Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
All-Purpose OWF Discussions => General Outdoor Furnace Discussion => Topic started by: drpinard on January 28, 2014, 05:12:53 AM
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I just cant help but see all the posts about what outdoor boiler to buy. Recently I purchased an E2400 from Central Boiler. This unit takes care of everything. I own a 2800 sq ft home in New Hampshire and have had the unit running since October. Not once did this unit fail me or shutdown. It provides no problem as the computer runs everything. Sure there is creosote but this thing will even burn non seasoned wood if mixed in with some dry stuff. Unit never gave me a lick of trouble. So those who are looking for a boiler this is the unit. Now I see constant threads on other boilers but have to ask why would you buy a different brand for the same money and have less features than this one has. Not to bash, but I came real close to buying the Portage And Main optimizer 250. Actually,had a deposit for delivery on it. After hearing all the problems and so called "Learning Curve" Im glad I didnt. You shouldnt have to spend 14000 on a unit and have problems like I see on these threads. Sorry folks, but CENTRAL BOILER is the only way to go. E2400 will eat the competition. By the way Farmer 4 Hire in Conway NH is the man and I would recommend him to anyone. By the way a normal winter would run me 5K in propane and I have recently spent only $60.00 dollars for my Rinnai on demand unit. Have a great day
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Sure sounds to me as if you are trying to bash PM, current pricing on the 250 is 11'500' where the heck did you come up with 14,000 You obviously have not seen the threads on here about those fancy controls being a problem either, how much money did you put for a deposit on the 250, if the shoe were on the other foot would central have refunded it, since you started the bashing lets talk about the differences in the boiler shall we.
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Mr. drpinard, not to sound disrespectful, but that's a little narrow minded. My recommendations to newbies is the same with stoves as it is with guns. You have to find the one that works for you and your family. It's about which features you're looking for. My favorite comparison is the conventional Central unit and the Conventional Heatmaster unit. I don't think you can find two polar opposite units. I compared the two and landed on HM. My buddy has a CB and loves it. It's all about what works best for you. I tell people who go to a gun shop and the guy behind the counter says "you need a Glock, it's the only way to go" I tell them to leave the store and never return. How any anyone take your advice seriously if you only have "one way to go?"
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Does the Dr stand for doctor, lets have an intelligent conversation about the difference between central and portage and main shall we doc.
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Mr. drpinard, not to sound disrespectful, but that's a little narrow minded. My recommendations to newbies is the same with stoves as it is with guns. You have to find the one that works for you and your family. It's about which features you're looking for. My favorite comparison is the conventional Central unit and the Conventional Heatmaster unit. I don't think you can find two polar opposite units. I compared the two and landed on HM. My buddy has a CB and loves it. It's all about what works best for you. I tell people who go to a gun shop and the guy behind the counter says "you need a Glock, it's the only way to go" I tell them to leave the store and never return. How any anyone take your advice seriously if you only have "one way to go?"
Good post country boy john, thanks for the common sense
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Posts like this make me chuckle. Here is a guy with no experience with any other brand who says none of them compare to his furnace. :bash: :o He also asks why anyone would by a different brand for the same price as he payed for a CB. I guess thats a fair point, heck that would most likely be double or triple the price of many other brands. Why would anyone pay too much for another brand?
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I just cant help but see all the posts about what outdoor boiler to buy. Recently I purchased an E2400 from Central Boiler. This unit takes care of everything. I own a 2800 sq ft home in New Hampshire and have had the unit running since October. Not once did this unit fail me or shutdown. It provides no problem as the computer runs everything. Sure there is creosote but this thing will even burn non seasoned wood if mixed in with some dry stuff. Unit never gave me a lick of trouble. So those who are looking for a boiler this is the unit. Now I see constant threads on other boilers but have to ask why would you buy a different brand for the same money and have less features than this one has. Not to bash, but I came real close to buying the Portage And Main optimizer 250. Actually,had a deposit for delivery on it. After hearing all the problems and so called "Learning Curve" Im glad I didnt. You shouldnt have to spend 14000 on a unit and have problems like I see on these threads. Sorry folks, but CENTRAL BOILER is the only way to go. E2400 will eat the competition. By the way Farmer 4 Hire in Conway NH is the man and I would recommend him to anyone. By the way a normal winter would run me 5K in propane and I have recently spent only $60.00 dollars for my Rinnai on demand unit. Have a great day
I've met some equally single-minded, ignorant people as you in my life, but I can't remember when. If you REALLY understood your OWB, you'd realize that no matter who the manufacturer is, it ain't rocket science. I think most of the OWB's out there are fine units and the problems people have with them stem from either the way they use them or the wood they're burning. And as far as cost goes, the way YOU think, if you spent 14 grand, you got screwed. I installed my boiler, which is heating a tad over 10,000 sf, for less than $13,000 COMPLETE. Your system cost you $5 a sf. Mine was only $1.30.
