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[plumbers crack]

I want to put in a pro series 400. The only problem I see is that where it needs to go is 210ft from HX to boiler (one way) and there's around 10-15ft of head on the boiler.

Does anyone else have a install this extreme?

[RSI]

I am not sure if I am reading this right but are you saying that the heat exchanger will be 14' higher than the stove? If so, that is not what head pressure is. The returning water will pull the supply and the height will make little difference. (once the air is all out)
Head pressure is the amount of restriction in the pipe, fittings, HX, etc
Using larger pipe will give you less head pressure.
210' shouldn't be that big of a deal but you might want to consider going with an Armstrong E9 Pump or Taco 2400-20-WB.

[plumbers crack]

I figured that siphon from the return would make the head pressure non existent.

Looking at those two pumps graphs, there not going to match my head loss. The head loss is 57ft and gpm is 17 for what I need using 1 1/4 line set. Would using 1 1/2 or 2" cause any ill affects aside from lowering my head loss?

Should I put checks at the boiler or just leave the ball valves, just remember to close them if the system gets opened. I don't want to add to the head loss.

[RSI]

How are you calculating the 57' of head pressure? That will take a big pump to get do that. I am not even sure what you would use. Even a Taco 2400-50 you would have to get down to 44' head for 17gpm. I definitely would not use a wet rotor pump with that much head loss.
Here is a chart I just found with a web search http://www.alliedpex.com/LITERATURES/PEX_Pressure_Drop_Table.pdf
The only ill effect I know of with the larger pipe is the price and how easy it is to work with. You are going to have to spend around $10-$14 per foot for the cheapest 1-1/2" insulated double pex.  And the fittings aren't cheap either. (~$25 each)

[plumbers crack]

I'm using this to calculate it.
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/SelectingCirculators.pdf

Using that to calculate, 1 1/2" line set would be 26ft of head loss.

I've seen other installs that are longer runs than mine and there still using the same pump that came with the unit or 009 pumps.

[RSI]

It might work but they won't get anywhere close to 17gpm with it. Also if you search here, there have been some people that have had the 009 pumps die multiple times in a short period of time with high head loss. I think the one person went to the 2400-20-wb and hasn't posted of any trouble with it yet. Also the dry rotor type like that are supposedly a lot more efficient. I don't have any test results to prove either way so can't say for sure on that.

[willieG]

i have no real idea about what you need for your application but i can tell you this from mine.....my heating "equipment"...water to air exchanger in the furnace...water to air exchanger in the fire place..water to water exchanger for domestic water..and my infloor heat in my small basement addition are all lower than my OWB. My OWB sits 250 feet (one way) from the house. i have 1 inch pex lines underground and my pump (a taco 0011) is in the basement of the house. this one pump feeds all my "equipment" and has for the past 11 years. when i look up charts and figure head loss...this pump should not be able to do this, but it does! if i shut off all the valves and open jsut one and run it into a bucket i am getting between 6 and 7 gallons per minute. this may be a little low but i have never been starved for heat yet (i am in ontario canada)  i read somewhere on the net that 6 GPM delivered at 175 to 189 degrees will deliver 100,000 BTU per hour with a 20 degree loss on the return line (about normal for an average indoor boiler system)

[RSI]

Yeah, sometimes it seems like the numbers in the charts don't make sense. I know a lot of people run 1" pex 250'+ but have no idea what kind of flow rate they are ending up with. Some people put a pump at both ends too. I would think that would cut the head loss from the pipe in half but don't really know. The biggest problem is the 17 gpm. Is that really needed? If it is you pretty much need to use at least 1.5" pex. If not then 1-1/4" may work.
My brother has a 15-58 pump (about the same size as 007) and over 100' of 1" pex each way and a couple heat exchangers. The shower running can pull all the heat from the boiler line from a 10 plate heat exchanger and he has no trouble heating his house. I am guessing that would mean he has only 3-5 gpm max. I gave him a Taco 0011 to put on instead but I don't think he ever changed it.

[yoderheating]

 I have run more than 300ft with a 20+ rise to the home using 1 inch line and a Wilo 30 pump. Worked like a charm.

[plumbers crack]

The house is 2100 sqft with the basement being equal in size and three exposed walls. Windows are 1985, drafty junk and the insulation in the walls is just single baton with fibre board and brick.

I did the heat loss on my house and it works out to 185 000 btu for the main and basement at 15* outside with a inside temp of 72*, so I used 150 000 for my math which comes out to 16.6 gpm.

I'm now thinking that I should just toss my calculations and wing it because I keep reading about long runs with little pumps and there not having any issues. I just want to make sure that I'm not going to spend $15000 and not heat my brick hovel.

I can scan my heat loss calculations for you guys to see if there's any problems. I'm only a plumber and they did a one day course on heat loss, they don't want me taking others work.

The basics of the system are going to be pro series 400 gasser, 180ft of best pre insulated 1 1/4" pex and a HX in the furnace plenum, I will be adding more later when the money is back in my pocket.

[plumbers crack]

i am in ontario canada

Where?

[RSI]

The house is 2100 sqft with the basement being equal in size and three exposed walls. Windows are 1985, drafty junk and the insulation in the walls is just single baton with fibre board and brick.

I did the heat loss on my house and it works out to 185 000 btu for the main and basement at 15* outside with a inside temp of 72*, so I used 150 000 for my math which comes out to 16.6 gpm.

I'm now thinking that I should just toss my calculations and wing it because I keep reading about long runs with little pumps and there not having any issues. I just want to make sure that I'm not going to spend $15000 and not heat my brick hovel.

I can scan my heat loss calculations for you guys to see if there's any problems. I'm only a plumber and they did a one day course on heat loss, they don't want me taking others work.

The basics of the system are going to be pro series 400 gasser, 180ft of best pre insulated 1 1/4" pex and a HX in the furnace plenum, I will be adding more later when the money is back in my pocket.

185k btu sounds awful high. What size is the gas or oil furnace you have now and how much of the time is it running? That would be 1700 gallons of propane per month with an 80% efficient furnace. (if my calculations are right)

[plumbers crack]

The furnace is 125 000 but I have the wood insert in the basement ducted into the return side. As is the furnace cycles every 20 minutes with the outside temp at 20*. The extremities still get cold fast.


Here's the sheets I used to calculate the loss, this is the way they taught me in school.