, just trying to troubleshoot and help a customer. I'm just relating what worked for us.
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Well then if we are speaking then I will say that the retro does seem to work better on the 200 than it does on the 400, this is why I want to cut it open this weekend, I would have thought they would have already done that though because I already sent back 1-200 and 1-400 when I first noticed the issue but haven't heard a word since!
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I think it is one of those issues that actually needing to pump temps above 185 is few and far between and it is easier to just not have a dialogue about it in the manual stating something to the effect " if your system needs hotter than temps than the factory components allow based on our UL testing specs than the disc can be replaced with a higher temp not to exceed ???? But the owner shall be aware that the unit will no longer be UL certified and shall not be installed indoors as well as clearance to combustibles also changes to blah blah blah. I think that som people think they need higher temps coming out of their forced hot air systems but in reality the system is actually much more comfortable with register temps near the 110s so you don't get those hot and cold spikes. They don't understand that even though they run 110 register temp for 10 mins that is the same btus delivered as running 130 degrees for 7 mins.
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Yuo are right Honda however we have run into instances where an old home or historic building requires over 180 degree water temps to deliver the needed BTUs with the available baseboard and none can be added so on the low side at 160 there is a real issue
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Yes i am sure that you have run into some instances where they are running tight differentials on the old systems because of poor design. I would think though that going by a case by case basis with the factory with these systems and doing some sort of written addendum with the factory for each case could protect both parties involved and keep everyone happy.
On another note I know that most people don't want to spend $10k plus for a boiler and need to do more work but that is exactly what they need to invest in. Whether or not that is putting in low temp baseboard which can operate the same btu output is traditional baseboard but down to temps as low as the 130s or it is some simple air sealing techniques to tighten the structure up or adding insulation. You could expand into another market slim with doing energy audits for homes. Most of those guys just have some simple equipment like a blower door for air loss calcs and a thermal imager.
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Thanks Honda, I'm actually looking into that.
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I figured it had something to do both with UL specs as tested and the snap disc.
I did figure at first I wanted to bump the tempature up to at least 185 when I installed the G200 so the water would get hotter in the shop, however with the longer run times vs the G400 water is getting hotter anyways. I’m gonna leave it alone, only thing I could see on wanting hotter water is if we ever have a real winter here again and looking at least a weeks worth of polar vortex temps then it might be nice to have hotter water.
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Yuo are right Honda however we have run into instances where an old home or historic building requires over 180 degree water temps to deliver the needed BTUs with the available baseboard and none can be added so on the low side at 160 there is a real issue
If you need a higher average temp, I would look into adding a storage tank. If you double the capacity and cut the differential in half, you should end up with the same idle and burn times.
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Yes I can see what you are saying RSI but that would be a hard sell for a person to invest in an OUTDOOR wood boiler and then have to add storage when the same can be done with a higher temp boiler.
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Well I think that you will all be happy to know that again this forum seems to have sparked a fire where it needed to be sparked, I heard from the old man with the 400 that is having the damper issue, he says that he spoke with Ryan yesterday afternoon and that HeatMasterss is taking full responsibility for his air box issue and will be sending him a new air box right away, I truly am sorry that it had to come to this but my customers will always come before corporate profits, the issues that corporate and I personally have I will attempt to do offline, Ryan, I know you are watching, this is your olive branch!
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:post:
I still have full comfort that Heatmaster is a good company that is concerned about it's customers expierence with their products. Sometimes one or two people at a company sure can do some damage to the reputation of a company with some silly decisions that seem good for the bottom line or are based in emotion but not based in good business practice. Companies that produce a product have a difficult time on the internet whenever they have a product issue, for the most part people don't come online and put forth effort to say how good of a product that xyz company builds but when they have a problem they come online and bad mouth the company about how bad their products are and how they don't stand behind their products.
At the end of the day I don't run a business but it has always seemed to me that it is cheap for a company in the long run to just make it right for the customer. That includes good communication with the customer and simply calling them back, showing the customer that the company really does care about the problem they are having.
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This is the Heatmaster that I have always known. Costumer calls with a problem and Heatmaster listens and gets it done. Sometimes it takes a little time to figure it out, but they try. I've been asked by them on stoves over a thousand miles from me Why does this stove do this or that? They try to get an answer and get it fixed.
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That is what I have always heard.
Richard works hard in a difficult industry and it is obvious that he feels frustrated by how he was treated on this issue and a bunch of behind the scenes business related issues. Hopefully he and Jake can bury the hatchet and get back on track.
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This is the Heatmaster that I have always known. Costumer calls with a problem and Heatmaster listens and gets it done. Sometimes it takes a little time to figure it out, but they try. I've been asked by them on stoves over a thousand miles from me Why does this stove do this or that? They try to get an answer and get it fixed.
