Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: UKSmoker on August 30, 2017, 11:47:41 AM
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From my research (the last hour or so only), it seems that most corrosion inhibitors sold for $40 to $80 per gallon are just sodium nitrite in water. Some of them have other chemicals or coloring but that's all. I even confirmed this against some MSDS sheets I requested.
I found that I can buy a pound of sodium nitrate for about $10 and a test kit of 1000 strips for $30. It seems pretty easy.
I'm not a chemist though so I'm hesitant to start pouring chemicals into my furnace. Hence this post.
My plan is to dilute some sodium nitrite powder into some water, pour it into the furnace with the pump running, then check my levels the next day. What do you all think?
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I don’t know enough about any additives in boiler treatments, I know sodium nitrate drives oxygen out of the water, but I also know that Heatmaster tests for PH and conductivity, whether or not sodium nitrate covers those as well I dunno.
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Some manufacturers require the homeowner to send a sample in to be tested yearly, those manufacturers have the ability to void the warranty if the sample bottles are not sent in and recorded.
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I don’t know enough about any additives in boiler treatments, I know sodium nitrate drives oxygen out of the water, but I also know that Heatmaster tests for PH and conductivity, whether or not sodium nitrate covers those as well I dunno.
I've seen straight nitrate treatment test high in electrical conductivity, the treatment we use dampens it down to prevent pitting. I don't know the ingredients tho.
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We still draw off samples and send them in for our customers when we do our service, we also keep very good records in order to protect their warranties even though we don't sell those units any more
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Thanks for he reminder guys
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It sounds like you guys are all a bunch of sticks in the mud. ;)
My furnace doesn't have a warranty so I'm not worried about that. I also found that companies put in potassium hydroxide (a very strong base) to control pH. I've added that and some pH test strips to my list of needed items.
I've collected more MSDS sheets and all of them list pretty much the same ingredients. None of them say exactly how much but I've got enough to go on.
For one gallon of water I'll add 5-10% by weight sodium nitrite (nitrite, not nitrate as I said earlier, oops). After that has time to circulate I'll use the same method to add sodium hydroxide as needed, 1-5% to a gallon of water.
Some companies have die that just makes their product pretty. It's not an accurate representation of when the chemicals lose potency.
And so you all know, a gallon of this stuff costs about $5 to make, on the high side. It's probably less. The chemical companies and the boiler companies are both making huge markups. I understand that you're maintaining your warranty and stuff but most of those are worthless anyway, especially after the initial coverage period.
Cheers.
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You are correct on the die, color doesn't tell much more than it had some treatment at one time. As far as making your own, I dunno... Hope it works for you.
Keep us updated, it's an interesting idea. Do some tests after treating and post.
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You will want to have the nitrite somewhere in the 1000-3000 ppm range.
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Do any of the MSDS sheets for sodium nitrite as a boiler water conditioner make reference to either boron, or borate. I have heard that this is used to help the passivation action and to controls bugs (bacteria) which could form as part of the reaction.
I have been curious just how nitrite works and it is an interesting process;
at a higher pH i.e. 9 to 10, rust Fe2O3 and rust compounds are converted to Fe(OH)2 (hence the reason for using NaOH for pH control)
The Fe(OH)2 reacts with nitrite (NO2) to form Fe2O4, which is a black magnetite layer protecting the metal from further rusting. Another compound formed as part of the reaction is NH4 - which is the bug food I spoke of earlier. This of course is a very simplified statement that does not attempt to list the various reactions.
Whether the commercial boiler treatments are worth the money - who knows. The technology is now pretty ancient so you should be paying just for the commodity and not for any research.
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You will want to have the nitrite somewhere in the 1000-3000 ppm range.
Honest question. How come every time I hear this it always goes up and up. I first heard more than 1500 could be bad for heat exchangers and brass. Then 2000 then 2500 now 3000. Should I just add 5000? Is there really such a thing as too much treatment?
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I have always heard 500 minimum 3000 max. Trying to keep in the middle of the range being best.
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I've heard too high can damage impellers.
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Isn't it kind of a mute subject for HeatMaster customers anyway Eldon? Doesn't HeatMaster still require a yearly sample to be sent to them in order to maintain the warranty or has that changed?
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Yes, a once per year test minimum.
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Wait! If Stainless doesn't corrode then I wonder why HeatMaster requires a test and some others don't?
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It can pit from electrolysis, and the black iron in the system needs treatment.
