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1
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Questions about efficiency
« on: July 01, 2015, 01:12:58 PM »
Thanks everyone for your replies already! This is what makes this site so invaluable to a "do-it-yourselfer, and sometimes twice"-er like me!
Slim, any suggestions on what size circulator on the OWF side? I will work on getting a picture tonight when I get home and getting it posted. When you say the near boiler, you mean the OWF plumbing? Just don't want to waste time with the wrong stuff!
Would a bigger circ pump require bigger pipes too, or would 1 inch pipes be sufficient?
Thanks again everyone! I appreciate it!
Slim, any suggestions on what size circulator on the OWF side? I will work on getting a picture tonight when I get home and getting it posted. When you say the near boiler, you mean the OWF plumbing? Just don't want to waste time with the wrong stuff!
Would a bigger circ pump require bigger pipes too, or would 1 inch pipes be sufficient?
Thanks again everyone! I appreciate it!
2
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: Questions about efficiency
« on: July 01, 2015, 01:09:52 PM »Are the water flows from the owb and the indoor boiler flowing in opposite direction or the same direction through the exchanger?
They run in opposite directions. That's why I am so surprised that the temps aren't closer than 40 degrees.
3
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Questions about efficiency
« on: June 30, 2015, 10:32:52 AM »
Hi All, some time ago I posted a few questions about the efficiency (or lack thereof) of my unit and got many useful responses and I am preparing to make some changes this summer and wanted to once again beg for the assistance of the many years of expertise on the forum.
I'm in western PA, and last winter was a cold one..in the coldest of the cold, I noticed that no matter how much wood I burnt through, I couldn't keep up, so I started some testing. First I measured the supply and return water temps at the furnace with inline thermostats - the delta T seemed to go between 18 - 24 degrees under load and was less than 4 when the house wasn't calling for heat.
I moved the thermostat inside right above the heat exchanger and measured the incoming temp at the heat exchanger, it was within 2 degrees of the supply line - so I know I'm getting the hot water into the house.
This is where the trouble seems to exist. I'm getting 180 degree water into the heat exchanger from the boiler, and I'm running about a 20 degree change by the time the water gets back out. But the internal system (a pressurized boiler system) is only getting water temperatures up to about 140 degrees.
So, the problem....180 degree water from the OWF, 140 degree water in the house - not keeping the house warm in the real cold weather.
A couple facts about my set-up:
I have a grundfos 15-58 variable speed pump;
My run is about 210 feet into the house;
I have a 40 plate heat exchanger plumbed above the hot water tank with 1 inch ports
I have a 90 plate heat exchanger plumbed to the boiler with 1 1/4 inch ports.
The inside boiler system is a pressurized system with 4 zones. The pump (BG Gossett) runs only when one (or more) of the zones calls for heat.
I've come up with two possible solutions, and would appreciate any input, thoughts, suggestions.
1. My heat exchanger has 1 1/4 inch ports, but my supply return lines from the OWF are 1 inch. The internal side is 1 1/4 inch supply/return. One thought is to run a 1 1/4 inch line from the OWF to the house, (I have a second pipe buried with a rope already in the ground, so I should be able to fish the line through, hopefully) and run both 1 inch lines as 'supply' lines through the house and into the heat exchanger and then run one line (1 1/4) back to the furnace as a return - increasing the water flow from the furnace. (I read somewhere that two 1 inch lines flow just slightly more water than one 1 1/4 inch line...).
My questions with respect to this approach are: Can I run two 1 inch lines as supplies off a single pump and through a simple manifold system? Will the increase in water supply really help? Is a grundfos 15-58 variable speed pump going to be sufficient for water flow?
2. Create a 'circulation loop' on the internal boiler side and have the pump run 100% of the time instead of only when the zones call for heat.
