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[boilerman]

Oh Scotty, always the philosopher.

[randy_1]

Had a nice visit today from another p&m  dealer "slim you know him" just wanted to see how things were going. Kinda nice to have a dealer network like this. Friends of mine who have boilers from other manufacturers have no clue what has happened to their dealers since they bought the boilers. They are constantly struggling for support and assistance. I introduced My co worker who has a cb and he was amazed first of all by the fact that a dealer whom I did not buy from would take the time to stop in and check to see if I needed anything and second of all he was shocked when the dealer offered to help him out with some issues he is having with the cb. And did not bash it but rather offered advise on fixing it. Like you all say on here together we can help each other... Thank you to all who give positive info on here..

[randy_1]

Oh yeah slim ...one more thing. I am leaving for Canada on Friday for a week long snowmobile trip. And I am leaving Melissa with your number . Take good care of her while I'm gone... I mean the boiler hahaha.

[slimjim]

You can count on it Randy, my wife just called me to the back window and right there 50 feet away from the house were 3 beautiful does trying to antagonize my dogs, what a way to wake up!!!

[slimjim]

Boilerman, you must be tired as well, that was not Scott but instead Marty who happens to own a 250. As far as ALL your numbers that CB claims or anybody else for that matter including us, we all know they can be and are manipulated, remember a few months back when the EPA was suing CB for falsely advertising 97% efficiency, really, come on Boilerman, a cold start high efficiency oil burner like Buderus can't even achieve those numbers in cold start triple pass, direct vent,low volume boilers, if I'm not mistaken they are in the 90% area with exhaust temps of below 400 degrees, I remember going to a show in Wisconsin 2 years ago and walking in the front gate, there at the entrance was CB with his display and hand painted on a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood was his statement, CB -97% efficient PM 82% efficient, he was not even running his units in the show, Dave Jacobi and I ran both the 250 and the chip boiler at the show, the 250 was running with a stack temp of 260 degrees and the chip boiler at 320 degrees both with no visible smoke at all, real life is where it's at, why do you think that the EPA is always working on changing up test procedures, it is to stop manufacturers from manipulating the tests. We both have great units, Hell every boiler out there is a great boiler because it replaces oil, CB has the best marketing in the industry which is why they hold about 70% of the market share. Why is it that that they never want to place their boiler next to mine at a show in fact I rarely see them at a show and I have never seen them run one, I personally invite Rick Young (AKA farmer for hire, the dealer mentioned by Dr. here) to do the Fryburg fair with me and several of my competitors such as Empire, Vigas, Benjamin, Heatmor, Woodmaster, we all set up in one row, ENERGY ROW, we all have a good time and sell to our customer base without bashing one another, what Drpinard did WAS BASHING
  Lets get down to the boilers shall we, I will describe my 250 and you can describe yours OK.
Optimizer 250 weighs 3030 pounds dry weight and holds 240 gallons of water, it has a round top fire box for extra strength and less corners, 3 1/2 inches of solid refractory cement in the base of the firebox with
4 1/2 inches of firebrick in the reaction chamber, A drop in nozzle and easily adjusted doors and latches on all openings of which there are 4, one primary combustion, one reaction chamber and one at each end of the heat exchanger for EASY  cleaning. It has 6 round vertical tubes that start at the reaction chamber and move up to a shelf in the back of the boiler ( Access Door )  then the exhaust goes through 10 horizontal 1 1/2 inch round tubes to the front of the unit, ( Access door ) rises up to the 10 return tubes that are also 1 1/2 inch round back to the rear access door then up the chimney, when I say exhaust temps of 260 degrees this is where we measure it and that is with 190 degree water in the boiler. All those tubes are surrounded by boiler water giving incredible heat exchange area with easy cleaning ability, I can clean my 250 while it sits on my show trailer, on a stepladder at shows, in front of customers, while it is hot in 8 minutes so CB's claims that I personally have seen and heard of how difficult ours are to clean are bull crap. If I can ever persuade CB to a race  on cleaning our units at a show it's game on. By the way how do you clean a square tube, I never could understand that one.
  Lets talk controls shall we, these are machines that are designed to set outside in the weather, controls are going to fail at some point in the units life, we choose to use standard off the shelf components that are accessible anywhere in the world as a matter of fact that Jonson A-419 aqua-stat is probably the most common control in the hydronics industry, computers I'm finding are a great tool but I'm not sure I want mine in 30 degree below zero weather and I certainly don't want to be forced by the manufacturer to purchase the replacement from them when it fails, I'm sure you will have a rebuttal and we can certainly continue but for now I will sign off as I too have to get to work.

