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[Sprinter]

Here is an article on PONPC point of no pressure change and pumping away.
http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/

If your zone circulators have flow checks the 26-99 is unnecessary. There is no volume of water in the loop like a boiler would have. Just not enough mass in the flat plate. Also all of the returns should be on the lower return line so as to keep supply temps even going to the zones. This diagram is good if the flat plate had mass like a boiler or was a buffer tank and the primary circ would only need to be a 007 or 15-58 which would supply upto 15 GPM with 1.25" headers.

This would be considered a tricky pipe layout. I would use a spirovent where it is and move the makeup to the lower return pipe to maintain the PONPC. In this case. The flat plate changes the little details. Nice job there , your on the right track.
Will your boiler lines be 1.25" ID also? You could possibly cut your electric usage by 50% or more , if sized to use smaller or ECM circulators.

[sceptre74]

Underground lines are going to be 1 inch Logstor which I guess is close to others 1 1/4. I'm contemplating putting a bumblebee on the primary loop since it will be running all the time. Nice to try and save energy where you can

[Sprinter]

Ok, well if you changed the zone circulators to zone valves then you could use just 1 bumblebee to serve the zones upto 15 GPM or 150kbtu/hr at 180 supply. That's a lot of heat and a nice simple setup if you go that route. Are you isolating the system with a flat plate because of boiler elevation compared to system zones?

[sceptre74]

No, the boiler and basement are pretty much at the same level. Since I'm putting the baseboard in the second story bathroom, we figured a pressurized system would be best to keep air out of the system. Possibly going to put infloor down the road so I'll be ready for it

[NaturallyAspirated]

Here is an article on PONPC point of no pressure change and pumping away.
http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/

Sorry I have been sick the last few days sceptre!

Neal

[Scott7m]

Sprinter, where do you come up with these wild numbers???

The other day you were telling someone they would only achieve 7 GPM with a 130ft run of logstor

Now your telling someone it's gonna be easy as pie to get 15 GPM out of a bumble bee bump that's equivalent to an 008 in performanc, on an even longer run of logstor. 

I've got a bumble bee on my main loop and my stove is roughly 70 ft from the house, it travels through a 20 plate and 16 20 and my flow rate is very low.   But I see you telling people all the time ohh, it's no problem to get 12-15 GPM out of a small 75-130 dollar pump.   That's simply not true in any stretch of the imagination, most of these folks are placing there boilers 100ft or more from there homes, it's not like there in the basement flowing through a header.

Also, u keep insisting it doesn't matter where the pump goes?  Why?  That may be true in the pressurized world but pump location can be crucial in these open systems and many of the dealers here will tell you where we see the most pump failures,  it's always most commonly on pumps not located on the back of the stove. 

[Sprinter]

Details grasshopper details. I'm referring to the load side only with the 1.25" headers and zones. I don't think I mention anything about the boiler side circ.... when headers are sized right a bumblebee might be maxed out there, but they can flow that much. I doubt he will ever see a demand that requires that much and if so not for long. If his calculations come out different he's still a minor change away from still providing variable speed control. I like how this guy has planned and isolated his system for better performance and longevity..when you know darn well many skip or ignore that part. Just by that little detail he won't have the air/circulator associated problems and enjoy longer equipment life, while others will come on here and ask why am I still having problems.

And absolutely yes it doesn't matter where the circ is located when installed correctly. This means NOT installing a circ above boiler waterline, NOT without bleeding or isolation hardware and proper sizing calculations,,,,etc. you just can't slap a system together , fire it up and run , like we see so often. ( Not implying you do this in any way) Far too often all these pump problems are a direct result from poor installation and sizing. Just like the recent post and pictures of the eroding brass fittings in a few months. All they see (mezzmorized actually) is that initial cheapest price and never calculate the seasonal or 5-10 year costs. There is absolutely no reason these circs shouldn't last a minimum of 10 years in an open system. OWB's are not the only application that's not pressurized. Food, chemical,farm....

It sounds like atleast your supply side system is good, just by the fact that you are using a small circulator 007/15-58/bumblebee) for system supply. Less than a $100 pump for the non ECM version, Versus the guy who has gone thru 3 very large and expensive $350 plus circulators and still doesn't know why.


