Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => WoodMaster => Topic started by: ijon on October 26, 2016, 03:40:27 PM

Title: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: ijon on October 26, 2016, 03:40:27 PM
What are your thoughts on Woodmaster's clean fire boiler. It looks like pretty  good design.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: mlappin on October 26, 2016, 08:06:19 PM
Honestly?

The catalyst and pressurized design are a step backwards to me.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: slimjim on October 27, 2016, 03:41:45 AM
I'm not exited about the catalyst but I do like the idea of an external pressurized tank and their claims on emissions / stack temps are very good. I'll say this for them, they do tend to think out of the box, sometimes that's a big hit and sometimes it's not. I guess it all depends on warranty, price and dependability.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: mlappin on October 27, 2016, 06:30:20 AM
I have to respectably disagree, a pressurized tank just adds another level of complexity that doesnít have to be.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: slimjim on October 27, 2016, 06:43:21 AM
I as well get nervous regarding pressurized tanks in an outdoor wood boiler, however it does add to the lifespan of the unit and if properly installed and maintained, it can be very safe.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on October 27, 2016, 03:16:48 PM
I watched the 18 minute video on their website. Looks actually very interesting, I would like to hear about some real users with them. I thought at first 'why would they go with a cat and not a downdraft gassification?" The answer became obvious though when I realized what they were doing, a dry firebox with a modulating output. Actually seems pretty innovative, is anyone else building anything like this?
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: mlappin on October 27, 2016, 03:39:51 PM
Your G series uses a modulating damper to control the combustion process.

Not a huge fan of a dry firebox, have welded many a crack shut in forced air wood furnaces, however given that it is an outdoor boiler as long as the crack wasnít in a critical location it could most likely be ignored.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on October 27, 2016, 06:28:10 PM
The g series is very crude in its 'modulating'. The clean fire uses the delta t from the supply to return lines to modulate the btu output to match the demand.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: Pointblank on October 27, 2016, 06:57:44 PM
Looks like they've taken the owb design to a whole new level. Innovative for sure.  I like the dry firebox and a 30 year lifespan would be awesome.
Im curious how the modulating fire works on warmer days. Would prolonged idling adversely effect the catalyst?
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: MattyNH on October 27, 2016, 07:55:45 PM
Very interesting! I checked out the web sight and 2 videos. Curious how much wood it will save if any compared to the Heatmaster and Edge..I got a WM dealer not too far from me..Maybe ill check them out..
 
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: mlappin on October 27, 2016, 08:45:13 PM
The g series is very crude in its 'modulating'. The clean fire uses the delta t from the supply to return lines to modulate the btu output to match the demand.



Just not sold on mild steel anymore. Iíve spent a rather decent portion of my life welding patches in stuff that rotted out, sumps, auger hoppers, grain boxes on trucks, gravity wagons, wood burning stoves, etc. Anymore if itís something we plan on keeping and its feasible most of my patches are of stainless steel anymore. Iíve even made new grates for the floor drains in our basement out of stainless, the old ones were cast and were made so the bottom part of the casting formed the water trap, a chunk of ten gauge stainless and 3Ē stainless pipe welded to the bottom made a grate Iíll never have to replace.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on October 27, 2016, 08:50:52 PM
I agree on the mild steel. But pressurizing it should take care of that issue I think. According to the numbers the g200 will actually run as clean and actually has a better efficiency rating. That being said those numbers are at steady burn rates for the g200. If the g200 was charging up storage and running and a consistent  rate, that would work but idling time hurts those efficiency numbers. That's why the constant running/modulating design of the clean fire is interesting.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: boilerman on October 27, 2016, 08:56:45 PM
Modulating combustion by controlling air flow is good feature. Central Boiler has been doing that in their Eclassics and Edge models for years. Using a thermocouple in combustion area that monitors combustion temps and modulates the amount of air injected into that area throughout burn cycles. Heatmaster units do not do that, there is no sensor in the unit that monitors combustion, just injects air on a preset timing sequence like the old Eclassic 2300 did. The Cleanfire is quite small though, only 102,400 max btu output, small 28"x30" firebox and small loading door of 16.5"x19"door. I have concerns/doubt about longevity of a cat converter and ability to keep it clean and breathing. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: mlappin on October 27, 2016, 09:13:35 PM
I agree on the mild steel. But pressurizing it should take care of that issue I think. According to the numbers the g200 will actually run as clean and actually has a better efficiency rating. That being said those numbers are at steady burn rates for the g200. If the g200 was charging up storage and running and a consistent  rate, that would work but idling time hurts those efficiency numbers. That's why the constant running/modulating design of the clean fire is interesting.