A few questions with this option though: Do I need to have a large circulator loop, or even a buffer tank in order to make the operation efficient? Will a simple tie-in of the supply and return lines outside the heat exchanger create sufficient circulation? Should I have the circulation loop running at 1 1/4 inch, or neck it down to a 1 inch connector that way when the zones call for heat they will get the better flow of hot water and the circulator will continue to mix with return water?
Is there anything I'm missing, am I overshooting the target with my ideas/options, or am I still way behind the 8-ball?
My thoughts are that if I increase water flow from the OWF then I should realize better efficiency on a purely volume of water basis, and if I run a circulator loop on the inside of the boiler, then the return water will be mixing with hot water before entering the heat exchanger, which will make my need for additional heat out of the exchanger decrease, improving my efficiency.
The final question is....do I need to do BOTH options 1 and 2? Would just option 2 be sufficient? It seems, although I can't seem to find GOOD schematics on how to properly set up the inside of the house with a water to water heat exchanger, that I need a circulation loop inside ...
I, of course, bought my unit used, installed it myself, and have been tinkering with it to get it right ever since!
I am sorry for the long post, and anyone who has any thoughts or suggestions I would be more than happy to hear them. If anyone has any questions, I'll gladly answer them!
Thank you
I'm in western PA, and last winter was a cold one..in the coldest of the cold, I noticed that no matter how much wood I burnt through, I couldn't keep up, so I started some testing. First I measured the supply and return water temps at the furnace with inline thermostats - the delta T seemed to go between 18 - 24 degrees under load and was less than 4 when the house wasn't calling for heat.
I moved the thermostat inside right above the heat exchanger and measured the incoming temp at the heat exchanger, it was within 2 degrees of the supply line - so I know I'm getting the hot water into the house.
This is where the trouble seems to exist. I'm getting 180 degree water into the heat exchanger from the boiler, and I'm running about a 20 degree change by the time the water gets back out. But the internal system (a pressurized boiler system) is only getting water temperatures up to about 140 degrees.
So, the problem....180 degree water from the OWF, 140 degree water in the house - not keeping the house warm in the real cold weather.
A couple facts about my set-up:
I have a grundfos 15-58 variable speed pump;
My run is about 210 feet into the house;
I have a 40 plate heat exchanger plumbed above the hot water tank with 1 inch ports
I have a 90 plate heat exchanger plumbed to the boiler with 1 1/4 inch ports.
The inside boiler system is a pressurized system with 4 zones. The pump (BG Gossett) runs only when one (or more) of the zones calls for heat.
I've come up with two possible solutions, and would appreciate any input, thoughts, suggestions.
1. My heat exchanger has 1 1/4 inch ports, but my supply return lines from the OWF are 1 inch. The internal side is 1 1/4 inch supply/return. One thought is to run a 1 1/4 inch line from the OWF to the house, (I have a second pipe buried with a rope already in the ground, so I should be able to fish the line through, hopefully) and run both 1 inch lines as 'supply' lines through the house and into the heat exchanger and then run one line (1 1/4) back to the furnace as a return - increasing the water flow from the furnace. (I read somewhere that two 1 inch lines flow just slightly more water than one 1 1/4 inch line...).
My questions with respect to this approach are: Can I run two 1 inch lines as supplies off a single pump and through a simple manifold system? Will the increase in water supply really help? Is a grundfos 15-58 variable speed pump going to be sufficient for water flow?
2. Create a 'circulation loop' on the internal boiler side and have the pump run 100% of the time instead of only when the zones call for heat.
A few questions with this option though: Do I need to have a large circulator loop, or even a buffer tank in order to make the operation efficient? Will a simple tie-in of the supply and return lines outside the heat exchanger create sufficient circulation? Should I have the circulation loop running at 1 1/4 inch, or neck it down to a 1 inch connector that way when the zones call for heat they will get the better flow of hot water and the circulator will continue to mix with return water?
Is there anything I'm missing, am I overshooting the target with my ideas/options, or am I still way behind the 8-ball?
