Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Ridgekid on May 04, 2011, 02:43:43 PM
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By now, most of you who have been following my threads, and know I bought the CB 5036 to replace a woodburning stove. The woodburning stove was to reduce electric use of our heatpump. The addition of the DHWX was also to reduce my electric load.
What you didn't know was that my house was an electric hog! Other than the telephone it's the only utility I have to pay for. I average $200 a month.
My electric load (Pre OWB) consists of The Well, Sand Mound pump (Septic system) , Street light, sump pump, 2 Fridges, one freezer, Dryer, HWH, Stove/Oven, heatpump, lights, TV's Ect. I was using 74 kWh a day!
During the last month I changed the load. Added the OWB and DHWX. Removed one fridge and downsized the freezer (Both were over 20 years old) from a 16 cu ft to a 7 cu ft. They read my meter on the first of each month, so until I get the electric bill I could not see what I was saving. I know now! I take the current meter reading, subtract what I was billed and divide by number of days used. I'm down to 22 kWh a day!
I'm going to miss winter when I shut down the OWB. :'(
I added insulation to the attic in November raising the R factor from R19 to R40. Hopefully I'll see some savings when the AC gets turned on. It won't be as mush as with the OWB, but at least our summers are short here in the mountains of PA. And of course the HWH will be on electric again., but at least it's on a timer.
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That is amazing! You are saving 52kwh way more than half of what you were using. Those dollars will definitely come in handy elsewhere. Congratuations.
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Good deal Ridgekid!!
Up date for you on whats happening in my neck o the woods....Sunday, big day coming for me. Got the urecon pipe and mini-excavator lined up for Sunday. Big hammer drill for poured foundation.
That pipe sure ain't the most flexible stuff, for sure. Should be fun to work with. Need to get some conduit for electric yet.
You are really seeing the fruits of your labor, making it a most worth-while project. Wish I had the "coin" sooner for my install, but better late than never! My propane bill was higher per mo. than your electric! My shack was built in 2000 and is well insulated. 2800 sq ft, excluding basement.
I do prefer winter, but am looking forward to a break. Summer was slow in coming this year. Can't wait to get my garden in! One project at a time, though....
Take care. Bill
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MTJAG-
If I only could keep the daily use the same until June 1st. My electric company would have a heart attack when they sent me my $80 electric bill! (I have a rate sheet as I have been reading my own meter for the last 18 years. This bill is only the second since they installed the AMR meters. AMR= Automatic Meter readers)
Bill-
Oh yes the black snake!. It took four of us to get the final 15 degree turn to push it through the wall of the basement!. When installing by the OWB we made a wide turn and went deep to make the next turn up to the foundation. Have fun with that!
For conduit I used that 3/4" black water pipe. If for some reason I ever have to replace the wire I won't have to dig it up. It pulls through really easy.
My shack was built in 1992, 2000 sq ft, 2700 sq ft with the basement.
TAKE PICTURES! We always enjoy looking at new installs! (I also think it helps others prepare for thier installations)
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Just wondering if any of you guys know how much your electric company is charging you per kwh. I live in s.e.mich and they are charging me 12cents per kwh and I am averaging 31-32 kwh per day. I am just curious how much the rates vary around the country ?
On a related note I thought I would see a big reduction in my electric bill when I shut off the breaker to my hot water heater and started heating my dhw with my owb. I really havn't noticed much difference if any. I guess the circulator pumps (2) running 24/7 and the combustion blower running occasionally and the circulating pump on my radiant floor running must use more juice than advertised. :bash:
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I'm on REA Energy which is a co-op. My current rate is .083600 per kWh. This is the discounted rate when paid in full before the due date.
To futher break it down:
Generation & trans= kWh x .061666
Distribution=kWh x .020898
Service Charge $21.85/month
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Was curious too, with 2 circ pumps 24/7, (one from owb, one to existing LP boiler).
Guess we'll soon find out. Most everyone I asked about hook up said that is the best/easiest way to set-up. Will put enough valves and 2 y-strainers and pipe for fill in basement. Open for suggestions.
Bill
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Bill G, are you getting your hot water off of the LP boiler? If not I don't understand why that pump would run 24/7. If you look on the pumps you should see what kind of power they pull. I often use a three speed pump so customers can try them on the low speed (60w) and see if it works. 60w isn't all that much, it would be like leaving one light on 24/7.
