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[kommandokenny]

Pump failure looks to be a concern with my setup, and others.
I have a backup automatic generator and backup propane heat.
If the boiler pump fails and I’m not around,, the whole operation is in jeopardy.

I can   get another cartridge for the pump.
Don’t like the idea of changing it outside at the boiler at -40.
We know it will be close to -40 when it fails.
If I’m home when the pump fails, I would have a very short window to change it out, before the lines at the back of the boiler freeze.
If I’m not home …….forget about it.
I’m installing valves inside the basement to drain the lines before I would attempt to replace the pump cartridge.
I’m kind of a belt and suspenders kinda guy  and was thinking about adding another pump, in series, inside the house.
Would this be feasible?
Could I leave it turned off till needed
Would water flow through it easily?
 Could I use a smaller, cheaper pump, as backup?/
Is there anyway to hook it up to come on automatically, if the main pump at the back of the boiler fails?

kk

[agriffinjd]

I'm not convinced you'd freeze up at the back of your boiler if the pump failed.  Seems like that would be the last place to freeze up since the fire would still be going, heating the water, and at most the back of the stove would be the only "dump zone" while the pump is seized. 

That said, it's an interesting idea.  I wonder if you could be them in line on a trip breaker of some kind so that if the one fails the other immediately comes on.  They'd have to both be outside though.

You mentioned draining the lines in order to replace the pump.  I had my installer put an isolation valve on each side of the pump so if it does fail, I can just turn off the valves, replace the pump, open the valves back up, back in business.  You may want to do that as well.

[kommandokenny]

I'll post a pic of the back of the boiler,,,,,,,,,, then factor in -40 c or f.
It's insulated but will freeze quick.

[caper]

Just my opinion but i think alot of us guys are way over thinking our owbs, its a simple system , why do we always over complicate things, i can see adding a few little things to make them run easier, but really we are always over doing it...just my opinion, and remember the more things we add ,the more things that can go wrong when its -40 out...

[kommandokenny]

You mentioned draining the lines in order to replace the pump.  I had my installer put an isolation valve on each side of the pump so if it does fail, I can just turn off the valves, replace the pump, open the valves back up, back in business.  You may want to do that as well.

I would hopefully just replace the cartridge and leave the pump bolted up .

[mlappin]

Just my opinion but i think alot of us guys are way over thinking our owbs, its a simple system , why do we always over complicate things, i can see adding a few little things to make them run easier, but really we are always over doing it...just my opinion, and remember the more things we add ,the more things that can go wrong when its -40 out...

 

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid

Just a little something that should be beat into every engineer before they receive their degree.

15 years ago when I got my home built up and running I installed a Grundfos 26-99, its still in use now.

[kommandokenny]

-40 will freeze this up quick.

[kommandokenny]

So far, my idea seems to be overkill

[LittleJohn]

I agree -> KISS, is the way to go

As long as you have a back up pump available, i.e. on the shelf you should be fine.  BTW, why travel when its -40 c/f that is too cold to be outside

[tawilson1152]

I added a second pump this winter for two reasons. To see if it would increase flow and for a backup. I have an Alpha 15-55 just before my hx which was showing on it's readout 6 gpm and 43 hz. I added another 15-55 on the other side of the hx pumping back to the boiler. Both pumps showed 43 hz and 8 gpm with the occasional bump up to 9, I'm thinking because it is close and maybe water temp makes a difference.
After Kenny posted I decided to see what one pump would do, so I unplugged the second pump and left it alone for an hour.. The hx stayed at 43 and the flow dropped back to 6 gpm, so the second pump isn't causing much of a restriction.
It worked for me, and if it hadn't I would've taken the second pump out and  and saved it for a backup. A few years ago just for a hoot I bolted a 007 to the inlet of the 15-55, and I believe I gained a gallon or so of flow. I've got some pics somewhere I'll look up.

[mlappin]

So far, my idea seems to be overkill

Well, simplest way I see of doing this is to get another pump the same size as the one you have now, install a tee before and after the pump, plumb both pumps in so they are side by side, both pumps will have to have a integral flow check or a check valve of some kind to prevent one pump that is running from just pumping the water back thru the other. Then get an alternating switching relay, IE when it's energized circuit A in use, next time it's energized circuit B is in use, next time energized circuit A is use, etc. Get a low pressure diaphragm switch like used to control a well, plumb the switch into your loop, when one pump quits the diaphragm opens and closes the circuit to the relay and it switches to circuit B which will then run the second pump. One drawback I see to this is if the power goes out when restarted the other pump will run so it's not like you'll have a brand new pump as a backup as each time the power is turned on or off the relay will switch.

I have a low pressure diaphragm in my setup, the controller for the dampers is not energized until the pump is running and X amount of pressure is reached then the diaphragm trips and I get power to the damper controller. I did this in case of a pump failure or a major leak that would cause et pump to suck air, no pressure, no controller then hopefully no boil overs.

[Crow]

You could always insulate around the lines even temporarily to give you more time to switch out pump or cartridge.
 Keep it simple I agree. But also heard the old " Hope for the best - plan for the worst". If you have a pump on hand and a generator available it sounds like you'll be fine Kenny. At least in this situation.

[kommandokenny]

Ya, Crow, first thing I thought of was an electric blanket type affair to wrap around the exposed lines.
Then I thought just quick drain the lines and service the pump.
All this depends on being home.
If I'm out to town [-30 -40 ]....who's gonna drain it or plug in the electric blanket.
Would freeze real quick .
I like Mr Wilson's setup with two pumps running.
I could  un plug when home, plug in when it's cold,,, and I'm outta the house?
Cost of running another Taco 011?

They probably kept it simple at Chernobyl in 86

[kommandokenny]

So far, my idea seems to be overkill

Well, simplest way I see of doing this is to get another pump the same size as the one you have now, install a tee before and after the pump, plumb both pumps in so they are side by side, both pumps will have to have a integral flow check or a check valve of some kind to prevent one pump that is running from just pumping the water back thru the other. Then get an alternating switching relay, IE when it's energized circuit A in use, next time it's energized circuit B is in use, next time energized circuit A is use, etc. Get a low pressure diaphragm switch like used to control a well, plumb the switch into your loop, when one pump quits the diaphragm opens and closes the circuit to the relay and it switches to circuit B which will then run the second pump. One drawback I see to this is if the power goes out when restarted the other pump will run so it's not like you'll have a brand new pump as a backup as each time the power is turned on or off the relay will switch.

I have a low pressure diaphragm in my setup, the controller for the dampers is not energized until the pump is running and X amount of pressure is reached then the diaphragm trips and I get power to the damper controller. I did this in case of a pump failure or a major leak that would cause et pump to suck air, no pressure, no controller then hopefully no boil overs.

This is a little over my head,, gotta read it over a few times ..


The other question I had was,,, would the impeller of the seized boiler pump, restrict the water flow enough,, to make the whole, inline extra pump,, useless.
I guess thats why Martin hooked the pumps up in parallel

[kommandokenny]

I agree -> KISS, is the way to go

As long as you have a back up pump available, i.e. on the shelf you should be fine.  BTW, why travel when its -40 c/f that is too cold to be outside

Definitely too cold to change a pump.......
Fingers would fall off.!!