Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: vagabonddreamer on May 20, 2012, 02:35:05 PM
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Hello to the site...
I have been burning a Friesen burner for the last 10 years or so. It is a small company in Manitoba started by an ex-employee of Portage and Main. He had a better idea...lol. Anyway...you all know the saying about "if you dont have something good to say...."...i will say no more.
The idea of these burners is great for my particular situation. I am isolated surrounded by forest and cattle. I have been researching both the traditional OWB and the new gassifiers. I have read quite a bit of info on the "Hearth" site with their obvious penchant for the gassifiers. The question that I have not been able to find a definitive answer for...is the burn times.
The closest thing to "hardwood" we have in southwest interior of BC is Douglas Fir. Most people...me included...burn lodgepole pine which is in great supply in the mountains...especially in light of the beetle kill. I order in a truckload of "post and rail" every year. This is long thin lodgepole pin used in making treated fence posts and rails. It is normally between 3" near the top and about 6-8" near the stump. I cut it into 4' lengths and i can fill my burner and it will go for almost 24 hrs if need be. Normally I add wood twice a day but it is nice to have the option.
i also wonder at some of the info on both these sites about wood..."dry" wood and "seasoned" wood are different things...i correctly "season" my wood and i have virtually no smoke...even on startup...anyway...
questions given the info above and correctly "seasoned" wood:
would i still have to split the wood that i use (3"-8" rounds)
are the gassifiers really MORE maintenance
do any gassifiers approach the capability for an all day burn
i think the traditional OWB are still available from Portage and Main and Central Boiler any others??
thx for your site... lots of good info here...i have been enjoying reading about the home made boilers...that is something i may look into for the future...vs
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I have the portage&main gasser . I could load once a day no problem. the idea with a gasser is it likes to run full bore, so you should load it with the amount of wood for the temp of the day.So fill it if its cold and dont fill it when its warm. There is no need to split 8" rounds other than to speed up seasoning. The maintenance is a little more but it uses a lot less wood
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Dreamer, I have burned both a Central Boiler Classic and now their Eclassic 2400 gasser the last 2 winters. I would highly recommend either one. At -30 below I got/get 24 hour burn times with both units, on my 2,300 sq ft house. I'm sure that could vary depending upon insulation. I burn 24 inch lengths and 3"-8" diameters worked great in the Classic and work well in my E2400 as long as they are well seasoned. The gassers really require seasoned wood to perform well. If not much time for seasoning, splitting will speed the dry time. (Seasoned or Dry wood just a matter of terminology I think) I also find it works the best to load for a 24 hour burn time based on outdoor temperature and don't overload. The gasser model has cut my wood consumption from 10-11 full cord per winter, down to 5 1/2 cord my first season and just 4 1/2 cord during this past warm winter. I was burning a good hard wood for the most part, but I have burned soft wood during the fall and it worked well. It just won't give you the btu of a hard wood, which is why I burn it early in the heating season. The Eclassic requires a little more maintenence than the Classic, but worth it for the wood savings in my mind. I really like the vertical heat exchangers that pretty much clean themselves, as the ash drops down into the main cleanout. From what I've read, the gassers with horizontal tubes require them to be cleaned every 7-10 days and may require more cleanout time. Both CB models are still available and shown on their website. They also show video of the gasser running on their Eclassic advantage video. Check them out if you haven't already in your research.
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Thanks to both of you for the input...one of the things I like about the original burners is the ability to incinerate some household waste and offal. We do not have garbage service and I try and avoid burying stuff as it just attracts predators. We run a cow/calf operation and I have occasionally used the burner as an enclave. The gassers however are attractive in that I like the idea of burning less wood...even though it seems i have an endless supply...lol..
Do either of you use additional water storage?? thx...vs
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My old Classic had 400 gallons of water and my E2400 has 340 gallons of water. I have never seen any reason for more storage than that...Recovers quick....Only reason I sold my old Classic and bought the new gasser was for the wood savings...While my wood is plentiful, the strength in my back is running lower as I get older :(
Love the wood savings!
I have never burned any garbage or trash in my furnaces. I have a burn barrel out behind the barn...they last about 2 years and they are shot. My dealer said the same garbage acids that eat up the burn barrel would destroy my furnace....Burn barrels are cheap, furnaces are not!