But there is still a rather large part of the stove that is mild steel that is not pressurized and subject to condensation. My old stove has never leaked a drop of water, still doesnít leak, however the door flange and exhaust exit have rotted away from plain old condensation.

Now if they had built it out of 409 stainless then it would not have to be pressurized and still get a long life out of it. Thereís a Heatmor down the road thats on its third owner, guy replaced all the external tin on it as it had pin holes rusted thru. The unit itself is still solid with no leaks.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: RSI on October 27, 2016, 10:50:59 PM
The price of them is very close to the G200. I looked at one at a fair this summer and talked to the dealer for a while. He hadn't run one yet but was pretty knowledgeable about them. I asked him about the dry firebox burning out and he said it wasn't a problem because the water jacket was right behind it so it limited how hot it could get.

Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: slimjim on October 28, 2016, 02:33:54 AM
I for one want to wish them good luck with it. The past few years have been pretty hard on the industry and we need more innovation, it would seem to me that in the slow years would be the perfect time to make those improvements.They had some very nice conventional's that for the most part cannot be sold anymore, we don't as an industry need another company going belly up so WoodMaster if you are listening, I personally would like to wish you good luck with it and congratulations for coming up with a new product unlike any other EPA certified unit. One more thing, if you are listening, how about appointing somebody from your organization to help with the questions / concerns asked here on this forum?
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: MattyNH on October 28, 2016, 01:43:54 PM
I for one want to wish them good luck with it. The past few years have been pretty hard on the industry and we need more innovation, it would seem to me that in the slow years would be the perfect time to make those improvements.They had some very nice conventional's that for the most part cannot be sold anymore, we don't as an industry need another company going belly up so WoodMaster if you are listening, I personally would like to wish you good luck with it and congratulations for coming up with a new product unlike any other EPA certified unit. One more thing, if you are listening, how about appointing somebody from your organization to help with the questions / concerns asked here on this forum?
  :thumbup:..
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: NWmfgInc on November 10, 2016, 01:43:04 PM
Thank you for the comments and questions.
A few things that we would like to reply to, Dry fire chamber burns hotter, not being water cooled, aprox 700 to 800 degrees, this keeps the chamber free from creosote and dry, the moisture from the wood is carried through the system and out the stack. Ash is really not corrosive until it gets wet and the round design handles those temps without warping or cracking.
The pressurized boiler keeps air out of the system, open systems that are not flushed or have the correct amount of treatment in them will produce sludge. Corrosion will occur at the water level line and under sludge that has settled in the tank.
The Catalyst has been used in the auto industry for over 50 years, experience, dependable and a well built product. The Modulating control knows how much heat your using and burns at that rate. We do not burn hard to recover water temp and then shut off, we target the water set point (185 and adjustable) and as we reach that target, the burn slows down to stay within a few degrees of target. The control also watches the temp of the cat to prevent over heating of the cat when damage could occur.
TeamWM
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: E Yoder on June 06, 2020, 12:56:12 PM
I know this has been dead for a long time, just thought I'd mention I did a search for the woodmaster cleanfire and came across some pictures that look identical to the central boiler classic Edge.
I'm wondering if it's a copy with CB owning Woodmaster now?
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: RSI on June 06, 2020, 10:03:59 PM
A woodmaster dealer told me they are just selling Central Boilers.
He didn't really say if they would be labeled as Woodmaster or if they would be Central boiler labeled.
Title: Re: Woodmasters clean fire
Post by: Allegheny Ridgerunner on October 10, 2020, 07:52:06 AM
A woodmaster dealer told me they are just selling Central Boilers.
He didn't really say if they would be labeled as Woodmaster or if they would be Central boiler labeled.

So, who bought who? Did Woodmaster acquire Central Boiler or vice versa?  I'm also curious to see if any of the original posters actually purchased one of the sealed systems and how they've held up.

We have a Woodmaster 434 that we bought in 2001, loved it so much we brought it from the original installation to our new home about 6 years ago. It's running like a champ for the most part, but eventually, it's going to need replacing. When that happens, choosing the 'right' replacement will be crucial.