[fryedaddy]

Have you guys ever studied evolution?

My point is many times the top competitor wins the match and gets the females.
Often times many of the top competitors are fighting with each other and allow
a lower competitor to bypass the fighting and take his prize.

As a previous poster stated we are all winners for not paying the oil or gas company.

If conversations get heated on this board take a step back and relax before you post.

I do believe the original poster is out of line and ribbing P&M but his claim is baseless.
We all have our own beliefs, I'm posting on an outdoor boiler forum when I own an indoor boiler.

Many of you do not agree with my setup but that's fine. In most cases we are all Apples and Oranges
but as long as you are happy with your unit or your customer is happy thats all that matters.

Happy Burning to all.

[franky1]

Slim Jim,,you surley know evrrything bout them beasts??don't U?

[slimjim]

Thats what my job is, I'm not perfect just like our boilers as you can see by the posts  but I won't sit still for bashing.

[Sprinter]

Wow, lots of sensitivity. A man and his boiler is a very sensitive issue.
To the OP and those looking for the most efficiency.....
Now that he had such a good experience with all the tuff research on what boiler was best. I hope its efficient for him too. $12-$14,000 is a big investment
On the other hand for example, if reliability and efficiency are very important.
HS Tarm Solo Plus 30 102kbtu $13,000 system thermal transfer efficiency minimum 50% better than any
Solo Plus 40.   140kbtu.          $13,600.      OWB on the market. Uses 25-50% less wood to heat same
Solo Plus 60.   198kbtu.          $14,600.       Space
Froling 40/50.  136-171kbtu.   $15,700 has lambda auto controls for a perfect combustion 100% of the time. The smallest SP30 Can heat 2000 sqft of well insulated living space easily. 75-80% real overall burn and thermal efficiency. Prices are not exact, but not far off. No $2k extra.

Plus all components, buffer or storage is optional for all but the Froling, but we will include it for the heck of it. Top of the line buffer/ storage tank with domestic coil and temp monitoring,  3 circulators, loading valve, expansion tank , air el, PRV& fill, top of the line boiler monitoring and control, safety dump zone and control, SS flue pipe, 3 zone valves plus outdoor reset mixing control. Labor and piping not included

A real 20 year warranty that does mean something, if for some highly unlikely reason it's needed. Thousands of documented cases of long reliable proven performance and real ROI. Zero worries about support and design. One of only three manufacturers that build to ASME boiler standards. NO OWB does. Proven designs and a manufacturer that's been around for more than 40 years.

Now this is only if you are interested in an indoor type boiler with low maintenance and high efficiency

[slimjim]

 There you go Sprinter, thats the way we should do it, Promote what you believe in without saying somebody else's is a piece of crap or that yours will eat the competition, why don't we all chime in about our boilers strong points and leave the choice up to the consumer

[willieG]

i drive a used vehicle that gets good mileage...cause i cant afford a new one or a gas guzzler

OWB ..ii made my own and it is not the most efficent one but it was affordable and i can afford the time to cut extra wood.

if it needs warranty work i dont have to fight with anyone on the phone for service...i just have to get to it!

thses stoves are like cars..everone drives a ford  or a gm or what ever for their own reasons..these dam stoves are the same, we all make our choices and move forward from there..when you see a gy on here bashing a stove for some reason...that reason is his own...teh next guy might have the same stove, have had good luck with it and love it.  now this forum startedout as a place for those needing help to come and get some so most of the posts you will see here are likley about problems someone is having. dont decide on aboiler just from perusing this site. talk to owners and deealers and read all you can and try and make an informed decision from knowledge gathered from many sources (not jsut this place)

