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1
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Heat exchanger
« on: April 18, 2012, 08:51:24 AM »
Just because it says so in the CB manual doesn't make it right or wrong. That is the problem, people see pictures or read it on the net and think its law. It also says to follow all local and state codes, and to check with the other appliances manufacturer suggestions. There is no cast iron boiler on the market that doesn't void warranty if its ran unpressurized and it doesn't matter what CB approved treatment additive is put in. It has to be approved by both manufacturers. It is also boiler code that the vessel maintains a minimum pressure. Anytime a safety device is bypassed or eliminated it violates code. Also if you read the grundfos,B&G,wilo or taco warranty it does not cover cast pumps in open systems. Doesn't mean that they never have covered one, but thats exactly what their policy is. Thus why you see on some OWB part supply sites bronze and Stainless steel options.
No one said running a 2nd floor can't be done, but if you read the link you would see the problems that "could occur". I don't know about you but if any of these things went in on an install without the customer fully understanding the risks and options, then I can confidently say it was an unqualified installer. These are the very things that give them a bad rap. Anyone here check with the insurance policy, if a problem ever did occur and a forensic engineer has to be called out to find the cause, they can and will void or limit the claim loss of the HO policy if these conditions exist. Or they will go after the installer, and you hope he is licensed and insured. If he's not licensed he can't be held liable for his install, he would be treated as a handyman working under HO direction. So if the boiler does rot out and flood an area , hopefully its limited to less than 10,000 in damage. Each policy is different, but I can assure ,if you have State Farm this is their policy. We cleaned one up last year for SFarm and their remediation contractor was ruthless with expenses on the previous installers dime.
As far as that valve being partially closed, that has no effect on the boiler being pressurized. It is either an open loop or its not. All the installer has to say is you were aware, then its a he said/she said deal in court. If it wasn't inspected by the city then your on the hook. And no inspector would approve that. There are 1000's of jobs done without pulling permits and inspections, I guess that makes them all in good working order and done right too.
If you draw a line between plumbers,pressurized experts( licensed boiler installers), and yourself , its not good for anyone. You will always be ahead when you help each other out. Similar to you posting here, to help someone out. If a city official or inspector just dropped by during your install. Will it help you to argue & complain with him or to listen and discuss things so you both understand each other respectfully. Yes I know there are some that there is no talking to, but you'll never know if you don't try.
No one said running a 2nd floor can't be done, but if you read the link you would see the problems that "could occur". I don't know about you but if any of these things went in on an install without the customer fully understanding the risks and options, then I can confidently say it was an unqualified installer. These are the very things that give them a bad rap. Anyone here check with the insurance policy, if a problem ever did occur and a forensic engineer has to be called out to find the cause, they can and will void or limit the claim loss of the HO policy if these conditions exist. Or they will go after the installer, and you hope he is licensed and insured. If he's not licensed he can't be held liable for his install, he would be treated as a handyman working under HO direction. So if the boiler does rot out and flood an area , hopefully its limited to less than 10,000 in damage. Each policy is different, but I can assure ,if you have State Farm this is their policy. We cleaned one up last year for SFarm and their remediation contractor was ruthless with expenses on the previous installers dime.
As far as that valve being partially closed, that has no effect on the boiler being pressurized. It is either an open loop or its not. All the installer has to say is you were aware, then its a he said/she said deal in court. If it wasn't inspected by the city then your on the hook. And no inspector would approve that. There are 1000's of jobs done without pulling permits and inspections, I guess that makes them all in good working order and done right too.
If you draw a line between plumbers,pressurized experts( licensed boiler installers), and yourself , its not good for anyone. You will always be ahead when you help each other out. Similar to you posting here, to help someone out. If a city official or inspector just dropped by during your install. Will it help you to argue & complain with him or to listen and discuss things so you both understand each other respectfully. Yes I know there are some that there is no talking to, but you'll never know if you don't try.
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Aquastat vs thermastat
« on: April 18, 2012, 08:01:15 AM »
There aren't any pros or cons. You use the correct control for the particular application. The T-stat tells the heating device what parameters to cycle on and off, and the aquastat controls the boilers temperature control functions , or acts as a safety limiting device.
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Heat exchanger
« on: April 15, 2012, 12:33:25 PM »
http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/Magazines/pdf/idronics_10_us.pdf
You can read a good explanation of the effects in this link. Since Caleffi and a few other experts have come across so many simple problems in the OWB world they came out with some nice info and suggestions to help protect the industry. Since the majority of OWB are DIY installed, they should also arm themselves with good info to protect their investment. Anything above the water level can cause boiling, pipe banging, air entering the system from a vacuum or sub atmospheric pressures. Many times the owner/ repair man just reduces the temp because they can't figure out what is going on. There is a chart there with height and pressure changes in the system and vapor pressure & temps to low temp boiling. Plenty of system diagrams for proper design and electronic control wiring. They also have webinars on equipment & design how toos.
