Outdoor Wood Furnace Info

All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: Pointblank on June 19, 2019, 07:16:43 PM

Title: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on June 19, 2019, 07:16:43 PM
Does anyone know if the epa rules are applied to outbuildings? Curious if one is still allowed if its not used to heat the primary residence?  Say for example you just wanted to heat an outbuilding such as a detached garage or barn.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: mlappin on June 19, 2019, 07:24:39 PM
From my recollection any residence requires a EPA approved stove as in a coal  or gasifier to heat a residence with a residence being defined as any structure that has sleeping quarters.

I installed a C500 last year to heat a 10,000sqft horse barn, the owner has no desire to heat the house as well as itís super insulated and already has nat gas and a insert.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: E Yoder on June 20, 2019, 05:11:50 AM
That's what I read too. The sleeping quarters defines it as residential, which brings in EPA regs.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on June 20, 2019, 06:59:23 PM
Here I thought it needed to be a business. Thanks for clearing that up gentlemen!
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: E Yoder on June 21, 2019, 01:41:03 AM
I've heard all kinds of ideas about it floating around at shows (if you own a farm or business you're exempt, etc).
 If in doubt I'd look up the law and read it yourself. It's dry reading but not that bad. :)
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: mlappin on June 21, 2019, 02:29:56 PM
I've heard all kinds of ideas about it floating around at shows (if you own a farm or business you're exempt, etc).
 If in doubt I'd look up the law and read it yourself. It's dry reading but not that bad. :)

A farm shop. outbuilding, chicken coop, hog barn, dairy barn, veal barn, etc etc etc are all exempt, hook the house to it and it needs to meet EPA regulations. Indiana has there own law in effect, pretty much mirrors the federal one except youíre only allowed to run it from September 15th to May 15th which I thought was pretty generous of em.

Then of course some counties also have their own rules, the one east of me adopted 2020 regulations plus have a ton of other crap about x number of feet from the property line, x number of feet from the nearest neighbors residence, blah blah and it has to be located x number of feet from any insured structure blah blah blah and has to be behind the house, not beside or in front of, a lot of chicago democrats in that county.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on June 21, 2019, 04:54:59 PM
Thanks for the replys guys. At some point in the future I'm considering scaling back on the firewood cutting. Got a 30x48 detached garage that I could probably heat on 2 or 3 cord a year and a conventional stove would make things quite a bit easier for me.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on June 23, 2019, 02:42:08 PM
Man, you could buy propane for 2 lifetimes before that pay off...
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: E Yoder on June 24, 2019, 03:39:39 AM
Depends on what stove you buy.
To some degree I burn wood for the independence factor. I don't even know what propane prices are. :) That's a good feeling.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on June 24, 2019, 05:24:21 PM
Assuming decent insulation in a 30x48, we're talking $3-400 a year worth of LP keeping it at 55 ambient in MN. I small stove like a C150 would still be oversized most of the year and have a lot of idle time, but let's say $6-7k once you buy the stove, underground, pump, HX, electrical, etc. Then add in the cost of cutting wood (we all know it's far from free), at $400/yr it'd take 20 years to break even and at that point you need a new stove again. Sure wouldn't catch me starting a chainsaw if that were my scenario
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on June 24, 2019, 08:42:21 PM
$300 to heat a 30x48 building? You realize I'm in Minnesota, right?
You'd be lucky to keep a fishhouse warm up here for $300  :)
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: E Yoder on June 25, 2019, 01:44:25 AM
$300 to heat a 30x48 building? You realize I'm in Minnesota, right?
You'd be lucky to keep a fishhouse warm up here for $300  :)
Lol!
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on June 25, 2019, 06:17:19 PM
$300 to heat a 30x48 building? You realize I'm in Minnesota, right?
You'd be lucky to keep a fishhouse warm up here for $300  :)

Yes I do, and so am I. If you think you can do it on 2-3 cord with a conventional stove at 50% efficiency, that's 25,000,000-37,500,000 BTU with good dry oak. Converted to LP at 95% efficiency with 86,500 BTU per gallon, we have 289-433 gallons of propane. I just got a "summer fill" quote yesterday for $.89 a gallon. You're welcome to do the math yourself, but mine says $257-385. The numbers don't lie
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on June 25, 2019, 08:08:32 PM
$300 to heat a 30x48 building? You realize I'm in Minnesota, right?
You'd be lucky to keep a fishhouse warm up here for $300  :)

