Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: gandgracing on January 06, 2013, 08:04:24 PM
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I've got a short run of pipe (40') that runs to my shop and it doesn't melt the snow around the black pipe that comes out of the ground to go inside, but the run that goes to the house (75') is melting snow at its deepest spot (around 3.5'). I've got the pipe that is wrapped about 3-4 times with that foil insulation inside a 4" pipe. I'm sure this is not helping at all but any idea how much heat I could be loosing from this? This whole boiler thing from the beginning has been a disaster and a money pit. This wouldn't be that big of a deal if I hadn't gone through all the trouble with Shaver. I really dont see how they are still in business. So whats the best pipe to get?
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I've installed miles of the 3 wrap, ive even installed it above ground and saw snow laying on it not melting
However, keep in mind there is huge differences in the quality of some of these 3 and 5 wraps
It's hard telling what you have if it came from shaver
5 wrap is extremely hard to beat for heat loss, but not all is created equal
If you want foam filled logstor is the way to go, it's foam filled and very expensive, but as far as heat loss, not any different than a quality 5 wrap I carry
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I've got a short run of pipe (40') that runs to my shop and it doesn't melt the snow around the black pipe that comes out of the ground to go inside, but the run that goes to the house (75') is melting snow at its deepest spot (around 3.5'). I've got the pipe that is wrapped about 3-4 times with that foil insulation inside a 4" pipe. I'm sure this is not helping at all but any idea how much heat I could be loosing from this? This whole boiler thing from the beginning has been a disaster and a money pit. This wouldn't be that big of a deal if I hadn't gone through all the trouble with Shaver. I really dont see how they are still in business. So whats the best pipe to get?
you wont know how much heat you are losing until you can get an accurate GPM going through the pipe and water temps leaving the OWB and water temps returning to the OWB when there is no load on the system
the type of pipe you describe is wonderfull stuff as long as you can keep it dry if the outer pipe gets a crack in it or a hole and water penetrates it the insulation value where the water lays is about 0
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Willie is right, proper installation of it is also a major key
Deeper is not better, you don't want it down into the mucky wet soil, you want it to be as deep as your area will allow, without getting into wet soil. If it's down in water logged soil, the water will wick away heat much faster than will dry soil.
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The pipe was purchased on eBay and seemed to be quality material. So the only thing I can really do at this point is wait until the heating season is over and then dig it up. It has to have a crack in it. You can see where the snow has melted for about 20-25 feet. Not good.
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How long has it been buried? Is the sod in thst area very thin?
I've seen folks think there line was losing heat when it was actually snow just not sticking as well to fresh soil
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This is the 4th year it's been buried and its a definite line where the lines are.
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Did you not notice this in years past?
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I did notice it a little last year but kind of forgot about it until this last snow we got.
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Have you noticed a big increase in wood use?
My neighbors hardy has melted snow for 24 years now lol, I mean melts too, the snow never ever sticks where his lines run, not even when it's below 0
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Have you noticed a big increase in wood use?
My neighbors hardy has melted snow for 24 years now lol, I mean melts too, the snow never ever sticks where his lines run, not even when it's below 0
my old pipes did this after the plastic pipe was compromised, my wood consuption went up untill i was melting snow the whole length of the underground lines. my lines are 250 feet one way..when i went to logstor pipes i saved 4 bush cord the first year
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Yea. I carry logstor as well, seems most folks just want tp get by cheap though
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Have you noticed a big increase in wood use?
My neighbors hardy has melted snow for 24 years now lol, I mean melts too, the snow never ever sticks where his lines run, not even when it's below 0
my old pipes did this after the plastic pipe was compromised, my wood consuption went up untill i was melting snow the whole length of the underground lines. my lines are 250 feet one way..when i went to logstor pipes i saved 4 bush cord the first year
i might add taht i am only in my second year with the logstor pipe so i can't say it will hold up any better then my old stuff (it was good for 4 years) then slowly got worse. only time will tell but i think the closed cell foam would have a lot longer life span if the outer jacket were to be compromised?
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i have some snow melt but I do not think I am losing heat from my pipes but through the pipe acting as a chimney. I sprayed foam into the pipe but need to do a better job Wood consumption does not seem excess. My other line with the same pipe to another building does not melt at all.
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I have a forty foot run or so to my house from my stove and it melts the snow also. I just purchased the house with the stove already installed in May. I'm not sure what pipe I have I'll have to look. My pipe I think is only about 2 ft down.
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i have some snow melt but I do not think I am losing heat from my pipes but through the pipe acting as a chimney. I sprayed foam into the pipe but need to do a better job Wood consumption does not seem excess. My other line with the same pipe to another building does not melt at all.
Acting as a chimney? Huh
If your melting snow the heat is coming from the lines, I doubt you'd pull enough air put to amount to anything, stick a rag in it and see
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Is it possible to just replace and splice the insulated line just inside the house? I have about 40 feet of run inside that I don't see any reason to replace. If need be.
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Yes of course.... How many feet of underground do you actually need?