This is a perfect example of why the other guy was more expensive, but he should have done a good job explaining why it needs to be done. With the market so tight the last 5+ years, salesmanship and justifying your quote cost is more important than ever. Most OWB customers are going the extra mile to own one of these units and have done "some" research. But all too often they get the majority of their info from one salesman, and have no clue on the important details of safety and performance aspects of the system. How many posts have you read, where they are replacing components or burning way more wood than they should, as a direct result of installation or component issues. Spend it now or spend more later. Sometimes the best customer is a well informed one. Thus understanding why the good guy cost more.
You can read a good explanation of the effects in this link. Since Caleffi and a few other experts have come across so many simple problems in the OWB world they came out with some nice info and suggestions to help protect the industry. Since the majority of OWB are DIY installed, they should also arm themselves with good info to protect their investment. Anything above the water level can cause boiling, pipe banging, air entering the system from a vacuum or sub atmospheric pressures. Many times the owner/ repair man just reduces the temp because they can't figure out what is going on. There is a chart there with height and pressure changes in the system and vapor pressure & temps to low temp boiling. Plenty of system diagrams for proper design and electronic control wiring. They also have webinars on equipment & design how toos.
This is a perfect example of why the other guy was more expensive, but he should have done a good job explaining why it needs to be done. With the market so tight the last 5+ years, salesmanship and justifying your quote cost is more important than ever. Most OWB customers are going the extra mile to own one of these units and have done "some" research. But all too often they get the majority of their info from one salesman, and have no clue on the important details of safety and performance aspects of the system. How many posts have you read, where they are replacing components or burning way more wood than they should, as a direct result of installation or component issues. Spend it now or spend more later. Sometimes the best customer is a well informed one. Thus understanding why the good guy cost more.
4
Empyre / Re: how are things running
« on: April 14, 2012, 10:14:10 AM »I was just told today that they are not even selling 100 series in my area of Michigan (lower upper part)! It will not keep up in the cold weather. THought that was a little strange but I am shopping around for a new stove. Not sure if it worth the extra cost! It really seems like a really good stove though but was also told it would not be good to run in the summer time to heat my hot water and spa only.
Thats too bad, but it sounds like you spoke with a biased informant. They are very good units, I wouldn't be afraid to say in the top 10. The unit is only as good as the design or installer is. They can handle alot.
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Heat exchanger
« on: April 14, 2012, 10:04:36 AM »
Any time an "installer" voids another appliances warranty is wrong, I don't care of the heat exchange advantages. Its unethical. If there is a 10-15 degree loss of exchange then he did it wrong. Use the correct HX. All too often OWB design is compromised by the seller or installer for fear of loosing the job because of the increased expense to do the job right. We do many pasteurizers and they require large plate exchangers to maintain temps for health saftey. If thats what is needed to do the job right then this needs to be explained thoroughly to the customer. Instead his oil boiler with a 30 year warranty is void, so too are all the pumps unless they are bronze or stainless. Same goes for the cheap underground supply pipes, cheap it out to get the job. Its sux loosing a job but atleast you know your work is right and your workmanship is covered by your insurance policy and most important your customers interest and investment is covered as well. Insurance does not cover non code compliant work, same as manufacturer's warranties. If you read some boilers I&O manuals they state must be installed by licensed or qualified installer. It always cost more up front to do it the right way, but it saves you soooo much in the long run, not to mention peace of mind. Some of those OWB treatments are not for cast iron boilers, only the manufacturer can tell you this. Just like the boiler seal voids all indoor boiler warranties. I have never seen a well informed customer say , "yes I want to void my boilers warranty by cheaping out on some components." or " well if you just use this much less expensive underground pipe you can save half the money, but you will have to burn twice as much wood, and you might have a soggy puddle in your yard, and your OWB will have a hard time suppling anything over 160* to your house. But you will save lots of money on the pipe". There is nothing cheap about hydronic heating except for long term cost when done right. Anytime somebody does something like this, only gives the wood fuel industry a bad name. The industry needs to protect itself. By the way are there any zones located above the water level of the OWB, like a second floor?
6
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Still looking for idea's
« on: April 14, 2012, 09:30:41 AM »
The only way to do it without electricity is convection. Expense is little. A roll of 3/8 pex is 20 bucks. The hardest thing is finding the correct velocity. Since he is just trying to keep it from freezing there is not a big temp change. Even if he gets it up to 40 degrees. By using pex he doesn't risk bursting. The standby losses alone from the owb would do the job, if there was an easy way to harness it.