[boilerman]

That is some great advice Willie! There are some great trouble shooting topics that get addressed on this site. But Slim wanted a debate on this thread, so I'm not turning tail. If newbie buyers want to read this I hope they are allowed to and there is some good information to consider from both sides. At the end of the day, I hope they make the purchase that is best for them with the best information they can accumulate......  Everyone can agree or disagree how the EPA output tests are done, but at least it is a baseline in which all OWF’s can be tested on an equal basis with each other, through the exact same test, done the exact same way and those are the results that EPA posts from their accredited test labs.  Sorry if you don’t like the results therefore claiming they are false. I’m sure if your units would have had better numbers, you would be touting them rather than discrediting them. But you’re a salesman so what else can you do.  I totally agree that no OWF is 90%+ efficient, but I can see if EPA is jamming their testing down the throats of the manufactures and “the EPA test results” show those kind of efficiencies, why not use them…At least EPA came to “their” senses and pulled those numbers off “their” website and requested “all” manufactures pull them from their advertising.  I can also agree with you on the point that all OWF’s are saving us user’s money. Propane is now over $5.00 in our area! Wow, that’s pretty cool if CB holds 70% of the market. If that is the case, that had to be achieved by more than marketing. I’d say they have a lot of long term happy owners that have enlisted their friends and neighbors to buy one too. That probably wouldn’t happen if they had a huge number of unsatisfied, disgruntled customers. By the way, it appears to me that P & M has some pretty top notch marketing out there too right now. Time will tell if the product backs it up over the next 30 years as Central Boiler’s seems to have.  I don’t know anything about the CB dealer in your area, but mine is top notch and does a lot of shows and events.  As a friend and E owner I’ve helped him at some shows and go out on an occasional service call on a Saturday once in awhile or on an install to help him out.  Kind of fun doing the shows and having old Classic owners come up and tell us about how much they love their 18 year old CL-40 or CL-17. I would also guess CB must have a lot of “good” dealers out there if they hold 70% of the sales market share a you stated.
Ok, now I’ll describe my E2400: weighs 2,925 lbs dry weight and holds 340 gallons of water, 30 year old proven square firebox design for more heat transfer area, although on a gasser, most transfer takes place down below in the reaction chamber area and through the exchangers. My 2400 is mostly all steel without the added weight of all the extra refractory cement yours has. Personally I have concerns about moisture getting trapped behind all that refractory and the steel causing corrosion, but time will tell if that is a problem or not. Also my firebox size is about 23.5 cubic ft while yours seems to be only about 11 cubic ft which means it won’t hold as much wood for the real cold nights. I agree the gassers run the best by only putting in enough wood to last until your next desired loading time. I load mine once a day, which is enough when it gets -25 or worse. I believe you have 20 or so individual horizontal exchanger tubes that need cleaning every 7-10 days or so. I have 2 huge vertical transfer exchangers (they are not squares by the way, you might want to check that out sometime) that allow the “dust” to drop down into the reaction chamber below. I brush the dust out at the end of the heating season, not every 10 days. It’s really a great design. Pretty much clean themselves. I shovel the reaction chamber below out once every 3 weeks or so, but that can vary depending on wood type and how much wood going through based on outside temps. You want to race cleaning heat exchangers? Let's go….oops, I’m already done.  I agree your Johnson controller is simple, but I really like what the Firestar controller does.  Monitors the heat and combustion rate down in the reaction chamber and fine tunes just how much secondary air is injected into that gasification chamber automatically throughout the variations of a burn cycle for optimum efficiency. I believe you have knobs that you turn manually “by guess and by golly” to control that air and once set it stays the same throughout each burn cycle with no fine tuned variations. I’m amazed at how the temp in the reaction chamber varies during the burn and can be watched along with the water temp on the display. I can also vary air pulse times between burn cycles so that even at 85+ degrees in the summer it runs great just heating my domestic water heater and it never goes out. (Unless I forget to put wood in it) I’ve also added their new XP monitor to my Firestar so I can monitor the water and reaction chamber temps from inside the house or wherever I am with my smart phone or computer with internet. It charts all this information. Again you can see what a difference dry wood makes over greener wood, varieties of wood, etc. Even tells when the door was last opened for filling, so I know if my son loaded or not if he was supposed to! Yeah, I have to admit I’m kind of a techie. Could a problem occur with the Firestar? Of course, all electrical components can and do fail, but so far I’m into my 4th heating season with it and no problems and it “has” been through some brutal -30 degree nights .I’ve seen a couple of Firestar failures in our area, but most showed up within the first couple of months and CB covered them under their warranty.  Oh yeah, my E has some pretty cool LED lights on each side that light up my wood piles and one the side of my door that shines into firebox when the door is open. Great feature when loading in the dark and fire is resting stage. That should be enough rebuttal comparisons for now. Both units are saving people a ton of money this winter, but there are certainly differences between them and it seems to me the E2400 is a larger unit. With the E2400 currently selling at $11,575 vrs your 250 at $11,500 the E2400 seems to give more bang for the buck in my opinion for a EPA qualified gasser, so it should be worth considering for the “newbie” shoppers out there. So Slim, that’s my rebuttal to your comparisons.

