Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: yoderheating on January 12, 2014, 06:32:53 PM
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I've been glancing through what has been coming out of the EPA and was wondering what others thought about it. What kind of impact will this have on the market? http://www2.epa.gov/residential-wood-heaters/proposed-new-source-performance-standards-residential-wood-heaters (http://www2.epa.gov/residential-wood-heaters/proposed-new-source-performance-standards-residential-wood-heaters)
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I think that it has the potential to double the price of a qualifying unit to meet the step 2 standard since yet AGAIN the manufacturers are going to have to somehow redesign these things to meet a ridiculously low amount of PM emissions AND have to go through the whole qualifying phases again which cost these companies an arm and a leg in the first place.
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Socialism folks get ready and use to it. They wanna financially cripple us to where we cannot justify spending the money for alternative heat. Thus we will be stuck with oil.
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I also agree its not good government but we have had plenty of posts about that before. I'm curious what the industry is going to look like in 2015. Are some manufactures just going to stop producing furnaces? Are some going to attempt to somehow get a coal only label to get around the rules? And my biggest question is there any dealer out there that thinks they can make a living selling high priced phase 2 furnaces? I'm thinking there is no way I could sell enough of them to earn a living.
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Lots of boilers going in sheds or barns around here so they dont have to deal with the red tape
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What would putting them in a shed do?
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Lots of boilers going in sheds or barns around here so they dont have to deal with the red tape
Yea but it would be to hard to sell someone a building and a stove both. Its all Big socialism mess.
I strongly encourage anyone whos got an old unit, or someone whos on the fence or knows folks on the fence to act fast. Once this is finalized I can see many folks selling out of unite and there being a shortage. We are also not going to be able to sell leftover units in 2015 so its gonna be a mess.
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We gotta thank folks like woodmaster for trying to ram this thing through. There all for it, they think everyone will run out and buy a 20k flex fuel install once it passes.
Everyone has forgot there roots and why this industry was successful to begin with
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Just so everyone is clear about what is coming. If this is finalized ( and I see no reason why it will not be) companies like Acme, Shaver, Earth ect will not have a furnace they can legally sell in 2015. At that point I assume all the smaller manufactures will go out of business and with them any warranty that went with the furnaces they have sold. Companies like mine and Scott's will be faced with the decision of whether to stay in business. Just sounds like a complete nightmare for both companies and customers.
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To help pass the word around, I just posted this information on my FaceBook account. The more people know the better. Roger
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the states still have to "adopt" the new standards like last time? Or is this language written differently where it will automatically become "federl" law of the land? Because I think at last count, only 5 or 6 states have adopted Phase II language, right?
Either way, this is a bunch of bologna! I don't understand how they can claim all these health concerns, when the people these stove are the "worst" for is our OWN FAMILIES since they are on our own property!! My "particulate matter" isn't bothering ANYONE!! These stoves aren't meant for "in town" usage, and even then, I say leave it up to each community what they want in their towns. Man this is so frustrating!
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No before it was voluntary and some states adopted it, this time we are talking about federal law without the states being involved.
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I spent 2 years of my life fighting it here in the socialist state of Maine and got nowhere, there is an agenda here in this country and there is only one way to fight it, LIBERTY FOR ALL. Best of luck guys, now you know what I've been talking about since joining the forum. You will find the real pushers of this agenda to be the wood pellet industry not oil and gas.
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The EPA has been doing this for years with the small engine industry because weedwackers and push lawn mowers are HUGE pollution machines. My father in law owns a small engine business and said that this year they are going to have to buy the computers to program the small engines since they are all moving to fuel injection controlled by a programmable cdi. People wonder why they have to buy a $200 weedwacker or have their lawn mower serviced at the tune of $70 an hour.
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By the way if you are interested in the way this country was designed, it was designed for the states to have individual rights with little rights controlled by the federal government. This was so that the PEOPLE could control their country and keep their rights. It is much easier to fight tyranny on a smaller scale in the local state government. The founding fathers knew that it would be very difficult to fight it on the federal level. This is what the democrats want, they want to control you from a far because of the fact that it is impossible for you to fight it.
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I'm all for freedom and lord knows I've done my fair share in the political arena combating the progressive slide away from individual rights.
But my real question here is what will the landscape look like. Will there be thousands of furnace owners out there who suddenly have no warranty or dealer to call for help or parts. I was hoping to get some opinions from folks like Slim, Scott and RSI.
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This is ridiculous. It worries me because my Hardy is 14 years old and I had planned on using it as long as I could and then purchasing a new stove when that time comes. Now I feel like if they pass these laws I won't be able to afford a new stove if they are going to be 15k. :bash:
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I don't think you will see them at 15k for a few years yet, maybe more like 10k. After 2020 it may be 15k if they are even available at all. At some point I'm wondering if they will have to be combo units that use propane or oil to reburn the smoke to get it clean enough.
