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1

Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: January 05, 2017, 12:52:22 PM »

I would also be interested

It'll probably be around a month before I have the prototype running, but I'll definitely post an update when I do.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: January 03, 2017, 12:00:05 PM »

Still gassing well I assume?

Crazy well, yeah. Not having to babysit the wood boiler is a new concept...  Last year I hooked up a 120V blue LED inline with the fan wiring and mounted it on the front of the stove, so I could look out at night to see if it was running. Before this last round of mods, it seemed like that was on 75% of the time, now it's about 10%.  Might have to get a second job with all this extra time on my hands.

Actually, with the spare time, I've been working with a friend in building a microprocessor, wifi-based boiler monitor. It monitors supply water temp, fan on/off time, ambient outdoor temp and and return water temp. If the supply water temp goes below a certain value, it will send a text alert, and it will chart the temps, running times, wood load times, wood quality, etc. via a webpage. Should be a nice tool for evaluating how well things are running. If anyone's interested, I can post some more info on it when we get the prototype finished.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 28, 2016, 11:42:57 AM »

I think your going to really like the pm when you dial it in the way it is suppose to be.

Just had a 16 hour burn time! Loaded it about half full last night with a mixture of elm and cedar. That same wood would have yielded 8 or 9 hours before and a lot more ash. It's a completely different stove now.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 27, 2016, 04:37:49 PM »

Awesome! I'm sure you are really excited. How many gallons in it? I know my g200 when it has a good coal bed and a good wood load in it can run 160-180 in about 20 mins  and sometimes faster heating up 200 gallons. When it is gassing so so because of either end of wood load or wood load not sitting down well on coal bed it sometimes can take 30-40 mins to make that same run.

Yeah, very excited! Seems to be much less ash and I think the creosote collecting in the upper tubes burned out today. Pretty sure mine is 240 gallons. The G 200 looks like a really nice stove.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 27, 2016, 12:12:52 PM »

Any more progress on this? Can anyone else with a 250 post the nozzle dimensions and the dimensions of the secondary nozzle size?

Yep, did some more work to make it breathe better through the nozzle as SlimJim suggested. By itself, that helped a fair amount. I also added a couple of steel pipes along the side of the firebox to help keep wood from blocking the primary air supplies.

In looking online at the new O 250 design and other gassers, I noticed that they all had firebrick very close to the secondary burn area, within inches of it in most cases. I built a C-Channel with 2" firebrick around the sides of the area where the blowtorch fires and added a 1" firebrick directly below it. My thinking here is that the firebrick getting hot and holding the heat should help ignite the gasses. This helped immensely, coupled with the more free breathing nozzle.

The last thing I tried was this morning. I removed the discs limiting the primary air flow completely. It still seemed to me that the fire in the firebox still needed more air. I played with the secondary air supply (to the nozzle area) and found that it runs best with a very small amount of air flowing there (around 1/8" of the disc open).

With all that, the results were outstanding today! I ran a mixture of cedar and elm (definitely not the best wood) and started with just a few coals around 11:00am, stove was at 179 degrees. By 12:15 it hit the set point of 195. That is the fastest I have ever had it make temp, AND - it did this with both zones in the house calling for heat the entire time! Outside temp is about 20 degrees. I checked the reaction chamber two or three times during the burn time and the blow torch was going steadily.

HUGE thanks to you, Coolidge, SlimJim and RSI for all of the suggestions and sharing your knowledge! 

Here are the pics of the re-revised steel nozzle. SlimJim, I didn't have time to line the bottom of the firebox as you suggested yet, but opening up the nozzle as you recommended was key. I will get around to lining the firebox with the 1" brick in the next month or so, but for now, life with the boiler is good.  

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 23, 2016, 10:04:08 AM »

You can see them here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WJns8SpQ88&list=FLYi_x_JqO5WMspfXizOU4Vg#

Nice... I waaaaant that!   Do you have any pictures of the nozzle from the top side or out of the stove?

I noticed some other differences too. Looks like yours has firebrick standing vertically on the outside edges of the reaction chamber. Is that right?  Also looks like there's a raised firebrick directly under the nozzle. Is that fixed or movable?

Thanks!

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 23, 2016, 09:55:58 AM »

I don't know why it wouldn't post before but here is that drawing again

I always wondered why there wasn't any firebrick in the bottom of the firebox of this stove. I will pick the brick up and get started on that in a day or two.

Again, muchas gracias!

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 23, 2016, 09:50:10 AM »

You said that you are getting a secondary burning for 4x longer now, how long is that? Have you tried quality hardwood yet?