There isn't enough good guys like you Scott to ensure everything is done right. But by having a place where accurate info and methods can be shared,  hopefully fewer bad situations can be avoided. Protecting the wood burning hydronic industry name and efficiency helps everyone.

[sceptre74]

Here is an article on PONPC point of no pressure change and pumping away.
http://smartgreenbuild.com/blog/download/591/

Sorry I have been sick the last few days sceptre!



Neal

No problem. Now I know why. Lol

[sceptre74]

Thanks sprinter. I can only wish that it was myself that planned this install. All the accolades must be sent to slimjim. He certainly knows what he's doing

[Scott7m]

We have got go be real careful tho telling people these small pumps are good ideas

Here is why I feel that way...  first of all, I find it an extremely rare situation across middle America where folks have it set up like a hydronic system with a header etc.  Most or 90% I see is a coil in the furnace and a 20 plate at the hot water heater and back to the stove. 

So with potentially long runs and a fairly restrictive 20 plate it's important to keep the flow up for boiler protection purposes and heat distribution.   I think many folks come here and see someone like me using a bumble bee and want to do that, but fail to realize than in 80% of installs that I see in my part of the country they simply won't work

Now, I'm sure u say well there not doing it right,  which in some cases are true but you also have to realize how different our customer bases could be.  A LOT of my customers are here because they can't afford there food next month because there heat pump bill was 800 bucks.

I've sen reference to well folks buy a nice truck but skimp on an install,  I have seen that as well, but by and large, most of my local customers are scraping by at all means to make it.  It's not a cool project or a new toy to them, it's survival.

I often have to argue with folks to use insulated lines haha, can't imagine what would happen if I told them they needed most of the stuff you true hydronic installers like slim and sprinter.  The systems you guys work on are rather complex and I know you all do good work.  I just rarely get the chance to do something so nice

I've got 1 job coming up where it's all radiant,  I'm going to have slim help me on it,  I've Def got my ideas on how I think it should be done,  but I'm not to proud to ask for more opinions on it.  This is why this site is such a good source

[slimjim]

I would be proud to help any way I can Scott, perhaps we can look at it on my way down, thanks for thinking of me!

[Sprinter]

I hope for the customers sake, you have  a radiant design sized and plan done. All of my wholesalers provide an engineered plan for free as long as I'm buying some of the materials there. Otherwise a $100 is cheap to have a blueprint all sized and calculated so there is no guessing.

How does someone struggling to pay for food afford a new outdoor wood stove system?
There is never a worry about small circulators working right when the correct calculations and design are done. As you can see 99% of residential jobs use the same small circs for many years. This is why a bumblebee or grundfos Alpha is pretty much the only circ we need to stock on the trucks to fit most replacements or upgrades.

[willieG]

i see in farm books here there is a stove advertised for abut 4 grand that will heat 1 normal sized house...i can tell you that one normal sized house here could easily use 600 dollars of electricity to heat 1 month..so i could see easily averaging 2400 to 3000 for heat in one year..buy a 4 grand wood stove on time and the payments would be less than the years heat likley. and we know fuel rates (no matter what type you use) will keep going up!

[Scott7m]

Yea I'll March right down to Lowes and have them draw me one up,  you are in your own world, there are no places that does anything even remotely close to that in this part of the world.  If I want anything related to hydronic it sure don't come local. 

Yea if folks are struggling to pay there 7-800 or more a month heating bills and they can get a wood stove and get a loan for 150 a month suddenly they have moved in the right direction.

Talk to yoder, he knows exactly what I'm talking about.  The whole professional I'm an expert gig doesn't fly down here, folks want to deal with someone they feel has been in there shoes and they are extremely leary of anyone who shows up with a logo on there white polo

But in regards to the home with radiant, I've had several rounds of training in hydronic radiant heat and have a descent handle on it. 

Most of the systems down here tho end up having 12-18 # of head, those alphas and bumble bees ain't gonna do squat with that...

[Scott7m]

Let's not get off course to much here as this is silly and sounds like the crap we see on other forums

But sure, I can design all my systems to where they could use a little tiny circulator, but u can bet I wouldn't sell any of them because for example, I see you telling folks before, " oh you need 1 1/2 inch line from the house to the boiler" .  Yea...  I see a lot of folks lining up to pay 40 bucks a foot for insulated pipe of such large sized, all for what??  So they can lower there head pressure and use a smaller pump that draws 85 watts vs a larger pump that uses 125?