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1
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Temperature settings
« on: February 02, 2012, 05:06:48 PM »
Thanks for all the comments from everyone. I agree with you Bill G. in regards to the constant questioning and various opinions. It helps to educate everyone.
The “low temperature” test was / is just that. Out of the box, plug in and run. From that initial test, couldn’t be any more satisfied with the results. We will be progressively elevating the set point and closely monitoring performance in upcoming days.
Shawn
The “low temperature” test was / is just that. Out of the box, plug in and run. From that initial test, couldn’t be any more satisfied with the results. We will be progressively elevating the set point and closely monitoring performance in upcoming days.
Shawn
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Temperature settings
« on: February 02, 2012, 11:52:58 AM »
The burn cycle, long or short from the factory ON-OFF control with differential, whichever it may be, still leads to erratic control and belching smoke and wasted fuel in the recovery during the beginning of every recovery cycle. Even with this first series of tests, the neighbors will be very happy.
Thank you for the comments.
Thank you for the comments.
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Temperature settings
« on: February 02, 2012, 11:17:31 AM »
Hi,
Here is a graph of the i723 FIRESTORM, PID controller http://burnrite.net/PDF/012812-3.pdf . This is the low temperature test. Results are great.
Thanks,
Shawn
Here is a graph of the i723 FIRESTORM, PID controller http://burnrite.net/PDF/012812-3.pdf . This is the low temperature test. Results are great.
Thanks,
Shawn
4
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Temperature settings
« on: February 02, 2012, 09:47:03 AM »
Hello.
Here is a graph http://burnrite.net/PDF/012812-2.pdf of what a 5 degree differential does on a day with moderate ambient temperatures ~ 35F. Adding additional “soak” time only makes the problem worse. Recovering from the 5 degree differential or 15 degrees! only creates an unnecessary hot fire wasting fuel. There will not me much creosote or wood remaining.
As you can see, the marked areas are the startup point where huge amounts of belching smoke being emitted. No wonder why the EPA wants regulations. Those in close proximity to other residents complain and these stoves are being outlawed with residential zoning laws.
Shawn
Here is a graph http://burnrite.net/PDF/012812-2.pdf of what a 5 degree differential does on a day with moderate ambient temperatures ~ 35F. Adding additional “soak” time only makes the problem worse. Recovering from the 5 degree differential or 15 degrees! only creates an unnecessary hot fire wasting fuel. There will not me much creosote or wood remaining.
As you can see, the marked areas are the startup point where huge amounts of belching smoke being emitted. No wonder why the EPA wants regulations. Those in close proximity to other residents complain and these stoves are being outlawed with residential zoning laws.
Shawn
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 25, 2012, 06:53:25 PM »
Mcarter. You are ahead of the game here. Yes, I do have complete pre production products. It’s just testing time now. Fixed startup PID variables are used to minimize temperature oscillations (hunting) as much as possible before system can be realized with best case variables found during the auto tune process. The parameters will self tune (auto-tune) within a few heating cycles after set point is achieved while factoring in measured ambient temperature. The i723 is also user tunable via USB interface (this may not be a option on production units) and also with function routines like found on a more complicated watch. (hold button x down for 30 seconds and manual adjust the PID prams, overriding the auto-tune with user selected variables visible on the LCD display.
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 25, 2012, 06:15:21 PM »
Thank you for having an open mind Marty and willing to try something new.. It’s a necessity for being successful in life.
I have information that HeatMaster now has this variable speed closed loop draft motor electronic system for 2012. Maybe some of the dealers know for sure with details?
Shawn
I have information that HeatMaster now has this variable speed closed loop draft motor electronic system for 2012. Maybe some of the dealers know for sure with details?
Shawn
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 25, 2012, 05:14:48 PM »
Hi,
Yes, very close to market. Working on having the temperature logging data available before Monday 30th, next week on a real stove application. Hinging though on Fex-X delivering a broken K-thermocouple for the logger on Thursday or Friday.
I did attend a function last fall where there were, if I recall 3 or 4 manufactures representing their OWB’s. After a lengthy discussion about one stove manufacturer, I did expand on my ideas about advanced controlling designs. He did respond that there was a microcomputer version that they were toying with, that is all he would comment on. Maybe someone can help determine which manufacturer this was? Main thing I recall was that the unit was green (many are) and it had light colored fire brick inside? If I review my notes, I may have a business card? It was the regional rep I had the discussion with. You will see these controls on OEM stoves, it will be required to meet ever tightening emission requirements.
I have used these industrial PID controllers for over 20 years on precision electronics manufacturing process controls. They are truly wonderful.