I would sure hope that they do, it would be in their best interest. My best friend is one of the suites at dicks sporting goods and he always tells me it's better to loose 1000 dollars with a customer and keep them happy rather than piss them off and they tell 25 people of those 25 people all spend 100 dollars elsewhere. THIS is the exact reason I didn't purchase a central boiler. I know 3 people alone that I work with that purchased a different brand stove thank central because of a few guys telling about their bad experience including my father in law. Seems to be a repetitive action taken.
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I would like the hatchet to be buried between them I spent good money on a boiler that after the fix works like a champ and now I have no dealer anywhere close if serious problems arise. The forum seems a bit meaner lately after this whole deal. I always liked to come here and learn and share ideas not view written arguments like a lawyer lol.
Richard works hard in a difficult industry and it is obvious that he feels frustrated by how he was treated on this issue and a bunch of behind the scenes business related issues. Hopefully he and Jake can bury the hatchet and get back on track.
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I agree.
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To both of you guys, I'll be here regardless, I'm simply making a statement that decisions have been made that I obviously can't control and the results are what they are.
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I understand. I'm not concerned at all about mainly customs and it's integrity to us the customers.
The direction of this forum 99% of the time that I have been involved with it has been very positive and it has always been a "run whatcha you brung" kind of place where everyone is helpful no matter what you have or decided what boiler works for you. Everyone has points in our lives when we get fed up and frustrated and end up blowing off some steam and feeling better about it in the end. Hopefully we can get back to the more positive end of the spectrum on this forum. :-*
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Ok so I as an independent contractor and investor am welcome to come on here to help potential customers, I am welcome to promote a product line, I am welcome to help solve problems in the field but when it comes to a manufacturer putting the wood to me and my customer to the point that the customer has to threaten legal action against the corporate office and by doing so it involves me and my business then those comments are considered to be negative and unwanted, burning wood has positives and negatives as well, not knowing them both can destroy the credibility of an entire industry not just a single manufacturer or their dealers. I do not think I have ever said that the product was bad, what I know I have said is the same thing that I just heard tonight from the company that made our laminate floor that is in my mother in laws room that is curling, gee I have never seen that happen before,( That comment infuriates me)I have said that doing business in that way sucks period. When we make mistakes, admit it and move on, I'm ready for that move but the only mistakes I made were # 1 believing and investing in another manufacturer and # 2 was to believe that calling out the person responsible to the folks actually are buying the product so they are informed was a good idea, you have me folks, I did believe , I'm not so sure anymore, perhaps that is where Scott 7m is at, I haven't spoken to him in a while, I think I'll call him soon to see how he transformed after his separation from HeatMasterss. One last thought if you will, I offered an olive branch a couple of days ago, would you like to place a bet on rather it has been picked up?
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I understand. I'm not concerned at all about mainly customs and it's integrity to us the customers.
The direction of this forum 99% of the time that I have been involved with it has been very positive and it has always been a "run whatcha you brung" kind of place where everyone is helpful no matter what you have or decided what boiler works for you. Everyone has points in our lives when we get fed up and frustrated and end up blowing off some steam and feeling better about it in the end. Hopefully we can get back to the more positive end of the spectrum on this forum. :-*
I absolutely agree. The negativity expressed lately has the tpotential to destroy this forum. I'm sorry if I in any way contributed to it. Let's go back to helping people. I learned a lot as a lurker and read for years before I joined. How many others are doing the same?
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Ok guys, point taken, I have been going through an awful lot in the past few weeks and months, it's not going to do any of us any good for this to go on any further, I'll be spending more time attempting to salvage my business, some of you I will be seeing soon for spring cleanings and will apologize for my anger in person and for the rest Please accept my apology here and now, for those who have harmed me personally, remember that Karma has a way of coming back to you!
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:thumbup:
I understand. I'm not concerned at all about mainly customs and it's integrity to us the customers.
The direction of this forum 99% of the time that I have been involved with it has been very positive and it has always been a "run whatcha you brung" kind of place where everyone is helpful no matter what you have or decided what boiler works for you. Everyone has points in our lives when we get fed up and frustrated and end up blowing off some steam and feeling better about it in the end. Hopefully we can get back to the more positive end of the spectrum on this forum. :-*
I absolutely agree. The negativity expressed lately has the tpotential to destroy this forum. I'm sorry if I in any way contributed to it. Let's go back to helping people. I learned a lot as a lurker and read for years before I joined. How many others are doing the same?
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I have one here with a laser temp sensor! I did my whole house with it, u get the same colors as above ...but u can pull the trigger and get a temp...it don't take much to get a color variant.