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Boilerman, I am with you. I have family who burn everything in their furnaces and just can't seem to make the connection when they rot from the inside out. I occasionally throw food scraps in to keep from stinking up the trash can but I refuse to burn anything but clean wood. I plan to get every year possible out of my boiler.
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I would consider the outdoor Pro-Fab Empyre Pro boilers, pretty hassle free to run and gasifiers to boot so they use a lot less wood. Plus they have the heat exchange tubes running horizontally front to back so pretty easy to clean. I've been using mine for 3 winters now and have had no issues burning pine, fir and spruce. I can load it to the gills and get a longer burn but I prefer to burn half loads so I generally visit her twice per day. Good luck with your choice but remember to buy Canadian! ^-^
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thx for the suggestion willywood...I am going to research the Pro-Fab..
ya Boilerman...I do not make a habit of burning "garbage" garbage...usually just leftovers and stuff from food prep...my "neighbour" about 2 miles away uses his to burn EVERYTHING...he even throws in the occasional chunk of creosote railroad tie when he wants a "long" burn...lol....he has had his burner for almost 15 years he is not even certain about what make it is...lol
I wonder if anybody here has any idea about the flue temps between the gassers and traditionals...given equal height chimney what would the difference in gas temp at the top of the flue?? the reason i ask is that i kinda like to play with things...and i am trying to figger out a way of making use of the massive amount of heat that goes out the top of the chimney in the middle of winter when the burner seems to run almost all day...i cant even imagine how many btu's get pumped into the area surrounding the burner...thx...vs
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With the gasifiers temp. of the flue gas is generally around 250-300 F. With my Empyre Pro I can actually put my hand in the last path of the heat exchanger before it goes vertical up the chimney. This is about the min. temp any wood boiler can exhaust at to avoid condensation in the flue. If you can siphon some of that heat off "after" it has exited the chimney I don't see a problem with using it for other purposes but don't interfere with it till it exits the 4 foot stack or you may create a problem and possibly void your warranty.
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Because gassers burn down rather than up. Stack temps have to be much less and their is no natural heat rise escaping up and out since the air flow is pushed down with a fan only during a burn cycle. I don't know what the stack temp is on my Eclassic 2400. Willywood, what kind of equipment are you using to measure your stack temp? Is that the average during a burn cyle or the highest temp read during a burn cycle? I would like to compare my Eclassic with your model.
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boilerman...on the gassers, would the volume of rise through the chimney not reflect the cfm of the supply fan during the burn?? my current owb uses natural draft and when the unit is not in a burn cycle and the draft door is closed very little natural flow escapes....but during a burn...wow...that is the issue with passive draft i suppose and why gassers might be more efficient...
so much info to digest...and so much CONFLICTING viewpoint to sort through in this industry!!!! in my mind...i have been trying to reconcile stainless steel for use in these burners...do you guys know of any definitive studies done??
the boiler industry is ancient...but i dont think i have ever heard of a commercial boiler made from stainless?? thx...vs
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boilerman...on the gassers, would the volume of rise through the chimney not reflect the cfm of the supply fan during the burn?? my current owb uses natural draft and when the unit is not in a burn cycle and the draft door is closed very little natural flow escapes....but during a burn...wow...that is the issue with passive draft i suppose and why gassers might be more efficient...
so much info to digest...and so much CONFLICTING viewpoint to sort through in this industry!!!! in my mind...i have been trying to reconcile stainless steel for use in these burners...do you guys know of any definitive studies done??
the boiler industry is ancient...but i dont think i have ever heard of a commercial boiler made from stainless?? thx...vs
Pressurized boilers are ancient, open atmosphere water stoves ie. outdoor wood boilers are relatively new (less than 30 years).
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soooooo....woodman....i dunno...30 years is ANCIENT!!!! in MY books...lol...30 years...wasnt that before electricity??? boilerman was only 70 yrs old 30 years ago ;D
so given that open atmosphere is relatively new technology...what do you think of stainless for the open boiler systems....is it the oxygen introduced that is the problem?? or the temperature swings??? or does it all come back to the "chief boiler engineer" and maintenance?? thx...vs
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Dreamer, I'm no expert on commercial stainless boilers. Also didn't know I was so old...although feel like it some days.
