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Author Topic: quandry  (Read 25232 times)

vagabonddreamer

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quandry
« on: May 20, 2012, 02:35:05 PM »

Hello to the site...

I have been burning a Friesen burner for the last 10 years or so.  It is a small company in Manitoba started by an ex-employee of Portage and Main.  He had a better idea...lol.  Anyway...you all know the saying about "if you dont have something good to say...."...i will say no more.

The idea of these burners is great for my particular situation.  I am isolated surrounded by forest and cattle.  I have been researching both the traditional OWB and the new gassifiers.  I have read quite a bit of info on the "Hearth" site with their obvious penchant for the gassifiers.  The question that I have not been able to find a definitive answer for...is the burn times. 

The closest thing to "hardwood" we have in southwest interior of BC is Douglas Fir.  Most people...me included...burn lodgepole pine which is in great supply in the mountains...especially in light of the beetle kill.  I order in a truckload of "post and rail" every year.  This is long thin lodgepole pin used in making treated fence posts and rails.  It is normally between 3" near the top and about 6-8" near the stump.  I cut it into 4' lengths and i can fill my burner and it will go for almost 24 hrs if need be.  Normally I add wood twice a day but it is nice to have the option.

i also wonder at some of the info on both these sites about wood..."dry" wood and "seasoned" wood are different things...i correctly "season" my wood and i have virtually no smoke...even on startup...anyway...

questions given the info above and correctly "seasoned" wood:

would i still have to split the wood that i use (3"-8" rounds)
are the gassifiers really MORE maintenance
do any gassifiers approach the capability for an all day burn
i think the traditional OWB are still available from Portage and Main and Central Boiler any others??

thx for your site... lots of good info here...i have been enjoying reading about the home made boilers...that is something i may look into for the future...vs




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karlk

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Re: quandry
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2012, 03:57:35 AM »

I have the portage&main gasser . I could load once a day no problem. the idea with a gasser is it likes to run full bore, so you should load it with the amount of wood for the temp of the day.So fill it if its cold and dont fill it when its warm. There is no need to split 8" rounds other than to speed up seasoning. The maintenance is a little more but it uses a lot less wood
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boilerman

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Re: quandry
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2012, 08:20:01 PM »

Dreamer, I have burned both a Central Boiler Classic and now their Eclassic 2400 gasser the last 2 winters. I would highly recommend either one. At -30 below I got/get 24 hour burn times with both units, on my 2,300 sq ft house. I'm sure that could vary depending upon insulation. I burn 24 inch lengths and 3"-8" diameters worked great in the Classic and work well in my E2400 as long as they are well seasoned. The gassers really require seasoned wood to perform well. If not much time for seasoning, splitting will speed the dry time. (Seasoned or Dry wood just a matter of terminology I think) I also find it works the best to load for a 24 hour burn time based on outdoor temperature and don't overload.  The gasser model has cut my wood consumption from 10-11 full cord per winter, down to      5 1/2 cord my first season and just 4 1/2 cord during this past warm winter. I was burning a good hard wood for the most part, but I have burned soft wood during the fall and it worked well. It just won't give you the btu of a hard wood, which is why I burn it early in the heating season. The Eclassic requires a little more maintenence than the Classic, but worth it for the wood savings in my mind. I really like the vertical heat exchangers that pretty much clean themselves, as the ash drops down into the main cleanout. From what I've read, the gassers with horizontal tubes require them to be cleaned every 7-10 days and may require more cleanout time.  Both CB models are still available and shown on their website. They also show video of the gasser running on their Eclassic advantage video. Check them out if you haven't already in your research.
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vagabonddreamer

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Re: quandry
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 08:57:51 AM »

Thanks to both of you for the input...one of the things I like about the original burners is the ability to incinerate some household waste and offal.  We do not have garbage service and I try and avoid burying stuff as it just attracts predators.  We run a cow/calf operation and I have occasionally used the burner as an enclave.  The gassers however are attractive in that I like the idea of burning less wood...even though it seems i have an endless supply...lol..

Do either of you use additional water storage??  thx...vs
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boilerman

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Re: quandry
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 05:48:39 PM »

My old Classic had 400 gallons of water and my E2400 has 340 gallons of water. I have never seen any reason for more storage than that...Recovers quick....Only reason I sold my old Classic and bought the new gasser was for the wood savings...While my wood is plentiful, the strength in my back is running lower as I get older :(
Love the wood savings!
I have never burned any garbage or trash in my furnaces. I have a burn barrel out behind the barn...they last about 2 years and they are shot. My dealer said the same garbage acids that eat up the burn barrel would destroy my furnace....Burn barrels are cheap, furnaces are not!
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HandyMark

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Re: quandry
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2012, 07:37:14 PM »

Boilerman, I am with you. I have family who burn everything in their furnaces and just can't seem to make the connection when they rot from the inside out. I occasionally throw food scraps in to keep from stinking up the trash can but I refuse to burn anything but clean wood. I plan to get every year possible out of my boiler.
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willywood

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Re: quandry
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2012, 05:29:23 PM »


I would consider the outdoor Pro-Fab Empyre Pro boilers, pretty hassle free to run and gasifiers to boot so they use a lot less wood.  Plus they have the heat exchange tubes running horizontally front to back so pretty easy to clean.  I've been using mine for 3 winters now and have had no issues burning pine, fir and spruce.  I can load it to the gills and get a longer burn but I prefer to burn half loads so I generally visit her twice per day.  Good luck with your choice but remember to buy Canadian! ^-^
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vagabonddreamer