[lasasj]

Quite an entertaining array of forum posts.  Although I agree that drpinard deserves every comment posted, I still feel as though there is an injustice inherent with respect to each brand of outdoor wood boilers, individually.  Any debate regarding the pros and cons of different brands of boilers is inevitably nonobjective to begin with.  We're talking about apples and oranges here people.  I recently performed countless hours of research to answer the daunting question of which boiler is best.  I am not wealthy; I am not stupid; and I needed to take out my first home equity loan to solely pay for my boiler, so I can certainly assure you that I looked at each and every company brochure, internet post, youtube video, performance study, literature etc. and talked to every owb in a 50 mile radius that I knew before buying my boiler.  After researching and researching and researching, I can tell you two things:

1)  In general, the big decision is buying an outdoor wood boiler.  Each brand offers its own advantages.  Most of these advantages are simply COMPROMISES from other designs.  It's like deciding to buy a Porche Boxster or a 70's plow truck.  Are you compromising speed, function, aesthetics, price...etc?  Some things are more important to some people than others.  What fits you will not necessarily fit your neighbor, your uncle or any random stranger on the internet. 

2)  The world, the internet and this website are full of subjectively minded people.  People (and I'm no exception) will tend to back their brand and note all the pros/cons of each brand instead of focusing on the compromises.  I love my boiler, it fits me and I am certainly glad I bought it.  Would I recommend it to my brother?  ABSOLUTELTY!  Would I recommend it to my father-in law?  FOR SURE!  Would I recommend it to my neighbor?  PROBABLY NOT.  I think that some of the other brands/models I researched would fit him better.

Let us all focus on the uniqueness of each brand/model so that potential informers can purchase a boiler that fits THEIR needs, not ours, and ultimately strengthen the outdoor wood boiler community.  God knows we have a tough road ahead if we want to keep burning wood.  Fryedaddy posted some sensible logic.  And to add to it... forget the smaller competitor... we have the EPA to watch out for.



Oh... and to contradict myself... I'm still getting way too much enjoyment out of this forum post, so please feel free to continue debating.  GO CENTRAL BOILER !!! 