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How about the new Grundfos Alpha pumps. MTJAG is using them and seems to be very happy with it. Pics in his gallery.
http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/download.nsf/Pages/4A21BE19B465E75E882575A50057B02E/ (http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/download.nsf/Pages/4A21BE19B465E75E882575A50057B02E/)$File/L-AL-SL-001.pdf
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Mr. Yoder,
Glad you chimed in so I now can pick your brain!!
Hot water baseboard and DHW comes off LP boiler. Have that Weil/mclain holding tank set-up for DHW. So, I only need the one pump out at OWB and one inside to keep LP boiler happy. Looking at 70 plate W to W HX. Maybe overkill?
I think you are going to suggest a 3 sp pump and aquastat for inside LP boiler? If you could maybe give me some guidance as to how that inside should be rigged?
Have that 1" (32mm) urecon pipe on hand and maybe recommend what size pumps and such?
2800 sq ft plus basement. Set on that P&M opt 250 OWB.
Thank-you for your time and I'd certainly hire you for a few hrs if you were closer to NE PA.
Bill
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Just wondering if any of you guys know how much your electric company is charging you per kwh. I live in s.e.mich and they are charging me 12cents per kwh and I am averaging 31-32 kwh per day. I am just curious how much the rates vary around the country ?
On a related note I thought I would see a big reduction in my electric bill when I shut off the breaker to my hot water heater and started heating my dhw with my owb. I really havn't noticed much difference if any. I guess the circulator pumps (2) running 24/7 and the combustion blower running occasionally and the circulating pump on my radiant floor running must use more juice than advertised. :bash:
Around here they only read the meter every few months and average it. If you were using much hot water it should make a big difference. Every 5 gallons of water you use is about 1 KWH not figuring what is used from loss in the tank.
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Im on New Hampshire Electric Co-op... Heres what they charge for per KWH: (this is current since I just got the bill lol)
Member service charge: $22.35
Delivery charge: KWH x .03437
Stranded cost charge: KWH x .01032
System benfit charge: KWH x .00330
NH comsumption & bet taxes: KWH x .00082
Regional access charge: KWH x .01884
Co-op Power: KWH x .07831
For the month of April used 464 KWH..Bill $90.09
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I don't have the numbers as I let the wife pay the bills .I know she said we dropped about 200 off our bill.No more electric heat.I am on REMC co-op in indiana.
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I am on REMC here in Indiana also and dropped about $200 a month off my bill also.
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With the OWB secured for the summer my kWh usage is slowly creeping back up. As of today I'm up to 27 kWh/day. If I can maintain this rate our next bill sill still be under $100.
We were definetly spoiled with the OWB. Wife was cold last night as I have the thermostat for the heatpump set at 70 F. I reminded her the daytime temps are in the 70 F+ so she shouldn't leave the windows open past dusk. (it was 48F this morning)
Of course the smaller Freezer and the removal of the spare Fridge should also keep the kWh usage lower.
Only 21 days till the next electric bill. :)
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We are on Consumers Energy where I live in Michigan.
Here's how bad they let us have it.
Electric Power Supply Charges:
Energy 851@.072567 $61.75
PSCR 851@.001670 1.42
Renewable Energy 2.50
Electric Delivery Charges:
System Access 6.00
Distribution 851@.034482 29.34
Energy Optimization 851@.001982 1.69
Securitization 851@.001250 1.06
Securitization Tax 851@.000597 .51
Sales Tax 4.17
Total $108.44
I have no idea what PSCR or Securitization even is.
Marty
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I feel your pain Marty, I to live in mich and have consumers energy, You might as well bend over and grab your ankles, and it is one of the worst grids for power outages. Seems like every time a cloud goes over we lose power! :bash:
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It can be a nice clear, calm day here and the power will go out.
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I feel your pain Marty, I to live in mich and have consumers energy, You might as well bend over and grab your ankles, and it is one of the worst grids for power outages. Seems like every time a cloud goes over we lose power! :bash:
The electric grid in most parts of the country is getting older and seeing less maintenance, it will probably get worse before it gets better. I posed a question about standby gennys on the general discussion board.
Gary
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I checked my hot tub amperage draw last night. I have a shell hx to heat my tub with my wood boiler. It is a 220 volt hook up.....2 110volt feeds. It has a small circulater pump that runs 24/7. I have a on-off-on 40amp switch to change from electric heat to wood. On wood, the switched (from thermostat on tub setting) 110 leg powers a 24 volt transformer to open 3 way taco valve. On electric, tub functions normally.