Yes, very close to market. Working on having the temperature logging data available before Monday 30th, next week on a real stove application. Hinging though on Fex-X delivering a broken K-thermocouple for the logger on Thursday or Friday.
I did attend a function last fall where there were, if I recall 3 or 4 manufactures representing their OWB’s. After a lengthy discussion about one stove manufacturer, I did expand on my ideas about advanced controlling designs. He did respond that there was a microcomputer version that they were toying with, that is all he would comment on. Maybe someone can help determine which manufacturer this was? Main thing I recall was that the unit was green (many are) and it had light colored fire brick inside? If I review my notes, I may have a business card? It was the regional rep I had the discussion with. You will see these controls on OEM stoves, it will be required to meet ever tightening emission requirements.
I have used these industrial PID controllers for over 20 years on precision electronics manufacturing process controls. They are truly wonderful.
8
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 25, 2012, 12:14:23 PM »
Thanks to everyone for expressing their comments with the i723 product. It has been very useful and informative. As far as the creosote concerns, the factory installed ON-OFF control with differential promotes creosote on systems that are installed properly by the dealers, or a properly installed customer system where everything is correct and chosen components sized appropriately (our dealers are doing a good job out there). These systems can be somewhat more efficient. That being said, the factory ON-OFF system can allow long soak times which on moderate days can allow the fire to extinguish. These long soak time and shorter burn times aids in creosote formation. The formation of creosote is less on colder days where there is more demand on the installed system where the fire is actually burning more frequently, with longer burn times and shorter soak times.
The i723 does not have any soak time, but rather a controlled varying burn all the time. On colder days, when there is enough demand on the system that the formation of creosote is actually less than the factory ON-OFF controlled system. On moderate days, there may be very little burn needed to maintain the water temperature. i723 firmware monitors this data. If the system has been running with very little burn, less than ~25% capacity for 10 consecutive hours, the i723 will allow the water temperature to drop (y) degrees below the set point. Once this has happened, a full return to set point temperature is carried out allowing for a higher intensity controlled cycle. This “utility” incorporated keeps the creosote in check and the user does not feel interruptions with their heating.
By maintaining a steady burn with minimal fluctuations, fuel efficiency is also increased. Just like driving your car. Sure, you can get from point A to B by full, wide open throttle then releasing the throttle (ON-OFF) control while maintaining a differential of speed, say between 45 mph thru 55 mph. You can save a lot of energy by smoothly varying the gas pedal, metering the fuel needed to drive ~ 55mph.
The i723 does not have any soak time, but rather a controlled varying burn all the time. On colder days, when there is enough demand on the system that the formation of creosote is actually less than the factory ON-OFF controlled system. On moderate days, there may be very little burn needed to maintain the water temperature. i723 firmware monitors this data. If the system has been running with very little burn, less than ~25% capacity for 10 consecutive hours, the i723 will allow the water temperature to drop (y) degrees below the set point. Once this has happened, a full return to set point temperature is carried out allowing for a higher intensity controlled cycle. This “utility” incorporated keeps the creosote in check and the user does not feel interruptions with their heating.
By maintaining a steady burn with minimal fluctuations, fuel efficiency is also increased. Just like driving your car. Sure, you can get from point A to B by full, wide open throttle then releasing the throttle (ON-OFF) control while maintaining a differential of speed, say between 45 mph thru 55 mph. You can save a lot of energy by smoothly varying the gas pedal, metering the fuel needed to drive ~ 55mph.
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 24, 2012, 05:01:42 PM »
Hello. This writing will explain more in depth on how it works. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller The i723 is a true three-term PID controller. I must admit, it is impressive to watch the i723 actually work. When first starting the i723, the draft motor ramps up to a maximum speed, creating a hot burn in the firebox (keeping the creosote forever away) , then as the temperature of the water starts rising and approaching the set point (150F and user adjustable with simple up & down button) the draft motor starts slowing down so that it reaches the set point (150) as quickly as possible, but without exceeding the set point. It makes a calculated prediction from recent past history in time, how long it is taking at a given draft blower speed to elevate the water temperature from some temperature to some higher temperature. Same type of calculations are performed on time needed for water temperature to lower.... This is how it works and is able to keep a tight window around the set point temperature and within the capacity of thermal recovery of the stove (providing there is fuel for the fire), maintain this set point temperature even as various home heating loads are imposed.