No material is bulletproof. Each had it's strengths and weaknesses.
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Well Thank You for that admission, the only black iron that I'm aware of is the 1 inch close 90s on the supply / return and the nipples welded into the stainless jacketI wonder why they don't bite the bullet and use brass? Would it be for cost alone? Wouldn't the dissimilar metals welded together pose an issue?
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The threaded outlets are stainless..
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Really, are you sure? Why use black iron for the 90s then and not stainless there as well, then in theory there would be no need for testing right?
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Yes, they're stainless.
Any furnace benefits from water treatment.
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How so and why require it if no damage will happen to the stainless boiler from corrosion?
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It can pit from electrolysis
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How so and why require it if no damage will happen to the stainless boiler from corrosion?
Supposedly boiler treatment helps to also keep any mineral scale from building up on the internals of the water jacket. I know the high PH is also supposed to prevent algae or other scum from growing in the water.
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So what you are both saying is that stainless is also vulnerable without proper treatment? I wonder if anyone has ever done a study on the percentage of boilers manufactured with stainless vs carbon steel that have failed prematurely, by prematurely I'm thinking a water jacket / tank failure of any type needing repair within the first 10 years of service. Perhaps a survey of the members here would be in order?
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So what you are both saying is that stainless is also vulnerable without proper treatment? I wonder if anyone has ever done a study on the percentage of boilers manufactured with stainless vs carbon steel that have failed prematurely, by prematurely I'm thinking a water jacket / tank failure of any type needing repair within the first 10 years of service. Perhaps a survey of the members here would be in order?
/sigh
Mineral scale can build up on anything. Algae also grows on anything. The wife’s latest hobby is aquariums. Glass can last for thousands of years, algae still grows on it. When my father was a young union tin knocker he installed slate roofs, when done correctly they can last for hundreds of years, algae or moss can still grow on it.
Seems Wood Doctor proves mild steel can be crap.
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Yup just like anything or any boiler, if it's cheapened up enough then it will prematurely fail, I still have my old Wood Doctor here that happens to have heated my home and shop for 14 years without a hitch, no high tech controls, mild steel construction, burned a lot of stuff that a gasser would have failed with, never been welded on since the day it was new, i was going to sell it but on second thought I think I'll keep it around as kind of an insurance policy.
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So let me get this right, algae developing inside the tank doesn't harm stainless but it does carbon steel, boiler treatment in a stainless unit isn't to stop corrosion but instead electrolysis, without sending a sample in to the factory designated test lab and positive results, the warranty can be voided? Would a ground lug and wire grounding the unit then be sufficient to keep the boiler from requiring warranty work on the tank of stainless boilers, seems to me that the added cost of boiler treatment and postage for testing should be an interesting sales pitch if what you guys are saying is true.
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mlappin, your comment about high ph preventing algae interests me. Had three cases of high temp algae growing inside water to air heat exchangers, which plugged them up. All had ph in the 8 to 10 range. Just wondering if you know how high the ph needs to go to kill the algae? We found a way to prevent it but not through PH increase.
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Now that’s interesting, maybe I had it wrong and the high nitrate is supposed to prevent algae? With a high PH though your well past the acidic end of the scale. I never ran any treatment in my old one, 5/16” firebox, 3/16” water jacket but our tap water comes out at 7.6, spent a lot of money trying to get that water down to a perfect 7.0 in the wife’s aquariums, finally gave up and just started buying fish and plants that could tolerate alkaline conditions. Life is persistent though, I’d never thought algae could grow in diesel fuel until having to deal with plugged up fuel filter after plugged up fuel filter one year.
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THey make additives for that!
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THey make additives for that!
Yep, all fuel delivered to the farm now has algaecide added since its all B5 anyways. All transfer tanks get filled then I give em an extra shot of algaecide then we drive around a few days before using them the first time to make sure the algaecide gets sloshed all around the inside of the tank. Newer combine uses a primary filter with the water sensor built into it, wanna say forty bucks a pop, don’t wanna replace those everyday.
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Ok, so I'm starting to get a picture here in my mind, stainless can be pitted from electrolysis but it won't corrode/ rust but no protection like a ground cable, other than boiler treatment and mandatory testing is used to protect the boiler, the nipples are stainless and the elbows are black iron, I came across this last week, it's the second time I have seen it, its supposed to be stainless and Jake told me personally that he had never seen it before, sorry you saw it a year ago and sent him a new air box just like you did this time
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This has happened twice to the same guy but none of your other customers? i would think that something environmental is going on with the air coming through?