Yes I do, and so am I. If you think you can do it on 2-3 cord with a conventional stove at 50% efficiency, that's 25,000,000-37,500,000 BTU with good dry oak. Converted to LP at 95% efficiency with 86,500 BTU per gallon, we have 289-433 gallons of propane. I just got a "summer fill" quote yesterday for $.89 a gallon. You're welcome to do the math yourself, but mine says $257-385. The numbers don't lie

OK, you got me, sign me up.
Never would have guessed you can heat 1500 sq ft  in Minnesota for $257 by simply switching to propane.
Here i thought i was saving money all these years by cutting wood.
I'll be sure to pass on this wealth of knowledge to my friends and family who are also mistakingly still burning wood.

Anyone interested in a Classic Edge 550 and a slightly used Stihl 440?  Might have 30 ton splitter I'd be willing to part with also.
Oh..... That $.89 a gallon propane comes with a lifetime guarantee right?   ;)
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on June 26, 2019, 07:03:16 AM
Be a smartass all you want, I don't care. Aside from the crisis 5-6 years ago, when is the last time LP got above $1.30? Before I started burning wood, I was heating 2800 sq ft on about 1000 gallons a winter including DHW. My 1600 sq ft shop with 14ft sidewalls and two 12x12 doors will heat for $120/mo on electric which is equivalent in cost to $3 propane (so would cost about $450 a year at $.89 on LP if I had an LP boiler). A BTU is a BTU, no matter where it comes from and as my calculations above clearly show, 3 cord of wood at 50% efficiency is the same BTU output as 433 gallons of LP at 95% efficiency. If you disagree with scientific facts, that's just fine but you're wrong. Again, the numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: juddspaintballs on June 26, 2019, 02:54:13 PM
Propane is over $3/gallon here. 
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on June 26, 2019, 06:52:53 PM
Propane is over $3/gallon here.

That's there, not here where the OP and myself reside. It hit $5 for a few months back 5-6 years ago but I have never once paid more than $1.09 and that was last year
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on June 26, 2019, 07:54:23 PM
Be a smartass all you want, I don't care. Aside from the crisis 5-6 years ago, when is the last time LP got above $1.30? Before I started burning wood, I was heating 2800 sq ft on about 1000 gallons a winter including DHW. My 1600 sq ft shop with 14ft sidewalls and two 12x12 doors will heat for $120/mo on electric which is equivalent in cost to $3 propane (so would cost about $450 a year at $.89 on LP if I had an LP boiler). A BTU is a BTU, no matter where it comes from and as my calculations above clearly show, 3 cord of wood at 50% efficiency is the same BTU output as 433 gallons of LP at 95% efficiency. If you disagree with scientific facts, that's just fine but you're wrong. Again, the numbers don't lie.

OK......

I appreciate your input, and no doubt an argument could be made for propane.  My biggest concern with your numbers are your understating the price of propane. Assuming everyone is paying .89 a gallon because of some summer sale your provider is running is your first mistake. The government reports a list every month during heating season and the average price in MN last year was in the 1.50 -1.60 range and this fell right in line with the 1.55 i paid back in october. Using 89 cents a gallon vs1.50 that the rest of the state averaged changes your equasion considerably. Numbers dont lie, but changing them out to better match what people were actually paying in the state changes everything. Going from .89 to 1.50 is  a 75% increase in heating costs. That's huge.

I also think your underestimating the btu load of the building.  I built this place 25 years ago and I've heated before with propane. I still have the modine heater hanging from the ceiling as a back up. That $300 dollars of propane you think is going to cover the entire season disappears quickly when January sets in and we get that run of -20 nights. Been there, Done that, and its the main reason my first OWB was installed back in 2002.

Do I think you could heat this building economicly on propane. Absolutely.
Are you gonna consistantly do it on $300 a year? Not a chance.

Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on July 02, 2019, 05:10:17 PM
First of all, you gave the estimated heat load by saying 2-3 cord. That includes a hefty amount of ground loss (yes, even good line loses a lot of heat), so likely closer to 2 cord actually going into the building. As I said above, I have never paid more than $1.09 for LP. Ever. If you're paying market price of $1.55 that's entirely your fault for not pre-buying when the price is low. For grins though, let's try again with the 2 cord number AKA 25,000,000 BTU and 80% efficiency from the Modine which makes 73,200 BTU per gallon. That comes out to 342 gallons of LP. So Even if you were for some reason paying $1.55, that's $529 for the winter. Seeing as you already have the Modine in place and I can only assume it's still connected to the tank and needs nothing besides more propane to run, at $529 a year it's still going to take 12-15 years to pay off a new OWB IF the wood was completely free, your labor is worth nothing, and pump took zero electricity to run- which we all know is not the case. Hell, just the pump alone takes $30-120 a year to run depending on motor.