Picture of i723 out of the enclosure. http://www.burnrite.net/images/product_002.jpg There are two 32 MHZ microcontrollers on the back side of the assembly which talk to one another using a protocol, they are optically isolated for safety from the AC voltages while performing the calculations and PID math, gathering temperature and providing information to users via the LCD display, checking for errors and safety function calls to shut the OWB down in the event of disconnected temperature sensor or over temperature. There is a system imposed whereas if the OWB is calling for heat and over time, the actual temperature begins to degrade from set point, it is assumed that the system is out of fuel and will stop the draft blower motor and close the solenoid valve, while displaying a message on the display of that affect. Rebuild your fire, press the button and your off again!
It is USB enabled for use with specific software as an option. The i723 will operate completely unassisted/stand alone.
Picture of i723 out of the enclosure. http://www.burnrite.net/images/product_002.jpg There are two 32 MHZ microcontrollers on the back side of the assembly which talk to one another using a protocol, they are optically isolated for safety from the AC voltages while performing the calculations and PID math, gathering temperature and providing information to users via the LCD display, checking for errors and safety function calls to shut the OWB down in the event of disconnected temperature sensor or over temperature. There is a system imposed whereas if the OWB is calling for heat and over time, the actual temperature begins to degrade from set point, it is assumed that the system is out of fuel and will stop the draft blower motor and close the solenoid valve, while displaying a message on the display of that affect. Rebuild your fire, press the button and your off again!
It is USB enabled for use with specific software as an option. The i723 will operate completely unassisted/stand alone.
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 24, 2012, 01:12:13 PM »
Sorry, no guinea pigs required. Only proven, reliable, safe and fully functional products with a real product warranty will be brought to market.
Shawn
Shawn
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 24, 2012, 12:58:10 PM »
At this juncture in time, I do not have a cost analysis complete for the i723 FireStorm. It will be reasonable. Interest and volume do factor in on the cost structure.
Shawn
Shawn
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 24, 2012, 12:51:59 PM »
That site is another green product I have developed and manufacturer. Energy and power conservation for motor fleet installations. Nothing to do with OWB's
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 24, 2012, 12:41:25 PM »
Yes, exactly. The unit is about 6’’ wide, 6” tall and 3” deep. Four wires enter the bottom of the enclosure. Power-IN, Draft-Blower, Solenoid, and the temperature sensor (Thermocouple)wires. Display shows outdoor temperature, water temperature and set point temperature. There are NO relays. Simple button raises set point temperature and another button lowers set point. None of the on temperature and off temperature garbage.
Thanks for the comment/question.
Thanks for the comment/question.
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General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / FireStorm i723 Are people interested in this??
« on: January 24, 2012, 11:52:39 AM »
Fire Storm i723 Status update. It has been about 3 months and a lot of firmware code/development since my last posting about the aftermarket product (FireStorm i723) used to control OWB’s by PID control utilizing varying speed draft motors to maintain “Real” control of your water temperature and the various home heating loads imposed. Bench testing results are excellent! Pre production units look fantastic as well. This is a very promising product which will be affordable and super easy for customer installation. No modifications required from the existing installation. Simply mount the i723 on your stove somewhere you want it, (water tight NEMA polycarbonate enclosure) and attach the POWER-INPUT, DRAFT-INPUT, and SOLENOID-INPUT through the sealed cord-glands into the labeled terminal blocks. That’s it! The i723 uses PWM control synchronized with the AC voltage zero cross point, yielding a base frequency of ~ 120Hz to enable your fixed speed draft motor to operate in infinitely variable speed from zero to full on. Replacing controls that have crude turn-on and turn-off function. I would be happy to provide any additional information for anyone interested. Pre production product picture is available.
Shawn
Shawn
15
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: First fire tonight in my Heatmaster MF5000E!!!
« on: October 25, 2011, 01:21:14 PM »
Wood Burner control update. The preliminary circuit board layout is complete. The circuit board is installed into a NEMA enclosure with a transparent lid / cover, providing visibility of the LCD display which has various information . Programming via computer using USB interface and software. Enclosure is ~ 6” x 6”. There are 4 cord glands/strain reliefs on the bottom of the enclosure where the cables enter and are electrically connected to 4 self contained terminal blocks. Factory or aftermarket type K thermocouple is used to measure boiler water temperature. Type J and others can also be used. The attached PDF will illustrate additional details.
Next: After more review, I will be sending out to have a small prototype run of the bare circuit boards made.
Hopefully in the near future, someone will be interested in testing the product, gathering user feedback to incorporate 1st production run .
Thanks,
Shawn
Next: After more review, I will be sending out to have a small prototype run of the bare circuit boards made.
Hopefully in the near future, someone will be interested in testing the product, gathering user feedback to incorporate 1st production run .
Thanks,
Shawn
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