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No mention of who your local dealer is and what brand is common in your area, obviously he is proud of his dealer, how does that relate to a guy 1000 miles away. Not knocking his choice, it works for him but that doesn't mean anyone else would have the same experience and not all that many people will be able to use his local dealer, add some shipping cost onto that price, maybe an airline ticket for the install.
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i actually took central boilers to the final round w/ portage and main. but when my local central dealer who is 5 miles away, took 4 phone calls and two weeks to get me a quote, it made my decision pretty easy. but wow did the phone ring when he saw the area being cleared for other new furnace. you snooze you loose.
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He did mention his dealer 'Farmer 4 Hire' . He advertises new units on craigslist regularly for 'cost so that he can sell more units'. I would guess that he probably sells them close to dealer cost but then makes his money on the install.
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Honda, I did not mean he didn't mention "his" local dealer and I have no problem with that, my point was supposed to be that the same local dealer doesn't work for everyone in this forum because of distance.
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That's funny. I only have 2k in my entire setup and it seems to keep my house and shop plenty warm and Hardy is still using same technology as they were the 70's. Chevy, Dodge, Ford...... (notice I put Chevy first?) ;D My OWB saves me tons of money in heating costs just like everyone else's boiler.
I personally don't think I would buy a CB but that's my choice. Once I can sweet talk my wife into it I'm going to buy a HM from Scott :thumbup: And if I do, I can guarantee I won't go running around telling everyone who owns something different that their stove is inferior to mine. We're all here because we have something in common, let's not have the "I'm better than you" mentality.
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What yoder said, nothing short of comedy
Experience with one stove for a brief period of time and is ready to plant a stake and declare victory.
To bash p and m isnt a good thing to do either. Id choose p and m over cb every time
But don't mind me, I just work full time in the industry and service all brands and models in my area, including CB.
This is NOT to say cb doesnt build good stoves, but we have all seen a lot of problems on there e models and lack luster attempts to try to fix them with propane igniters etc. Centrals classics are good units but things havr evolved some since they were designed
But for anyone to bash p and m with central obviously aint been around much or theyd know they picked the wrong bone to chew, dont have a leg to stand on, etc etc etc
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Thanks guys
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drpinard,,,,,,this websight has been awfully nice and helpful to a whole lot of folks,,,,,,,,,,,maybe u should leave..................
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My e2400 has been running a month now. Great unit but why is my bypass door handle getting stiffer to open every day. I can't see behind the housing. Anyone have ideas?
Sounds like a problem to me, but you didn't have any problems right? We are here to share info and help each other not try to sell what brand we own as that's for each person to figure out on there own. Someone asks for an opinion then its cool to give yours but this post is not cool, not cool at all. For all you newbies looking for a stove go to the manufactures websites of all the stoves on this site, find things you like/dislike and do more research on the ones you like. Call the companies and ask questions, talk to owners but its about whats important to you..... their is no "one stove fits all". All the stoves listed on this site heat someone's home its up to you which one will heat yours. Keep warm people
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Man you guys are all torqued up about this thread, lol. Brother likes his unit, lets just choke it up to a little pride in his purchase.
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I was thinking the same Mr. Honda. I think he was lovin on his stove, like we all do, he just didn't deliver his joy properly. I don't want to say we've been too hard on him, except Mr. Franky1, but I'd like to think he really didn't mean that all other stoves are garbage. But, my wife says I have too much of a tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt. So, who knows. Maybe if we haven't run him off, he'll clarify his comments.