My thoughts are that if I increase water flow from the OWF then I should realize better efficiency on a purely volume of water basis, and if I run a circulator loop on the inside of the boiler, then the return water will be mixing with hot water before entering the heat exchanger, which will make my need for additional heat out of the exchanger decrease, improving my efficiency.
The final question is....do I need to do BOTH options 1 and 2? Would just option 2 be sufficient? It seems, although I can't seem to find GOOD schematics on how to properly set up the inside of the house with a water to water heat exchanger, that I need a circulation loop inside ...
I, of course, bought my unit used, installed it myself, and have been tinkering with it to get it right ever since!
I am sorry for the long post, and anyone who has any thoughts or suggestions I would be more than happy to hear them. If anyone has any questions, I'll gladly answer them!
Thank you
4
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: At my wits' end....Any help appreciated!
« on: March 11, 2014, 07:29:28 AM »
Just thought I'd throw a quick update on here and thank you all again. I've been tinkering with the furnace again and think I'm getting close to efficient. After reading all your comments and checking off the things I could check off, I spent some time researching the problems with the Shaver furnace design mentioned earlier by Honda. I think that my furnace might suffer the same problem as some of the shaver furnaces so I plumbed my return line (temporarily) directly into the fill spout on the top of the furnace and far away from the aquastat and supply line. Almost immediately I was able to get the water above the pump to within 5 degrees of the aquastat. Now I just have to figure out the best way to permanently return the water to the front of the furnace.
Thanks again everyone. I have a feeling this is going to save me a lot of headaches and backaches when I start burning much less wood! Thanks again.
Thanks again everyone. I have a feeling this is going to save me a lot of headaches and backaches when I start burning much less wood! Thanks again.
5
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / Re: At my wits' end....Any help appreciated!
« on: March 03, 2014, 03:20:37 PM »
Thanks for the quick replies!
Slim, I moved the return line further away from the supply line this weekend and am still having the problem. My return line now enters at the bottom of the furnace and the supply line is close to the top whereas before the two lines were close together and my thought was that the cold return water was mixing with the hot water right at the supply, but moving the return line doesn't seem to have helped. Maybe reversing the lines would still help though?
Honda, I'm interested in this design flaw of the Shaver furnaces and wondering if that could be part of my problem. Unfortunately, Freedom doesnt make furnaces anymore and so I don't know much about (nor can I find out much about) the internal design of the stove. If there is a plate on the back of the furnace it might be causing the water at the back of the furnace to stay cooler than the front, but my aquastat is in the back also, so I would think that it would effect that also.
ITO, I thought that perhaps the aquastat was faulty, so I checked the water in the tank against the settings on the aquastat and it seems to be reading accurately.
Is there a "simple fix" that anyone knows of if I do suffer the same design flaw as the shaver system?
Thanks again for the quick replies and if more information from me would be helpful, please let me know. You guys are awesome.
Slim, I moved the return line further away from the supply line this weekend and am still having the problem. My return line now enters at the bottom of the furnace and the supply line is close to the top whereas before the two lines were close together and my thought was that the cold return water was mixing with the hot water right at the supply, but moving the return line doesn't seem to have helped. Maybe reversing the lines would still help though?
Honda, I'm interested in this design flaw of the Shaver furnaces and wondering if that could be part of my problem. Unfortunately, Freedom doesnt make furnaces anymore and so I don't know much about (nor can I find out much about) the internal design of the stove. If there is a plate on the back of the furnace it might be causing the water at the back of the furnace to stay cooler than the front, but my aquastat is in the back also, so I would think that it would effect that also.
ITO, I thought that perhaps the aquastat was faulty, so I checked the water in the tank against the settings on the aquastat and it seems to be reading accurately.
Is there a "simple fix" that anyone knows of if I do suffer the same design flaw as the shaver system?
Thanks again for the quick replies and if more information from me would be helpful, please let me know. You guys are awesome.