All I'm saying is weigh the options. The majority of us burn wood to save money; maybe have a little fun and get some exercise. Don't let the "freeness" of operation let you lose sight of the huge initial investment and overall cost of each over the lifespan of the stove
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Superwd6 on July 02, 2019, 08:41:04 PM
First of all, you gave the estimated heat load by saying 2-3 cord. That includes a hefty amount of ground loss (yes, even good line loses a lot of heat), so likely closer to 2 cord actually going into the building. As I said above, I have never paid more than $1.09 for LP. Ever. If you're paying market price of $1.55 that's entirely your fault for not pre-buying when the price is low. For grins though, let's try again with the 2 cord number AKA 25,000,000 BTU and 80% efficiency from the Modine which makes 73,200 BTU per gallon. That comes out to 342 gallons of LP. So Even if you were for some reason paying $1.55, that's $529 for the winter. Seeing as you already have the Modine in place and I can only assume it's still connected to the tank and needs nothing besides more propane to run, at $529 a year it's still going to take 12-15 years to pay off a new OWB IF the wood was completely free, your labor is worth nothing, and pump took zero electricity to run- which we all know is not the case. Hell, just the pump alone takes $30-120 a year to run depending on motor.




All I'm saying is weigh the options. The majority of us burn wood to save money; maybe have a little fun and get some exercise. Don't let the "freeness" of operation let you lose sight of the huge initial investment and overall cost of each over the lifespan of the stove

I agree about the numbers but letís face it, an outdoor boiler isnít just cheap heat but a life style 😂.  How many of us put a boiler in for just the building without adding the car garage, the quad garage, pool, hot tub, hot water AND a fifth wheel trailer.  I put a new high efficiency propane furnace in my house 2 years ago knowing boiler is on borrowed time but you know what? I froze, kept turning up thermostat and it never feels as warm as temperature rise of hot water coil. I know , different furnaces have better temperature rise than some. Our next house will be in floor heating and I keep looking at G100 because Iím going to save money no matter how much it costs me LOL
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on July 02, 2019, 09:07:49 PM
Its not the wood usage I'm talking about here. It was your original comment that you can heat a 30x48 in MN to 55 degrees with propane for $300 or $400 that I disagree with.  I guess theoretically its possible, but your gonna have to source a long term supply of EXTREMELY cheap propane to pull it off. I still have the heat loss calcs for this building.  Keeping it at 55 and going with last years price, Id burn past the 3 or 4 hundred dollar mark sometime in January. If the the price ever goes up again, (which it will) it will only get worse.

So at the risk of beating a dead horse here, how about we just agree to disagree on this one.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on July 06, 2019, 08:11:24 AM
But you did base the whole subject on wood usage- which directly correlates to the amount of LP that would be used to put out the same amount of heat. X amount of wood has a certain BTU output, just like gas does. There is a direct correlation between the two, so X amount of wood is equivalent to X amount of LP. If you couldn't heat it on the amount of LP I specified, you couldn't heat it on the amount of wood you specified
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on July 08, 2019, 07:02:20 PM
The subject was never about wood usage, it was weather or not I could use a conventional for an outbuilding. It was a $300 a year propane claim where this thing kind of slid off into the ditch.  And I guess im not sure where your trying to go with this. Is my guesstimate of 2-3 cord off? Could very well be. Conventional efficiencies run anywhere from horrible on the low end to darn close to gasifiers on the top end.  I could be way off, I could be pretty close... To be honest, I really don't see the point in arguing over it anyway.  I could guess 2 cord, 4 cord, 7 cord...... We could argue that x amount of wood equals x amount of propane...... It doesn't matter.  The cost of the wood is, and always will be next to nothing. 
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on July 09, 2019, 03:40:11 PM
As I have already mentioned, my point was to do your homework if the objective is to save money. Seeing as you have no interest in doing the homework, you will simply be throwing $hit at a wall. Enjoy.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Pointblank on July 09, 2019, 05:56:56 PM
As I have already mentioned, my point was to do your homework if the objective is to save money. Seeing as you have no interest in doing the homework, you will simply be throwing $hit at a wall. Enjoy.