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Yoder, we went through it 6-7 years ago here in Maine, it crippled the industry back then, there were some really good conventional boilers on the market back then. I sold Wood Doctor and it was a well built product, then came the gassers, WD had one of the first on the market (not tested ) the energy converter, it was a good boiler but fell on it's face when it came to staying together, major corrosion problems, when I saw the problems coming I let Arthur Turple know and he buried his head in the sand, I thiink he saw it all coming and simply wanted to ride it out as long as it would last, he as much as anybody gave the gasser industry a bad name ( if you are reading this Arthur, we will meet again ) the industry has come a long way, most manufacturers will stick with it to a point, as long as you are sure they are here to stay then don't be afraid to stay in the game, I think the key is that if they listen to what is happening in the field, we as an industry can overcome what the pellet manufacturers are trying to screw us out of, yes it is coming from the pellet manufacturers and not oil, gas or coal, it is the alternative energy market bidding for that almighty federal grant money!!!!!!!
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By putting the stoves in the barns it becomes an indoor boiler and they have no say what you do
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Yoder, we went through it 6-7 years ago here in Maine, it crippled the industry back then, there were some really good conventional boilers on the market back then. I sold Wood Doctor and it was a well built product, then came the gassers, WD had one of the first on the market (not tested ) the energy converter, it was a good boiler but fell on it's face when it came to staying together, major corrosion problems, when I saw the problems coming I let Arthur Turple know and he buried his head in the sand, I thiink he saw it all coming and simply wanted to ride it out as long as it would last, he as much as anybody gave the gasser industry a bad name ( if you are reading this Arthur, we will meet again ) the industry has come a long way, most manufacturers will stick with it to a point, as long as you are sure they are here to stay then don't be afraid to stay in the game, I think the key is that if they listen to what is happening in the field, we as an industry can overcome what the pellet manufacturers are trying to screw us out of, yes it is coming from the pellet manufacturers and not oil, gas or coal, it is the alternative energy market bidding for that almighty federal grant money!!!!!!!
I remember seeing the wood doctors display in the past..
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By putting the stoves in the barns it becomes an indoor boiler and they have no say what you do
Not true with this legislation, it will cover far more than outdoor units. Its very broad and will effect the entire cordwood burning industry.
Its all a Big mess, hate all of it
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Fireboss
First most outdoor boilers do not even have an UL rating for indoor use and just putting them indoors doesn't change that in the epa's mind. Second, the only exemptions I have noticed were for coal, oil and gas furnaces and fireplaces.
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In regard to stove costs, yea heatmaster will have units under 8k but when folks start wanting to heat 5000sq ft theyll probably be spending well over 15k soon enough
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Sounds like I need to hone my welding skills so if I ever need another stove, I'll just build my own and dare someone to tell me I can't use it to keep my family warm. I know that doesn't help you dealers out there but it's what a lot of folks with the means will do. Once again, the losers will be you small business guys out there trying to beat in an honest living with big brother kicking your tale. I'm hoping my P&M lasts forever but the welder is ready if I need it!!! Good luck to everyone.
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Woodwalker, I applaud your self reliant nature, did you ever hear the story behind RUBY RIDGE. I am currently trying to get an ammendment through the DEP here in Maine to get around the rules on OWB's to allow a homeowner to build his own boiler, that's right in this socialist state it is against the law to build your own boiler and use it on your own land if it does not have an EPA phase 2 tag on it. Do you guys and gals have any idea what it costs to take a boiler from the napkin to EPA phase 2 approval, it's no wonder we are in trouble here in this country.
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here in ct, i spoke w/ head of the owf/pollution division. if you put an outdoor furnace inside a shed, it then turns the "entire" shed into an owf, thus you fall back into the regulations of the owf. also speaking w/ him he had no concern or care that it was a phase 2 and refered all their problems back to traditional smoky owf. our laws here havent been changed or updated in almost 10 years regarding owf's and thats not a good thing.
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If its in a shed how are they gonna no its a owb it wood be a wood stove for all they no ,they can't come on your land
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Fireboss,
The real question I would have is where are you going to buy the furnace to put in your shed? The new regs give dealers 60 days to move instock traditional furnaces and then they are not allowed to sell them. Do you think a dealer like myself is willing to take the risk of stocking illegal furnaces?
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Ah im sure I will be able to find a billy bob stove on craigslist when the time comes. People will still go against the laws its just human nature to survive.
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When does the 60 days start to liquidate inventory?
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This just really sucks.
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As long as victor is around ain't nothing coming to a halt.