I'm aware of different grades of stainless steel in OWF's...304 is the most corrosion resistant, but prone to stress cracking or blowing out welds due to extensive expansion and contraction with firebox heat on one side and water on the other. 409 less corrosion resistant as contains some carbon steel, does not expand/contract as much, but still can stress weld joints. Stainless does not transfer heat as well as carbon steel. Even stainless manufactures still recommend water treatments in their open systems. It is a must, to eliminate water jacket corrosion issues and protect all metal fittings and components in the open heating loop. I think stainless typically costs a little more too.
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soooooo....woodman....i dunno...30 years is ANCIENT!!!! in MY books...lol...30 years...wasnt that before electricity??? boilerman was only 70 yrs old 30 years ago ;D
so given that open atmosphere is relatively new technology...what do you think of stainless for the open boiler systems....is it the oxygen introduced that is the problem?? or the temperature swings??? or does it all come back to the "chief boiler engineer" and maintenance?? thx...vs
I honestly don't know. I think the only way we are getting away with these open systems is due to the chemistry of the water treatments. I think water chemistry and a properly grounded unit is huge no matter what the boiler is made of. That said I own a 409 stainless boiler and have 5 seasons behind me. When I scratch around in the firebox the metal still looks like new.
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soooooo....woodman....i dunno...30 years is ANCIENT!!!! in MY books...lol...30 years...wasnt that before electricity??? boilerman was only 70 yrs old 30 years ago ;D
so given that open atmosphere is relatively new technology...what do you think of stainless for the open boiler systems....is it the oxygen introduced that is the problem?? or the temperature swings??? or does it all come back to the "chief boiler engineer" and maintenance?? thx...vs
I honestly don't know. I think the only way we are getting away with these open systems is due to the chemistry of the water treatments. I think water chemistry and a properly grounded unit is huge no matter what the boiler is made of. That said I own a 409 stainless boiler and have 5 seasons behind me. When I scratch around in the firebox the metal still looks like new.
Closed system way to go..No worries of what is discussed on this thread.. I Own a Aqua-therm..going on six yrs this yr..Yes its stainless steal...I have no worries about oxygen in my water jacket, water treatments.etc.. Its a sealed system like my oil boiler..
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MattyNH throws ANOTHER spanner into the works...closed system...
so it operates under pressure?? have you posted any specific info on your system MattyHN?? my burner has a vent...on the back...that whistles occasionally...lol...should i just put a cork in it??? (i know i know...i am really leaving myself open on this one)
and woodman adds "properly grounding" the burner....something i never considered...are you inferring the use of "grounding" as in the same thing as grounding your electrical panel?? is this to prevent electrolysis??
sigh...more and more complicated...so much info...and all very GOOD info...file it away in the archives for future use...
boilerman...you prolly are not even close to 100 years old...i just had a laugh in your previous post where you correlated your age to the use of less wood...lol...
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MattyNH throws ANOTHER spanner into the works...closed system...
so it operates under pressure?? have you posted any specific info on your system MattyHN?? my burner has a vent...on the back...that whistles occasionally...lol...should i just put a cork in it??? (i know i know...i am really leaving myself open on this one)
and woodman adds "properly grounding" the burner....something i never considered...are you inferring the use of "grounding" as in the same thing as grounding your electrical panel?? is this to prevent electrolysis??
sigh...more and more complicated...so much info...and all very GOOD info...file it away in the archives for future use...
boilerman...you prolly are not even close to 100 years old...i just had a laugh in your previous post where you correlated your age to the use of less wood...lol...
I can tell you have no clue about hydronics...Look it up on the web sight..The link for the aqua-therm is on this forum..Click on it it..It will tell you all the info you want..
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MattyNH throws ANOTHER spanner into the works...closed system...
so it operates under pressure?? have you posted any specific info on your system MattyHN?? my burner has a vent...on the back...that whistles occasionally...lol...should i just put a cork in it??? (i know i know...i am really leaving myself open on this one)
and woodman adds "properly grounding" the burner....something i never considered...are you inferring the use of "grounding" as in the same thing as grounding your electrical panel?? is this to prevent electrolysis??
sigh...more and more complicated...so much info...and all very GOOD info...file it away in the archives for future use...
boilerman...you prolly are not even close to 100 years old...i just had a laugh in your previous post where you correlated your age to the use of less wood...lol...