My record last night for secondary burn was around 10 minutes, but again that wasn't with quality wood. Today I'll feed it the good stuff. I'm sure that will help.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 23, 2016, 09:47:39 AM »

I have been following the thread and have some ideas but they are going in the opposite direction of where you have been going, here is my advice.
First in the reaction chamber, the early models, before EPA approval there were two rows of brick standing vertically and running lengthwise, they were intended to create a channel that directed the gasses first forward toward the door then they passed to the outside and then back to the rear of the reaction chamber, it was much like the design of the Seqouyah Paradise E 3300 and 3400 models, it seemed like a good idea at the time but after running one of the early models ( not as early as yours ) for a short time, I had an idea that the channels were restricting air flow and impinging on the secondary burn flame, this idea actually comes from the oil and gas industry, flame impingement on any oil or gas burner always makes for a dirty burn. I removed all the brick in the reaction chamber and then replaced what I needed by cutting some and laying them flat, I think the chamber was about 14 inches wide so an 8 inch brick and then a cut 6 inch brick would run across the bottom, 2 inches high and 4 inch front to back, repeat this until you have covered the entire bottom of the reaction chamber. This opens up the chamber for far less impingement as well as making it far easier to clean behind the original passages.
Nozzle, I feel you are headed entirely in the wrong direction here, you may have noticed that most of my customers have tried and are now using a nozzle that Karl K builds, he and I discussed the design of that nozzle as the one that P&M made was constantly plugging up with ash, we opened it up to about 3/4 inch wide and the full length, I think that was about 10 inches long, then we gouged 6 channels, 3 on each side about 1/2 inch wide at a 45 degree angle to allow more air at a slower velocity through the nozzle, after replacing nozzles with my customers, the comments that I got were, wow that thing just came to life and it doesn't plug anymore, there are several of those folks on here and I'm pretty sure that they will chime in!
This of course is sort of mute for you as your design is completely different, my suggestion for you would be to get rid of the metal nozzle and lay another layer of brick in the bottom of your primary firebox, start from the center creating your own nozzle by simply leaving a space between the bricks about 3/4 inch wide and the length of a brick then work your way to the outside filling the entire base with 1 layer of 1 inch brick, Coolidge actually did this with his old unit and perhaps he may have a picture of it somewhere.
I will make a crude attempt to draw a picture of the retrofit but I'm not an artist so don't expect much.

Hi Jim,
Funny... I did exactly what you described before this burning season. Took a 9" angle grinder with a masonry cutting wheel and sliced off the "C" channel, leaving the firebrick flat. WAY easier to clean now! Whether or not it helped it breathe better, I can't say yet.

I messed with tuning it and thought I had it dialed in last night around midnight. Got up this morning to find it at 133 degrees. (palm, forehead - forehead, palm) Turns out it does prefer a reasonable air flow in the secondary tube. It's gaining temp this morning at about 3-4 degrees per hour. No flame in the secondary, just a chuffing sound about every second, but not a ton of smoke in the firebox either, so I think it's burning the wood gasses, but more so in the main firebox than where it should be.

I've verified all air passages are open, but to my way of thinking, it's still acting as if there's some kind of blockage. Reading your explanation of your and Karl's nozzle design make more sense than ever now. I looked on the forum for a picture of one, as I read a lot of posts saying how well they work, but couldn't seem to find one. Sounds like I did go the wrong way in making the nozzle more restrictive, when what I should've done was to open it up more. I like the fire brick nozzle replacement idea! That should be fairly easy.

Thanks very much for the advice! There might be hope for this old beast yet.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 23, 2016, 12:02:38 AM »

How many holes on those outside rails? Looks like some might be plugged.

5 holes on each side. I make sure they're open with each morning fill. Poor spot for air delivery... Of course this particular unit was a prototype and that design was scrapped in the production models. I believe they made a channel that runs up the back of the firebox and delivers the air much higher up. It may be a while before I get around to making *that* modification, but that could be at least a partial cause of the poor secondary combustion. I expect that air delivered above the fire would persuade the smoke/wood gasses to be pushed down through the nozzle better than having it delivered much lower.  Just curious, where is the primary air delivered on the G200?

I did a lot of trial and error testing tonight. I was mostly burning split cedar again, which thanks to HondaRacer I now understand is way low on the list of quality woods, but I figured if I tested with crap wood, things would only improve with the good stuff. With the primary air discs set about 1/4" open I played with the secondary and fan speed. Having the fan at full to half speed didn't make too much of a difference, but I did get slightly longer active burn times in the reaction chamber running the blower full bore. Next, I opened up the air box and set the primary discs open a lot farther, about an inch each, as the fire still seemed starved for air. Burn times in the reaction chamber increased 2X. Started playing around with the secondary air supply again and found that with it closed off as much as possible, burn times were significantly longer, around 4X.