[slimjim]

Great posts from both of you CB guys, Boilerman I don't think you completely answered  to a couple of my points, first is the testing, we tested at Intertech in Middleton Wi, I believe CB tested in their own lab and that is where the discrepancy happened, you may challenge that but I would like to see proof of that if you don't mind, nobody else in the industry has ever claimed those efficiency ratings, when a person tells me something that is meant as a marketing tool and then it's proven wrong, I personally have a problem believing them again, something just smells bad there, second point that I made was the stack temps on our units, come on you are a boiler guy, do you really think you get even close to the heat exchange and low exhaust temps that we do on that single pass heat exchanger, I personally have measured it at over 500 degrees, perhaps that is the reason for the oversized firebox, one more thing, do you guys run those units at the shows that you go to, Louisville Ky last year was the first and only show that I have done in years that I have done without running our units and that was only because I was asked by Brian to help man up the show with him as it is a very busy show, I don't book a show if I can't run my units as I think the customer should see it run before they buy it, kind of a test drive. One more thing that CB does that irritates me that may or may not bother you, go to the Btec website, Biomass thermal energy council, right there they are the proud sponsor of the program, these are the same people who are ramming through the newest run of EPA regulations that will run the majority of boiler manufacturers out of business because they promote pellets, doesnt CB have a pellet boiler, we have a true biomass boiler on the market right now with the Enviro 500, the only wood chip boiler that has ever been tested at an EPA accredited lab in North America running the same product that comes out of the chipper that is in the woods, that again was Intertech in Madison. Why is it that after showing our 500 two years ago in Saratoga Springs NY at the Btec seminar we have not been allowed to show at any other Btec conference, I suspect somebody is bought and paid for and in my opinion that is not good for the industry but it sure helps CB

[boilerman]

So, back to our debate. Looks like we have a few followers enjoying this.
Slim where do you guys come up with such ridiculous accusations and claims? Seems you got off track on our little debate on furnace features and performance comparisons and have succumbed to some old fashioned political style mudslinging…. Central Boiler can run their own tests, submit them to EPA and get those results posted? Are you kidding me? There’s a Data Plate on my furnace and on all Eclassics stating Tested and Listed by OTL (Omni Test Laboratories Inc) in Portland, Oregon…An accredited testing lab, http://www.omni-test.com their results are turned into EPA. Oh and by the way, stack temperatures are not what determine efficiency and output results. Efficiency numbers are determined by the amount of Btu’s that are driven into the water for maintaining heat exchange from burning the test required load amount of wood, which performs through both optimum combustion and heat transfer during testing.(input vrs output derives efficiency #'s in simplistic terms) I would think the better that process, the lower the particulate emission. So if you think CB has an inferior heat transfer design, why are the posted EPA E2400 emission output numbers lower than yours? I guess burning a unit at a show is your personal preference, but I agree buyers should see a unit in action. In discussion with my dealer buddy on this matter, he says CB has a dealer burn credit program in place so dealers can have Eclassics burning at their home or place of business for showing and demonstrating to customers. Makes sense to me. Next I don’t know much about this Btec accusation so I googled it and this is what I found. http://www.biomassthermal.org/pdf/aboutBTEC.pdf

The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a non-profit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
ABOUT THE BIOMASS THERMAL ENERGY COUNCIL
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a nonprofit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council (BTEC) is an association of biomass fuel producers, appliance manufacturers and distributors, supply chain companies and non-profit organizations that view biomass thermal energy as a renewable, responsible, clean and energy-efficient pathway to meeting America’s energy 

Does not look too bad to me. I see Central Boiler, Woodmaster, Garn and Tarm listed among around 150 members listed. Now you’ve made another ludicrous statement about CB being involved in this organization, “these are the same people who are ramming through the newest run of EPA regulations that will run the majority of boiler manufacturers out of business because they promote pellets”.  Again, are you kidding me? CB is leading the charge with an organization in favor of putting more EPA wood burning regulations in place, banning cord wood burning in favor of selling pellets stoves? That would be business suicide. That market will never be as large as the outdoor wood stove market. While pellet burning may work for some people, I don't see that a large customer base will ever be there. There is no independence if buying wood pellets where prices fluctuate like any other energy commodity. Cord wood is always in ample supply and there is much more savings in tipping a tree on your own property for heating your house than having to buy another energy product. Pellet burning may work for some people.So your statement makes no common sense at all, that would not help CB. I don’t see Portage and Main on the list of BTEC members, looks like joining is pretty easy from what I read. Maybe if you joined the organization they would be more receptive to your chip burner?