Yes, I installed a seperate ground rod next to the boiler and have it attached to the framework of the unit. This is to prevent electrolysis and is a warrenty requirement.
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::)MattyNH....the list is LONG and diverse as to things I have no clue about...I will just chalk hydronics up as ANOTHER...I will read about the aqua-therm...one thing about having not much in my head...there is plenty 'o' room to put stuff in...lol...vs
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MattyNH throws ANOTHER spanner into the works...closed system...
so it operates under pressure?? have you posted any specific info on your system MattyHN?? my burner has a vent...on the back...that whistles occasionally...lol...should i just put a cork in it??? (i know i know...i am really leaving myself open on this one)
and woodman adds "properly grounding" the burner....something i never considered...are you inferring the use of "grounding" as in the same thing as grounding your electrical panel?? is this to prevent electrolysis??
sigh...more and more complicated...so much info...and all very GOOD info...file it away in the archives for future use...
boilerman...you prolly are not even close to 100 years old...i just had a laugh in your previous post where you correlated your age to the use of less wood...lol...
Is the grounding rod not primarily for lightning protection? Otherwise you have a big metal lightning attractor feeding your main panel in the house.
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::)MattyNH....the list is LONG and diverse as to things I have no clue about...I will just chalk hydronics up as ANOTHER...I will read about the aqua-therm...one thing about having not much in my head...there is plenty 'o' room to put stuff in...lol...vs
Wow the list of OWB brand is that long on this forum??..The brands of owb are listed alphabetical order!
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Matty, he is saying that the list of things that he knows nothing about is long not the list of OWB. I am in the same boat about things that I know nothing about LOL
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;D Bet I know WAY less about WAY more than YOU Bull!!!! :bash: lol...
the funny thing is...I have been using one of these for 10 years...I really never started to research the entire process until now...the time when I have to replace the unit...dont get me wrong...I have looked up specific elements like what additives (if any) should go into the water...even THAT subject is exhaustively debated...it is the "system" as a whole that I need to figger out...
I realize it is a niche market and that really most knowledge gained is empirical in nature and done through trial and error...but MattyNH had a good point about closed systems...I often wonder if there might be a way to "change" the molecular properties of the water by the use of additives and thereby creating a "pseudo" closed system...I know all kinds of wonderful things happen in hydrology when you pressurize a system...the same as a car or truck engine...vs
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Im not the the type of person on here to say what brand is the best and never will....Im a huge fan of these OWB's..Way to go, burn wood!.. I do own a closed loop OWB for the last 5 yrs..6th year of heating coming this fall...Being a owner of a closed loop system..I don't have to deal with maintenance of the water like the "open" owb, I have no heat exchangers, can add antifreeze ..My OWB is no different than my oil boiler in my basement except the fuel..Runs the same psi 15-20..Has the same relief valves, everything..Back in '08 lost power for 32 hrs (ice storm)..Had a live fire in my boiler with no circulating water..Never had a problem..To me.. hydronic wise it makes sense..Looking forward to aqua-therm's epa phase 2 stoves soon..( no I'm not a dealer just a satisfied owb user) Burn wood! ;D
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ok MattyNH...did some reading on Aqua Therm....I get the principle of the closed system...i guess my first question is are there any drawbacks?? I have always laboured under the assumption that if you make something better or best...people will beat a path to your door...and there will be competitors lined up waiting to make patent infringements...I am not speaking "specifically" about Aqua Therm here...I know there are other closed systems (Seton being one I think)...but WHY are not all manufacturers going the direction of closed systems??
I appreciate that you are trying to remain neutral...and I am trying to open my mind and broaden my horizons...I dont mind going off the tried and true if I think there is good reason...also...I am not trying to make you write an advertisement for Aqua Therm..but you seem to know your stuff...can you impart some knowledge?? thx...vs
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vagabonddreamer.. Yeah your right Seton is a closed loop wood boiler..Buderus also offers a closed loop wood boiler.. Ive actually seen the Buderus hooked up in a basement..Theres another one can't think of the name of it..The guy has it in his garage..Heats his whole house and garage by radiant heat.. Far as drawbacks really can't think of any..Its a sealed system..100% safe
I have no idea why all manufactures don't have a close loop model..They don't make a "open" oil boiler..Maybe like Central Boiler is big due to advertisement power..Either way the "open" and "closed "system OWB works the same..Its just you need to maintain the water chemistry on the open system and if you don't it will void your warranty!