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I'll have to measure it to be sure but my stove is only about 40-50 ft from my house.
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I'm no expert nor do I claim to be but if you think there is a problem with your underground pipes you need to know for sure before you buy new and dig up and replace , How you ask? , simple, buy 4 1 inch T's, buy 4 of these http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/660/pasco-temperature-gauge (http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/660/pasco-temperature-gauge) and put them in your line with the T's leaving the OWB , coming into your house and one in the return coming back to your OWB and you will know what kind of heat loss you have for sure instead of guessing, WillieG referenced this in the 3rd post
just makes sense to me , less than 50 dollars and you will know for sure
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If he's melting more snow every year that's a pretty good sign...
I was really curious if he'd noticed an increase in wood use as well....
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I use to melt snow....but not anymore. I replaced my lines over the summer. I still have snow in my yard from 2 weeks ago...and no indication of were my lines are running. But most importantly I'm using less wood.
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I'll have to measure it to be sure but my stove is only about 40-50 ft from my house.
if we were to say that you were losing heat the whole length of your pipe (50 feet) we couls also say that a 3/4 inch slant fin baseboard heater gives of (at 170 degrees) about 500 btu per foot (your underground lines would be at least that if not more if they are water logged) so 50 feet times 500 btu would be around 25,000 btu per hour that would likely heat a small home. i dont assume you are losing that much heat as the lines are not likely all water logged but i am just posting this so you will know what the potential loss per foot of compromised pipe might be (and that is in the area of 500 btu per foot)
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Well mine has no snow of frost the entire length from my stove to where it comes out of the ground and enters the house. I'll get a infrared and check it.
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I should have explained I have 2 sets of lines running in my trench(stove and hot tub),plus i do not have any temp drop from the stove. Only melt is at the ends about 10 ft
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Got a little snow last night and you can just see the snow melting.
(http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w446/gandgracing/19DD2C06-E82C-4E9A-A55D-455EA547C6B4-3492-0000077C60740E57.jpg)
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I think it depends on the outside temp last year I never saw snow melt over my pipe but a few weeks ago it did made a perfect path but it was around freezing, this week temps 5-20 degrees and no melting, I have the CB insulated pex
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I think it depends on the outside temp last year I never saw snow melt over my pipe but a few weeks ago it did made a perfect path but it was around freezing, this week temps 5-20 degrees and no melting, I have the CB insulated pex
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Melting the snow is the signs of an obvious problem..... Willie has shown some calculations on here before that will baffle you at how much heat you could be losing. I've got just your basic 3 wrap on mine, it's about 18-24" deep and I see no snow melt
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I think it depends on the outside temp last year I never saw snow melt over my pipe but a few weeks ago it did made a perfect path but it was around freezing, this week temps 5-20 degrees and no melting, I have the CB insulated pex
i would say it's time to investigate..water temp leaving teh OWB and water temp entering the house- if possable measure with a thermometer by draining al ittle water at the boiler and then soing the same thing in the house if you can
if you can get an accurate temp difference and can figure out your GPM running in the line you can then equate your heat loss fairly close
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One thing I've noticed on various delivery systems is that when you have a wet fall going in to freeze up, you are more prone to seeing snowmelt as the extra ground moisture is a great conductor of any heat coming off the shell of the delviery system. During a dry fall leading into freeze up, you see much less. If you get water in your delivery system you are toast and will experience huge ground heat loss. This Fall we were bone dry and with just 6 inches of dirt over my foam style Thermopex and there is no sign of snowmelt whatsoever right now............just snow.
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Melting the snow is the signs of an obvious problem..... Willie has shown some calculations on here before that will baffle you at how much heat you could be losing. I've got just your basic 3 wrap on mine, it's about 18-24" deep and I see no snow melt
What is 3 wrap?? I have the CB pex about 18-24 inches deep and have never seen any melting.
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Boilerman I like you comment it makes sense
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Melting the snow is the signs of an obvious problem..... Willie has shown some calculations on here before that will baffle you at how much heat you could be losing. I've got just your basic 3 wrap on mine, it's about 18-24" deep and I see no snow melt
What is 3 wrap?? I have the CB pex about 18-24 inches deep and have never seen any melting.
It's just your standard insulated pipe, has 3 wraps of low e insulation surrounding your pex lines, it's what most folks buy
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I'm looking at your picture and I'm not seeing your snow melt ? , anyway Willie is right on the money , find out what your temps are at the various locations and seeing if you are indeed loosing heat , several ways to do this, boilerman makes good points , your snow melt may not be due to lines loosing heat , I understand it usually is and can be but before you make a several thousand decision have the facts in hand , not an educated guess
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It was in the high 20's here today and this is what my lines are doing.
(http://C:Users\Dad\Desktop\Image_056.jpg)
(http://C:Users\Dad\Desktop\Image_057.jpg)
[attachment deleted by admin for space issues]
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In my opinion your def loosing to much heat, what line did u use?