I learned that tuning it by ear seemed to work the best. I open the main firebox and get a strong fire burning with good hot coals, then close it up, go around back and open the clean-out door for the vertical tubes and 1st set of horizontals. From there you can hear the jet engine sound of the secondary burn. By adjusting the secondary air supply and changing the fan speed I was able to tune it to where I thought it sounded best and lasted the longest.

I'm hoping someone that knows the Optimizer well can help me understand a couple of strange sounds that it makes sometimes. The first is a chuffing sound, kind of like an old locomotive, but faster. The other is a low whistling sound, like blowing over the top of a beer bottle if it had a 4" opening.

Thanks!

11

Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 22, 2016, 12:55:29 PM »

Can you turn that steel plate sideways and use the middle slot as a makeshift nozzle? You will have to block of the other slots and any other openings.

Unfortunately the plate isn't exactly square, so no, I can't reorient it. I did a redesign of the nozzle this am. Just fired it back up and crossing my fingers now. I cut out the cross bars that ran sideways and installed 5/8" steel in place with about a 5/8" slot roughly 4" long running vertically. Would have liked to have run a 1/2" x 6" slot, but the space wasn't long enough to allow, so I made it the max it allowed, 4" and opened the slot up a little to 5/8". I also lightly welded the previous cut out bar pieces on the underside of the newly welded in plate. My thinking there is that the more heat that the steel can hold, the better the chance of burning the gasses. And they were just lying there...

Here are the pics of the redesign.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 21, 2016, 03:01:44 PM »

If you get that much smoke there s a restriction somewhere. Do you have turbulators?  Can you take a video of reaction chamber?

Thanks Coolidge. No turbulators in this one. I generally clean the vertical and horizontal pipes with a wire brush once a week. I've noticed that the first row of horizontal tubes get finely burned ash as you'd expect, but the upper set are getting more creosote than ash.  I'll take a short video of the reaction chamber in a day or two and it may take a few days before I get to the nozzle change, but I'll give that a shot too.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 21, 2016, 02:37:56 PM »

I just looked up cedar. It is the lowest btu content if any wood and it's a softwood. I think the majority of your issues lie with this. Get some quality seasoned hardwood, maple or something and give that a try. I think that may get you on track.

Hmmm... I've burned cedar in the fireplace for years and it worked well, but a fireplace and a gasser (I'm finding out) are two different beasts.   I have a fair amount of red and white oak that I have drying for next year. I'm almost through the cedar supply for this year and then it'll be mostly elm and some birch for the remainder of this season.

Generally when I open the firebox, I'll so a whole lot of smoke for the first 10-20 seconds. I see quite a lot of smoke coming out of the stack most of the time too. I notice when it's running well that the amount of smoke coming out of the stack is reduced and it dissipates into the air quicker.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 21, 2016, 11:35:50 AM »

Any difference today?

Had some time to play with it this morning. Adding the variable speed control helped a lot - at least for testing. Started with a good bed of coals and loaded split dry cedar on top of the nozzle, packed tight. Added some heavier (probably higher moisture) split birch on top of that. Played with the fan and the only way I could get a flame in the reaction chamber was if I slowed the fan to about 1/5 of top speed. The flame was weak at that point, but consistent. Turning the fan up would make the flame go out, but the sound of rushing air was stronger.  I let it run with the weak flame for about an hour and it lost about 3 degrees overall. Turned the fan back up to 3/4 speed and checked again in an hour and it had gained 6.

With the fan blowing hard, I am gaining temp, but slowly. Could it be that it's burning the wood gases in the main firebox and not in the reaction chamber? It also makes me wonder if the nozzle design on this prototype is somehow too free flowing. The newer models all seem to have more restricted designs.  I have some 1/4" steel plate that I might cut a slit in and lay it over the existing nozzle as a test.

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Portage & Main / Re: Year 2 with an early Optimizer 250 prototype

« on: December 19, 2016, 08:54:49 PM »

You restricted the primary air down and you still get a roaring fire in the firebox? What's your coal bed like?

After today's changes I'll have to keep an eye on it for a few days to know the full effect. I've turned the blower down by approximately 50% now. Got home tonight and the coal bed was good, but it had bridged 6-8" above the nozzle, so no secondary burn going on. As soon as I broke down the bridge and added some more dry split wood, gasification started right away and kept going for 10+ minutes while I watched it (and hopefully beyond that). Progress!!