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I think pressured boilers have to be installed by licensed/registered mehanical contractors? Open systems can be installed by anyone (homeowner).
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I think woodman is correct. A pressurized system should be installed and maintained by someone with a pressurized vessel (boiler) license. If not, your insurance company may have an out. I just downloaded a copy of Aquatherm's owners manual. Their warranty is on the back back page. It states that their "corrosion inhibitor must be used and maintained for Warranty to remain in effect" pretty much looks the same as most of the "open" system mfg's. If you are not using it, you may have problems....Page 45 in their Manual also states that "every 3 years you are to have pressure relief valves inspected by a licensed plumbing contractor or authorized inspection agency." It also states the safety relief valves must be operated at least once per year... In my opion, I think these are the reasons the pressurized systems have not become very popular... The open systems are simpler to install, maintain and possibly safer.
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I think pressured boilers have to be installed by licensed/registered mehanical contractors? Open systems can be installed by anyone (homeowner).
Don't think thats true.. Know a few people that did it themselves 100%..They arnt plumbers
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Pressurized vs unpressurized is an interesting debate. I cannot think of any benifits to pressurized as far as hydronics. I would be interested if anyone knows of any. The uinpressurized systems seem inherantly simpler and safer. There is really no mechanism for failure. Do the pressurized systems still work at 170-180F temperatures? They would have the benifit of operating at higher temperatures or even going to steam.
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Pressurized vs unpressurized is an interesting debate. I cannot think of any benifits to pressurized as far as hydronics. I would be interested if anyone knows of any. The uinpressurized systems seem inherantly simpler and safer. There is really no mechanism for failure. Do the pressurized systems still work at 170-180F temperatures? They would have the benifit of operating at higher temperatures or even going to steam.
I take it you don't know hydronics..Your oil/ propane boiler in your basement with forced hot water or radiant heating if you have one..its a close system. (heck your hot water holding tank is a closed system on that note).All indoor wood boilers are a close system..If they were a "open" system in your basement..You would have on hell of a moisture problem in the basement due to they are vented to the air..
Yes pressurized systems still work at 170-180.. My owb water temp when running which is 7 months out of a yr is 180-185..Yes i could set it at lower temp..But regardless of what ever setting temp desired (includes a "open" system)..It works no harder if it was set at a lower temp..Gonna burn the same amount of wood or work just as hard for what ever temp set..All boilers have a certain degree differential for "on and "off"
Far a safeness like was mentioned..There is 2 relief valves on the OWB.. Plus a honneywell thermostat which it comes with (OWB) and then installed on the oil boiler then hooked into the control box..So if the 2 relief valves fail on the owb and the water temp get above 210F (which I'm set at) water temp..My upstairs heat automatically comes on to dump the heat.. 5 yrs going never had a "bypass" problem...Plus you have all the relief valves on the oil boiler.( Im directly hooked to my oil boiler no heat exchanger needed for forced hot water)
Boilerman: Ive never had a plumbing contractor inspect the relief valves.. The manual states "should" not "have" like you posted ..In fact replaced one myself last fall cause it was leaking..Not sure what the hell insurance companies have to do with it..Far as the "corrosion inhibitor" all thats for is the ph if needed..
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Hey Matty, I don't know a lot about pressurized OWF's so I googled an Aquatherm Owners manual and tried to share the info in it.
I personally don't like the extra risks and issues of a pressurized OWF system, but hey, to each their own.
Here is the link to the Aquatherm Owners Manual I found:
akwarmwood.com/products/docs/AQUA-THERM%20MANUAL%20(0108).pdf
Page 45 is where they discuss saftey percausions and recommendations.
The final page is their warranty, where they say owner must use corrosion inhibitor or void warranty.
Does not matter to me if you follow them or not. You may know more than the manufacture. I'm rather anal about reading owners manuals and following instructions, especially when it comes to safety and warranty concerns. I just felt readers should make their own decisions based on manufactures recommendations.