Here's what I came up with
Heating with OWB:
line 1 line 2
heater off 1.14 amps .04 amps
heater on 1.65 amps .04 amps
heating with electric:
line 1 line 2
heater off 1.67 amps .04 amps
heater on 1.67 amps 24.1 amps
I guess to figure savings I would need to know how many hours a day the tub is heating and all that stuff.......haven't run the tub during the winter without the OWB to compare.......and I don't really want to ::)
OK, so I don't know what it means as far as $'s saved a month, but it must be something.....right? I feel like I'm saving money ;) I'm going to keep the new boiler going this summer for hot tub and DHW to see how easy it will be. Gonna use all my "junk" wood to keep it going........which doesn't seem to be much.
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That doesn't sound like the electric heater is working right. If they ran 220v to it then I would assume the heating element is supposed to be 220v. From what you described it is only running on 120v. But running a heater at half the voltage only uses 1/4 the wattage. How is the actual heating element wired?
It is drawing about 2800 watts from the numbers you posted. If it is supposed to be 220v it would draw over 10,000 watts.
What size wire and circuit breaker does it have feeding it?
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That doesn't sound like the electric heater is working right. If they ran 220v to it then I would assume the heating element is supposed to be 220v. From what you described it is only running on 120v. But running a heater at half the voltage only uses 1/4 the wattage. How is the actual heating element wired?
It is drawing about 2800 watts from the numbers you posted. If it is supposed to be 220v it would draw over 10,000 watts.
What size wire and circuit breaker does it have feeding it?
I don't know the size of the wire feeding it....looks around #6 copper? It is fed from a 50 amp ground fault breaker box mounted on my outside wall designed for hot tubs. In the spa pack, there are 2 wires going to the heating element. One wire has 110v at the element lug all the time and one is 0 volts when tub is not calling for heat and 110volts when tub is calling for heat. I was told that this is how they wire the elements so only 1 leg has to switch on and off for element to work. This is the wire that now runs to the on-off-on switch to energize transformer for wood or back to element for electric. The readings were taken at the red and black wires leaving the ground fault breaker in the box. I don't know, I didn't have my glasses on.....maybe it was 2.41 amps and not 24.1? would that sound reasonable? I didn't have any additional (3) jet pumps on during the readings. I'm guessing they all run off of the other leg?
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I think there is something wrong with it. I would bet it is supposed to be around 45 amps on each leg of the 220v. If you put the volt meter between the 2 wires (red and black) at the GFI does it read ~220v?
If it is running on a 50 amp breaker it is very likely it is a 10KW heater. If working properly it will use 10 KWH every hour. ($1 per hour if you pay $0.10 per KWH)
10KW is 34,000 BTU
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I think there is something wrong with it. I would bet it is supposed to be around 45 amps on each leg of the 220v. If you put the volt meter between the 2 wires (red and black) at the GFI does it read ~220v?
If it is running on a 50 amp breaker it is very likely it is a 10KW heater. If working properly it will use 10 KWH every hour. ($1 per hour if you pay $0.10 per KWH)
10KW is 34,000 BTU
I'll check but I'm sure it would read 220. 4 wires out of double breaker in house panel feeds outside box. 2 110volt, 1 common, 1 ground. As far as the tub....it has been set @ 102 to 104 for 3 years and hasn't missed a beat. The past 2 summers I shut the boiler down, switched to "electric" and all has worked fine. Never popped a breaker, always up to temp. All pumps function all the time. In fact, I did switch to electric last month for a week or two to do some revamping to boiler system so I had shut down the boiler.......worked like a charm. I was just figuring on keeping boiler going this summer just..."cause" Maybe I'll get my electrician to look at it.
Thanks
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If it is keeping up to temperature then it must be working properly. Any chance the amp meter wasn't reading right? Are you using a clamp on meter? Can you put it on the wire at the heating element?
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If it is keeping up to temperature then it must be working properly. Any chance the amp meter wasn't reading right? Are you using a clamp on meter? Can you put it on the wire at the heating element?
Yes I was using a clamp on meter. I can put it right on the wires but I'd have to move the steps and such to get to it. It's partially sunken into my deck. One day I have nothing to do I'll do a better check.