6
General Outdoor Furnace Discussion / At my wits' end....Any help appreciated!
« on: March 03, 2014, 07:21:42 AM »
Hi All, I've been reading this forum for great advice and help in setting up my furnace and trying to reach maximum efficiency, but I've reached my wits' end and have no idea what else to try.
Here's my problem. I have water heated to 175 degrees in my furnace, and at the supply line immediately outside my furnace the water is measuring only about 155 or 158 degrees... This is water that I'm checking as soon as it comes out of the furnace and even before it goes through the pump. I have a small drain installed on the plumbing above the pump and I pull some water from it and get readings that are sometimes 20 degrees less than the water inside my furnace.
The way I'm testing the water is with a long probe thermometer that I drop down into the water jacket through the fill spout on top of the furnace. I then pull water out of the 'drain' above my pump into a cup where I use the same thermometer to measure and get a change of 15-20 degrees.
The furnace is about 220 feet from my house, and, being a newbie who decided to do the entire install himself, I don't have any way of getting water out of the system inside the house to check the temperature, but I do have a copper sidearm heat exchanger on my hot water tank that I can get a reading on with an instant read thermometer and I seem to be getting about a 2 or 3 degree drop between the water that's actually coming out of the furnace and the water in the house.
I have a Grundfos UPS26-99FC, 3-Speed Circulator Pump (which is brand new - I just replaced a Taco 009 pump to try and get the numbers up) pushing water through 1" pex. The Furnace itself is a "Freedom Eliminator 4800" dual fuel furnace.
If anyone has any ideas what could be causing me to be getting such a change from the water to the supply line, I'd very much appreciate any thoughts!
I bought my furnace used, and installed it myself by copying the set up of the prior owner. After reading page after page of information on this site, I've discovered that his set up wasn't quite right for my needs (I have the furnace about 3 times as far away from the house as he had it) and so, thanks to the wealth of information on this site, I've increased my efficiency some, but this last piece seems to be the most important. If I could get 180 degree water into the pump, I could get it into the house, but unfortunately, so far I can't do it. Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance.
Here's my problem. I have water heated to 175 degrees in my furnace, and at the supply line immediately outside my furnace the water is measuring only about 155 or 158 degrees... This is water that I'm checking as soon as it comes out of the furnace and even before it goes through the pump. I have a small drain installed on the plumbing above the pump and I pull some water from it and get readings that are sometimes 20 degrees less than the water inside my furnace.
The way I'm testing the water is with a long probe thermometer that I drop down into the water jacket through the fill spout on top of the furnace. I then pull water out of the 'drain' above my pump into a cup where I use the same thermometer to measure and get a change of 15-20 degrees.
The furnace is about 220 feet from my house, and, being a newbie who decided to do the entire install himself, I don't have any way of getting water out of the system inside the house to check the temperature, but I do have a copper sidearm heat exchanger on my hot water tank that I can get a reading on with an instant read thermometer and I seem to be getting about a 2 or 3 degree drop between the water that's actually coming out of the furnace and the water in the house.
I have a Grundfos UPS26-99FC, 3-Speed Circulator Pump (which is brand new - I just replaced a Taco 009 pump to try and get the numbers up) pushing water through 1" pex. The Furnace itself is a "Freedom Eliminator 4800" dual fuel furnace.
If anyone has any ideas what could be causing me to be getting such a change from the water to the supply line, I'd very much appreciate any thoughts!
I bought my furnace used, and installed it myself by copying the set up of the prior owner. After reading page after page of information on this site, I've discovered that his set up wasn't quite right for my needs (I have the furnace about 3 times as far away from the house as he had it) and so, thanks to the wealth of information on this site, I've increased my efficiency some, but this last piece seems to be the most important. If I could get 180 degree water into the pump, I could get it into the house, but unfortunately, so far I can't do it. Any help is appreciated!
Thanks in advance.
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