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They can have my stick of wood when they pry it out of my cold dead hand, lol! But right now thanks to my owb it's a warm hand. Long live the owb.
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Here in Michigan, they have the right to inspect all taxable property, inside and out. If they want in or on they just call in the proper paperwork. Most of the time it's the neighbors that start the initial call. And all that is, is some stupid yuppie that didn't like what they seen when they drove by. There are already people that drive around the burbs looking for smoke. I'm sorry that's more like riding their $10,000 bicycle in the middle of the dirt roads in the country. Upper macomb and Oakland specifically. I guess the multimillion dollar paved bike trails aren't good enough for them.
It is a sad shame, but their is also a law that allows you to build items that don't meet code. The Home Depots sell lots of plumbing and electrical parts that don't comply. I don't know if this will apply or not. You can't pass a law to put someone out of business. Being licensed is where you have less say, yet are more liable. A handyman is not , as far as trades go.
I don't know if I would get too worried about whether they will still be built. There are many wood burning devices that have and do already comply with the low emissions and particulate. Cat stoves, lambda controlled wood boilers, and a few gasification boilers. It might actually bring the price of those down if they all have to have that to be clean. Heck a lot of these OWB's are burning pretty good results in the lab, if they can improve operator in field performance then it might not be all that hard.
I still despise market manipulation , treehuggers, and liberal morons that squeal so much and push politically correct trash into law. When in many cases it never effects or applies to them. I'm sure many of you have read some of the stupidest comments on youtube OWB videos from said cidiots,treehuggers, libs,etc...
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What I believe will drive prices higher is the standards that start 5 years after phase 2 become mandatory. There are no batch wood outdoor furnaces on the market at this time that will meet that standard. I feel confident some companies will be able to develop one but its going to cost hundreds of thousands and possibly millions to do so. And of course those funds will have to come from profits off of phase 2 furnaces.
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Well said Yoder!
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Here in Michigan, they have the right to inspect all taxable property, inside and out. If they want in or on they just call in the proper paperwork.
Sounds to me like that law is in violation of the 4 Amendment. :bash:
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Yoder iam just saying that's what guys are doing around here already so.e towns are cracking down on the owb
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With these new regs, are owners of owb's going to have to replace their boilers; or is this going to be a dealer and builder nightmare without affecting the current end users?
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Existing furnaces are grandfathered in so as long as you can keep yours running its ok.
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As with any product period, when regulation affects dealers and builders it also effects the end user in higher cost and less choices.
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Sounds like I need to hone my welding skills so if I ever need another stove, I'll just build my own and dare someone to tell me I can't use it to keep my family warm. I know that doesn't help you dealers out there but it's what a lot of folks with the means will do. Once again, the losers will be you small business guys out there trying to beat in an honest living with big brother kicking your tale. I'm hoping my P&M lasts forever but the welder is ready if I need it!!! Good luck to everyone.
Indiana has adopted the new laws, only gasifiers can be sold in the state if I understand correctly, again if I understand home built units are exempt yet. The older non gasifying units are grandfathered in until they need replaced then you'll have to replace it with a gasifier. I'm going to be building a gasifier next to replace ole smoky that I built almost 14 years ago. If they get too picky I'll just make the replacements look identical to what they are replacing and tell em with a big grin that the "original" is still going strong.
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mlappin, I have this crazy idea of building an owb with a removable firebox. So that if either the firebox or water jacket needed repaired, or replaced you would just have to pull out the firebox and go to welding now if I just had the shop and tools to do so. :-\
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Jtepn87 , it's already done, The B-L series from P+M
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Darn. Thought I was onto something.
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If I won the lottery, I'd buy about 20 smoke dragons of the same model and keep changing them out each year so I'd always have one.
I'd also build an outdoor burn pit and order double the needed firewood each year. Every log that goes into the boiler to heat the house gets a matching log thrown on an outdoor fire with the soul purpose of putting more "pollution" into the atmosphere, in honor of the EPA's new rule.
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I was going to add my 02 cents but I think I heard a drone flying overhead, so I am in disguise :bag: O0 8)
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Uh Oh coolidge, I aint talking to you no more. I don't know if it went through but I heard Colorado was paying a bounty on Fed. drones.
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I encourage all of you to voice you opinion to the EPA. I sent them a email yesterday telling them how disgusted I was with the proposed regulations. The email address is a-and-r-docket@epa.gov
I don't know if it will do any good because they could care less what all of us think, but it's worth a shot I guess.
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This is exactly why I stopped selling these stoves and also because Wood Doctor had a falling out with Silver Winds. Updraft stoves are being banned and customers do not want to pay double the price for a downdraft model that had lack luster quality and maintenance. If my stove gives up, I will build my own model.