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Re: quandry
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2012, 08:46:44 PM »

thx for the suggestion willywood...I am going to research the Pro-Fab..

ya Boilerman...I do not make a habit of burning "garbage" garbage...usually just leftovers and stuff from food prep...my "neighbour" about 2 miles away uses his to burn EVERYTHING...he even throws in the occasional chunk of creosote railroad tie when he wants a "long" burn...lol....he has had his burner for almost 15 years he is not even certain about what make it is...lol

I wonder if anybody here has any idea about the flue temps between the gassers and traditionals...given equal height chimney what would the difference in gas temp at the top of the flue??  the reason i ask is that i kinda like to play with things...and i am trying to figger out a way of making use of the massive amount of heat that goes out the top of the chimney in the middle of winter when the burner seems to run almost all day...i cant even imagine how many btu's get pumped into the area surrounding the burner...thx...vs
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willywood

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Re: quandry
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2012, 12:30:42 PM »

With the gasifiers temp. of the flue gas is generally around 250-300 F.  With my Empyre Pro I can actually put my hand in the last path of the heat exchanger before it goes vertical up the chimney.  This is about the min. temp any wood boiler can exhaust at to avoid condensation in the flue.  If you can siphon some of that heat off "after" it has exited the chimney I don't see a problem with using it for other purposes but don't interfere with it till it exits the 4 foot stack or you may create a problem and possibly void your warranty.
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boilerman

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Re: quandry
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2012, 07:25:20 PM »

Because gassers burn down rather than up. Stack temps have to be much less and their is no natural heat rise escaping up and out since the air flow is pushed down with a fan only during a burn cycle. I don't know what the stack temp is on my Eclassic 2400. Willywood, what kind of equipment are you using to measure your stack temp? Is that the average during a burn cyle or the highest temp read during a burn cycle? I would like to compare my Eclassic with your model.
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vagabonddreamer

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Re: quandry
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2012, 08:00:27 AM »

boilerman...on the gassers, would the volume of rise through the chimney not reflect the cfm of the supply fan during the burn??  my current owb uses natural draft and when the unit is not in a burn cycle and the draft door is closed very little natural flow escapes....but during a burn...wow...that is the issue with passive draft i suppose and why gassers might be more efficient...

so much info to digest...and so much CONFLICTING viewpoint to sort through in this industry!!!!  in my mind...i have been trying to reconcile stainless steel for use in these burners...do you guys know of any definitive studies done?? 

the boiler industry is ancient...but i dont think i have ever heard of a commercial boiler made from stainless??  thx...vs



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woodman

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Re: quandry
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2012, 11:00:15 AM »

boilerman...on the gassers, would the volume of rise through the chimney not reflect the cfm of the supply fan during the burn??  my current owb uses natural draft and when the unit is not in a burn cycle and the draft door is closed very little natural flow escapes....but during a burn...wow...that is the issue with passive draft i suppose and why gassers might be more efficient...

so much info to digest...and so much CONFLICTING viewpoint to sort through in this industry!!!!  in my mind...i have been trying to reconcile stainless steel for use in these burners...do you guys know of any definitive studies done?? 

the boiler industry is ancient...but i dont think i have ever heard of a commercial boiler made from stainless??  thx...vs

Pressurized boilers are ancient, open atmosphere water stoves ie. outdoor wood boilers are relatively new (less than 30 years).
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vagabonddreamer

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Re: quandry
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2012, 09:40:39 PM »

soooooo....woodman....i dunno...30 years is ANCIENT!!!! in MY books...lol...30 years...wasnt that before electricity???  boilerman was only 70 yrs old 30  years ago ;D

so given that open atmosphere is relatively new technology...what do you think of stainless for the open boiler systems....is it the oxygen introduced that is the problem??  or the temperature swings???  or does it all come back to the "chief boiler engineer" and maintenance??  thx...vs
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boilerman

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Re: quandry
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2012, 10:36:54 PM »

Dreamer, I'm no expert on commercial stainless boilers. Also didn't know I was so old...although feel like it some days.
I'm aware of different grades of stainless steel in OWF's...304 is the most corrosion resistant, but prone to stress cracking or blowing out welds due to extensive expansion and contraction with firebox heat on one side and water on the other. 409 less corrosion resistant as contains some carbon steel, does not expand/contract as much, but still can stress weld joints. Stainless does not transfer heat as well as carbon steel. Even stainless manufactures still recommend water treatments in their open systems. It is a must, to eliminate water jacket corrosion issues and protect all metal fittings and components in the open heating loop. I think stainless typically costs a little more too.
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woodman

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Re: quandry
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2012, 04:02:48 PM »

soooooo....woodman....i dunno...30 years is ANCIENT!!!! in MY books...lol...30 years...wasnt that before electricity???  boilerman was only 70 yrs old 30  years ago ;D

so given that open atmosphere is relatively new technology...what do you think of stainless for the open boiler systems....is it the oxygen introduced that is the problem??  or the temperature swings???  or does it all come back to the "chief boiler engineer" and maintenance??  thx...vs

I honestly don't know. I think the only way we are getting away with these open systems is due to the chemistry of the water treatments. I think water chemistry and a properly grounded unit  is huge no matter what the boiler is made of. That said I own a 409 stainless boiler and have 5 seasons behind me. When I scratch around in the firebox the metal still looks like new.   
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