Do my homework says the guy who thinks you can heat 1500 sq ft in MN for $300.
Thanks for the laugh dude, you just made my day.

If you've read any of my previous posts, you'll see I've heated this building with propane before and I still have the heat loss calcs. from when I built it.  I can tell you right down to the gallon how much this building will use at any given time or temperature. 
So......Given this knowledge, and after factoring in propane prices and the cost involved in swapping out stoves, Yes, I have chosen to heat with wood. I know somehow this bothers you....If you feel I need to get more precise then this then please enlighten me, as I'm just a simple homeowner here and you clearly have all the answers. Its wonderful support such as yours that truly makes makes this forum great.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: slimjim on July 10, 2019, 05:57:39 AM
Where is that darn like button Marty!
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: hondaracer2oo4 on July 11, 2019, 06:42:39 AM
Is the heat loss calc for sizing to overcome a temp differential or maintain a given temp?
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: mlappin on July 11, 2019, 11:37:00 PM
Where is that darn like button Marty!

There is only a few adons available to add a like button to this forum software. Neither had very good reviews from people who have installed it and neither have been updated for years. I also donít have the necessary permissions to start tinkering with the forum software
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on July 13, 2019, 08:50:34 AM
Well, I know for a fact I can heat my 32x48 for under $250 with $.89 LP so there's that. Little things called design temp and heating degree days will tell that tale every time with a heat loss calc. Sorry about your poor insulation and poor heater efficiency, my math was simply a correlation of the BTU usage estimated by you- which was obviously way wrong. Surely didn't mean to strike a chord with you and I'm sorry for trying to help. Enjoy processing 5-6 cord of wood every year to heat your garage
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: Superwd6 on July 13, 2019, 08:38:17 PM
Well, I know for a fact I can heat my 32x48 for under $250 with $.89 LP so there's that. Little things called design temp and heating degree days will tell that tale every time with a heat loss calc. Sorry about your poor insulation and poor heater efficiency, my math was simply a correlation of the BTU usage estimated by you- which was obviously way wrong. Surely didn't mean to strike a chord with you and I'm sorry for trying to help. Enjoy processing 5-6 cord of wood every year to heat your garage
   You sound like our heat pump loving salesman where I work as a HVAC service tech. I sure get tired of trying to explain to customers why the bill was higher and they didnít save the money they were told 😂😂😂.
Title: Re: Is a Non-Epa stove allowed to heat an outbuilding?
Post by: wreckit87 on July 14, 2019, 09:22:46 AM
Well, I know for a fact I can heat my 32x48 for under $250 with $.89 LP so there's that. Little things called design temp and heating degree days will tell that tale every time with a heat loss calc. Sorry about your poor insulation and poor heater efficiency, my math was simply a correlation of the BTU usage estimated by you- which was obviously way wrong. Surely didn't mean to strike a chord with you and I'm sorry for trying to help. Enjoy processing 5-6 cord of wood every year to heat your garage
   You sound like our heat pump loving salesman where I work as a HVAC service tech. I sure get tired of trying to explain to customers why the bill was higher and they didnít save the money they were told 😂😂😂.

Those heat pump people are all the same lol. I'm not trying to sell a darn thing though, just weighing options on paper. If I was trying to push the gas I sure wouldn't be on a wood boiler forum and be burning wood myself. However if I didn't have 3 buildings and 6800 sq ft of space and a sidewalk to heat, that would likely change. My 32x48 was just put up and I did the math on it, debating whether it made more sense to dig a lineset from the boiler or just run it on gas. It came out very close dollar-wise but that's with having the OWB already in place, so the extra wood isn't a huge deal because I'm bringing some in anyway. Spending $6-8k on a unit and processing firewood solely to heat a 1500 sq ft garage just doesn't pan out financially unless the heat loss is tremendous and cutting wood is a hobby. Processing the quantity of wood that Pointblank will need to satisfy his garage would take quite a few hours, so if your time is worth anything or you were to put that time in getting paid at work instead of bucking wood for free it doesn't make financial sense. I, for one, do not enjoy cutting and splitting and hauling and stacking firewood but my time is worth little enough that it still works out financially.