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Nope, 2 different customers and almost a year apart, both after 1 season!
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Any idea how far apart the build dates or s/n are? I wonder if they had a bad sheet of stainless with junk in it?
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I certainly could check on it when I get home, I'm currently delivering an excavator track in southern act so it will be a while.
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I'm certainly not a metal expert by any means but doesn't that look like failure caused by impurities?
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Air boxes used to be mild steel. They are using stainless now. They were seeing some of this and that is why the switch. The new air box should solve the problem. Mild steel and moisture don't mix.
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That's an airbox from one year ago, when I sent them the serial number Jake of course said at first that he had never seen it before and then that yes it must have been an old light duty steel airbox that got mixed in by accident, this is an ISO certified company, how can that happen and it happened to me twice, I guess I'm just lucky huh
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That's an airbox from one year ago, when I sent them the serial number Jake of course said at first that he had never seen it before and then that yes it must have been an old light duty steel airbox that got mixed in by accident, this is an ISO certified company, how can that happen and it happened to me twice, I guess I'm just lucky huh
Guess so.
Got the new airbox for mine, cleaned the old and zero signs of corrosion. Course I suppose some might be hiding in a corner somewhere but unless a person cut it clear apart…..
For some perverse reason the wife likes the look of the Selkirk rain cap on the G200, still has a sticker on the side of the “spark arrestor”, still readable as is the sticker on the top of it. Guess Selkirk must use extremely high temp stuff to make their stickers eh?
I’ve gone thru several “rebuilt” starters from an ISO company on our John Deere loader, first one lasted a week, second worked so well it wouldn’t disengage sometimes, third was finally right. This tractor is literally the worst anything I’ve ever changed a starter on, have several “custom” wrenches made just for the bolt that hides between the backside of the starter and block.
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Far as making your own, unless you are going thru a ton of makeup water not sure it’s worth the hassle, well other than bragging rights.
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Guess we can be mad at the mild steel air box and mad at Jake, or mad at the company mistake if that"s what feels good or be glad for a new stainless air box if that feels good.
Glad feels better than mad to me, so I'll choose Glad. Have a great day!
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When will you ever get it? It isn't about being mad, it's about being lied to or misled, I thought you guys were all good Religious folk, there is a passage in there somewhere about it would be better to tie a millstone around your neck and cast it into the water, you might want to freshen up on it.
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Ok so I finally found the serial numbers that both had the issue with the airboxes, first one was installed feb 2016 run one season and found when servicing the next spring it's serial number was 111511 it was sold into Enosburg Falls Vt.
The second actually has a picture on here of us delivering during a snow storm late last fall 2016 it's serial number is 111765 this as well was just discovered this summer during a summer service.
Mind you I must say that HeatMaster did in both cases send out a replacement air box but as I have said several times before, really the customer is expected to be happy that his $11000 boiler needs a repair such as this and they need to do it?
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Yah, I can definitely see the owners point there, however it could be worse, could be like a company that will remain nameless and tell the customer for warranty work the stove needs drained, shipped back to the factory and the owner gets to pay freight both ways.
Not sure why I was even there, but was on Legal Zoom awhile back, they have pages and pages of stuff for warranties.
Personally, and this is personally, installing a new air box wouldn’t bother me that much. I’ve yet to make it to the ranks of a rich farmer yet, had all kinds of issues with the last used combine we bought, paid 140K for it, but the dealer was in no hurry to help out much with problems that arose mainly as he was keeping the new ones running that guys dropped 300K or better on, he flat out said, if you wanted a warranty you should have bought new.
That’s why none of my equipment will ever have a DEF system on em, I like old school far as equipment goes, roll it down the hill if required when the battery is dead or the starter is out. Newest one we have if the alternator is one it’s last legs but still not turning the idiot light on the three point won’t work and sometimes it won’t shift gears. Fought that for weeks once until actually testing the alternator while on the tractor.
I’ve had injection pumps apart before with some success, have yet been able to take most sensors apart and repair em.
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Well I can say that if I bought a new ( insert brand and product ) and in less than a year, in reality we are talking a few months of use here any part of the product deteriorating to this point and then I find out that it's the only one they have ever seen at the factory, we will send you another one to replace that one, no we don't need the old one back for diagnosis, that alone tells me that they 1 knew about it, 2 have seen it before and 3 expect me to take my time to repair their mistake! I personally will not want to do further business withthat company, period