7
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Antifreeze
« on: April 14, 2012, 09:19:41 AM »
What the physics exactly are, I couldn't tell you exactly. But after many many repairs of frozen pipes, it is what is always is...... I have had boiler zones freeze while no other pipe near it froze. The last one was an occupied home at 68 degrees, 2nd floor fin tube on the outside wall froze solid, split and made a mess. Within 2 feet were the bathroom pipes just fine running in the same area. Even when they were insulated, many a dishwasher lines frozen this year, yank off the insul and everything is fine. You only have to have 1 square centimeter of exposed pipe to freeze the whole thing, common find on the 1/2" cap on an air chamber being exposed. Obviously if water is moving its not going to freeze. Its something to do with phase change and the required energy exchange is less. Just ask any plumber which he repairs most.
8
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Heat exchanger
« on: April 12, 2012, 11:57:32 AM »It depends on your system if it is a good idea to use a heat exchanger or just plumb direct. If your indoor system is under warranty you would most likely void it completely by depressurizing it.exactly, also it adds lots of fresh oxygenated water to the boiler, which speeds up the cast iron heat exchanger corrosion in the house boiler, so 8-15 years before they go. You can't use air vents on anything above the OWB water line also. This also voids most pump warranties as well. Its never a good idea to convert a pressurized vessel to an open loop system.
Also, depending on how it is setup it may cause it to not work quite right.
Plumbing it in direct has some advantages. It will save you about $500 and possibly have one less pump burning electricity.
9
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Antifreeze
« on: April 12, 2012, 11:46:35 AM »
Glycol is more corrosive, much more. It transfers less btu's and requires a larger pump. All negatives, it voids some manufacturers warranties as well. Some people install a small 007 pump to run when the system is down and its below freezing, this is not for long periods of time tho, just temporary safety. If something is freezing then something needs more protection. Stagnate Hot water always freezes faster than cold water.
10
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Still looking for idea's
« on: April 12, 2012, 11:38:21 AM »
Can you design a gravity type setup. 3/8" pipe would keep the velocity high enough to keep from freezing and also not give off so many btu that the water gets too hot. it would be a trial and error test. I would use all pex, just incase it does freeze, it won't burst and it will also keep the transfer down. Cheap too, no pumps necessary, and if it does need a pump a cheap recirc pump with timer or aquastat or both would work then use 1/2". The pipes just have to have grade, not pitch to work. We have done this with towel warmers, a 2nd floor bedroom and a 40 gallon electric water heater that works very good. no pumps at all. just a balancing valve on the bedroom. Insulate pipes of course.
11
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: First OWB purchase
« on: April 12, 2012, 11:28:02 AM »
You can always add storage to cover more square feet. A buffer tank can be sized to cover any size need you want to heat. IF a 150 kbtu unit can heat 5000sqft, then with proper design that unit can handle what you have.
12
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: purchase new owb... what are considered the top 3?
« on: April 12, 2012, 11:15:16 AM »
Top 3 OWB's
Portage & Main
Garn
Central?
Portage & Main
Garn
Central?
13
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Shut down OWF for the Season
« on: March 24, 2012, 09:31:42 PM »I also put a timer on my pumps so they run about 30min a day just to keep things mixed up and keep the pumps from sitting all summer. I don't know if it is really necessary but for the little bit of electric it takes to run the pumps, it seems like a good idea to keep things mixed up and ready to go.
This is a very good idea, but 10 minutes once a month is fine. There are boiler controls that do this specifically, to prevent corrosion from locking up the impeller. I am very surprised there aren't more posts and advise from installers/sales to this topic. I would follow manufacturers I&O manual to the tee, to maintain your warranty. It helps to have a log book of this, so there are no questions if something ever arises. Air & steel don't play well together.
14
Plumbing / Re: insulated pex
« on: March 24, 2012, 09:54:14 AM »
If all the data is accurate according to their website, then yes this appears to be a very good pipe. I don't know if I would ever choose the 4 pipe version tho. The important data is in the chart that shows gpm/water temp/temp differential/feet. That is the important spec info when comparing different brands. I have seen one test where they shoved 25gpm thru at over 30' per second, and of course the temp loss was little. As soon as you slowed it down to 4gpm the loss went up 14 degrees over the same 100' of pipe. Then there was a test where they didn't put 170-180 degree water thru and it was under summertime ambient temps. They had 5gpm or less flow but not boiler like temp conditions. A thermal imager inspection would see whats going on, but you almost never see those images.
15
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: It will make a difference!!!!!!!!!
« on: March 18, 2012, 08:56:26 PM »
Hey, stop it. You keep cutting into the power companies revenue and they are gonna have to make it up somehow. Like raising the cost per KW, like they have with water and NG this year. Nice job, seeing the ROI is always the best reward.