As to what insurance companies have to do with anything..........if an owner installs himself incorrectly and does not have record of proper maintenance, insurance companies are often quick to point the errors out if a problem happens and the owner may be hung out to dry. The way I read the owners manual, if operator has a water jacket problem and no corrosion inhibitor was used or maintained, you are on your own on that one too.
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Hey Matty, I don't know a lot about pressurized OWF's so I googled an Aquatherm Owners manual and tried to share the info in it.
I personally don't like the extra risks and issues of a pressurized OWF system, but hey, to each their own.
Here is the link to the Aquatherm Owners Manual I found:
akwarmwood.com/products/docs/AQUA-THERM%20MANUAL%20(0108).pdf
Page 45 is where they discuss saftey percausions and recommendations.
The final page is their warranty, where they say owner must use corrosion inhibitor or void warranty.
Does not matter to me if you follow them or not. You may know more than the manufacture. I'm rather anal about reading owners manuals and following instructions, especially when it comes to safety and warranty concerns. I just felt readers should make their own decisions based on manufactures recommendations.
As to what insurance companies have to do with anything..........if an owner installs himself incorrectly and does not have record of proper maintenance, insurance companies are often quick to point the errors out if a problem happens and the owner may be hung out to dry. The way I read the owners manual, if operator has a water jacket problem and no corrosion inhibitor was used or maintained, you are on your own on that one too.
Hey Boilerman...Your definitely in-titled to your opinion on what type of OWB you prefer...Like you said to each there own. I have the paperback manual for my OWB..I wanna make one point on the manuals on these OWB's or any manual on that matter..OWB roughly cost 10k when its all said and done..Your new vehicle in your driveway probably cost 20k or more.I do not know one person that sticks to the car manual for the life of the vehicle or in fact on anything they own! Its pretty hard to stick to the manual..If you were to stick to the manual and had a problem..I bet the manufacture would still try to find something saying its your fault on a big claim
Far as insurance companies..It varies from state to state..Ill give a good example..A home owner in the state of NH can wire there own house with no electrical license..All you have to do is get it inspected by the town or city when done..Nothing to do with insurance..Maybe in your state insurance is the mother hen of what you can and can't do..But in NH not the case..Heck there's no seat belt law in NH for adults.. Being a odd law state is guess thats why we have the "Live Free Or Die" motto
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Not to offend, but It should be "Live free and Die" in the "Granite head state" we live in Matty. As an Electrician who worked hard to obtain an Electrical License in NH, it is unbelieveable that any homeowner can install wiring in their own residence without some kind of knowledge in the electrical trade. No inspection needed if the residence is already occupied and the work is done without a permit. Never mind the fact that most Inspectors are not even Licensed Electricians. All is fine and good until that same house gets sold with an advertisement of " new wiring". BY WHO? You may have bought a firetrap wired by happy homeowner who knows nothing about Electrical code ( happens to be the minimum standard of safe wiring). I also believe one needs a license to install a pressure heating system in NH. Unless it is done (covert) without permit or inspector. Not for sure but a plumbers license has diffrent catagories like gas and heating systems. Remember the family in Moultonboro who had their house explode killing their daughter from a faulty gas install, I believe that prompted the Gas install licensing law in NH. Always make sure pressure relief valves work properly, especially if your temps exceed boiling temps. All is good if your systems are used as your own and not sold to some unsuspecting buyer who thinks the systems are installed by professionals when in fact they are not. Just my opinion.
It is unbelieveable....My owb boiler was hooked up my a plumber..I just laid the piping and stuff.. And I agree
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:)lol...dont get me going on electricians...they squeal if anybody touches wire...but will butcher a truss pretending to be a carpenter and all is well!!! black to back white to white...how complicated is THAT :bash:lol...
so back to the boilers...i am in even MORE of a quandary since i started the post!! have not made a decision re pressure/non pressure as there are valid points on both...the next thing i have noted is there is a significant move towards "round" fire chambers...whaddaya guys think about the validity of less welds in the fire chamber...if it is seamless schedule pipe like they use in the oil patch...do you think there is less chance of leaks??? i know that the question can be answered to a certain extent based on the ability of the welder...the owb that i use now...i have re-welded several times...it almost looks like the original welder was running too hot...made the metal brittle...i also think the steel itself might be suspect...vs