Boiler man is correct about that, the moisture content of the soil, that's why I always say don't go down into the muck because wetter soil wicks heat much faster than dry
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The boiler was already installed when we bought the house last spring. It looks like pex with a couple of layers of foil wrap inside the lack pipe.
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The boiler was already installed when we bought the house last spring. It looks like pex with a couple of layers of foil wrap inside the lack pipe.
I suspect it's probably either a home made pex package or a cheap made product.
Also not crazy about how it comes out of the ground so much, not because of heat loss but uv degradation will eventually cause it to crack, especially if a weed eater hits it...
Might be something to look at upgrading
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The boiler was already installed when we bought the house last spring. It looks like pex with a couple of layers of foil wrap inside the lack pipe.
I suspect it's probably either a home made pex package or a cheap made product.
Also not crazy about how it comes out of the ground so much, not because of heat loss but uv degradation will eventually cause it to crack, especially if a weed eater hits it...
if the pex exits teh ground are the ends covered so no water from a rain could enter it? if water gets in from above ground it probably is not getting out anywhere and thsu could be causing the ground melt now?
Might be something to look at upgrading
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Will the better grade make a tighter bend? This stuff doesn't look to flexible. I suspect that's why they have so much of it out of the ground it runs about a foot or so onto the house before the black pipe stops.
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Will the better grade make a tighter bend? This stuff doesn't look to flexible. I suspect that's why they have so much of it out of the ground it runs about a foot or so onto the house before the black pipe stops.
Why is it ran through the wall?? I'm not understanding why it was done this way...
When I saw it installed like that I thought to myself it shouldn't have been done that way, sometimes you have to come out, but I can't see why yours was. Kinda makes me think it may have been a self install with home made line
Flexible? Heck no, it's all stiff as a poker!
If your considering fixing the line, you may want to fix the exposed part as well, I feel you'll be rewarded well for your efforts.
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Probably because it was easier to core through the rim board of the house than poured wall. I'll look into it this spring after I shut her down. Thanks for all the advice.
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Well if you don't want to go through the poured wall, dig the ditch deeper by the house a bit, and then use metal stealing and tap cons to pull it in tight against the house, then you could easily make a box to protect it
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Drilling a hole through is not that bad, I rented the drill and the bit from homedepot
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we have had a bunch of rain in the past few days and now freezing temps again..the ground is wet. the next little skiff of snow should tell you (anyone) if you have any heat loss issues with your underground lines. the earth around your lines will be about as moist as will ever be and if we get a skiff of snow and you see it melting i would wager a guess you have more heat loss than you should think is "normal" this is about as good of test you can get (other than measuring temps with an accurate tool and measuring the same way at each end
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Here is a pic of my pipe
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Johnny, what kinda pump are you running? That is some bad melt, ive only seen manufactured line do that if it were soaked.
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I get that with my line too. My line crosses my driveway. As a result I get a shallow trench as the ground over the pipe sits lower and the ground on either side heaves due to frost. I didn't think it was a problem the first year as the ground was still soft due to burying the pipes just before winter. Very little time to pack it in. But I see it every year. I'm using 1" CB Thermopex. Both ends are high and dry. Not to say that the line isn't exposed to water underground, I have a feeling it is but there was not much I could do about it. Line is only about 2 to 2 1/2' deep.
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I get that with my line too. My line crosses my driveway. As a result I get a shallow trench as the ground over the pipe sits lower and the ground on either side heaves due to frost. I didn't think it was a problem the first year as the ground was still soft due to burying the pipes just before winter. Very little time to pack it in. But I see it every year. I'm using 1" CB Thermopex. Both ends are high and dry. Not to say that the line isn't exposed to water underground, I have a feeling it is but there was not much I could do about it. Line is only about 2 to 2 1/2' deep.
i don't know downeast...some dealers claim that snow will not melt on an above ground (temporary) installation?
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Johnny, what kinda pump are you running? That is some bad melt, ive only seen manufactured line do that if it were soaked.
I meant line sheww
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I get that with my line too. My line crosses my driveway. As a result I get a shallow trench as the ground over the pipe sits lower and the ground on either side heaves due to frost. I didn't think it was a problem the first year as the ground was still soft due to burying the pipes just before winter. Very little time to pack it in. But I see it every year. I'm using 1" CB Thermopex. Both ends are high and dry. Not to say that the line isn't exposed to water underground, I have a feeling it is but there was not much I could do about it. Line is only about 2 to 2 1/2' deep.
i don't know downeast...some dealers claim that snow will not melt on an above ground (temporary) installation?
Willie, next time we get a snow and I'm home I'll take a pic of a section of line where it goes into my house,
It's exposed and this morning it had 3" of snow on it,
I would go out and take pics now but were away on a small trip, it's plain old 3 wrap
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Scott i don't doubt that is true..i was just meaning to get the point across that if this happens and he is melting snow with his undergorund pipes then it would appear his lines have been compromised some what
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I think the outside temp and mosture level of the ground are a few big factors I don, t see any melting when temps are in the teens but once it gets around near melting point 30-32ish is when I get the line.