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This is my comment on drpinard, I'm a newbie to the world of owb's, I did my research prior to buying my portage and Maine BL 34/44. I am glad I did, because this unit fulfills my every need. Initially I was all set to go with central boiler, I had read the forums, unfortunately I had not ran across this one. I don't know much, I'm just a simple guy. Though when I read of the problems associated with the central boiler line, coupled with the fact that the only central boiler dealer was 2 hours away and not to interested in returning phone calls, that was a red flag. The ultimate reason I went with P/M and not C/B was the fact that it appears that the manufactures of Central Boiler could give a damn about their product. Customer service is a term they have yet to conceive. Every thing I read about them was negative. Their response is contact your dealer, ( pass off the problem to some one else) even though they were responsible for what they engineered. Thanks to the dealers that carry the line. Other wise they would recieve no help. To me P/M has a straight toward design,no computer board to go bad, my main concern. If and when I encounter a problem its seems like a straight toward repair. There are no P/M dealers in the southwest. The only issue I encountered was resolved by Brian Martin of P/M. I called on a Saturday morning, Brian resolved the problem (bad pump) 2nd day air ups. Never once did I hear call your dealer, in a rude tone, as I have read over and over about Central Boiler. My only regret about P/M is that my Bl will out live me, and I'll have to come back to life. So I can buy a optimizer!!
Thanks guys
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Sorry folks, but CENTRAL BOILER is the only way to go. E2400 will eat the competition.
I think this line says it all! If the next newbie is from lets say Va. From where we don't have phase 2 regs. and lives in a 1600 sq.ft. ranch and doesn't cut his wood a year or two ahead of time and drives a car that cost less than this boiler is this the stove he needs? Its posted in a general discussion forum and we are discussing it. Could it have been said different? Sure maybe he will edit it to be more hes happy with his purchase and less about if you dont have that stove/company your stoopid. :o
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Well he sure stirred things up in here. >:D Nothing like a little pot stirring to start the day:)
But, come back in 10 years and your story will hold more water. (pun intended CB)
No, seriously, I personally like stories like heat550's, running the same boiler since 1996, heatmor I believe.
chao dr.
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I can only imagine coming home at the end of the day and deciding to see if anyone bothered to reply to his post.
I'm sure he wont be expecting the powder keg that has been lite. staying tuned!!
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I really think this has gotten out of hand. Just a simple post about how happy I am. If you take that I'm bashing P&M I was making a statement about computer vs non computer. In my eyes I like it better. My post was in no means a personal slam slimjim. And no I'm not a DR. If you guys are really that upset then cancel my account with this forum. If not then read it and comment professionally
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Pinard, I don't think that you were trying to be insulting to the rest of us. I think you just came across that way to some people. When people spend as much as they do on their outdoor wood boilers they can get a little defensive if they think that you are telling them that they made the wrong purchase. Same thing with those wierdo Chevy vs. Ford people. I have never really gotten that whole thing. Both manufacturers have their flaws and their strengths. Run whatcha Brung.
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Same thing with those wierdo Chevy vs. Ford people
Hey! Come on Honda! I'm a Chevy guy! lol
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So being happy with your purchase leads you to say it will eat the competition?
how do you know it will eat the competition?
what other brands do you have personal experience with to back such a bold statement?
How many years have you been involved with Wood furnaces?
If you can back up those questions with some actual experience it would def change how this entire thread was recieved.
I work with a lot of companies, not one stove do I carry will eat any of the competition, the truth is there are lots of good units, but no perfect units anywhere to be found.
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Want to make this post funny? :D Go back and read the original post but at the end of every sentence fill in - "In bed"! Its a classic......lol example: E2400 will eat the competition. "In bed".
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I really think this has gotten out of hand. Just a simple post about how happy I am. If you take that I'm bashing P&M I was making a statement about computer vs non computer. In my eyes I like it better. My post was in no means a personal slam slimjim.
No, I don't think it was a PERSONAL slam. I think it was an arrogant and generalized slam against everything and everybody that didn't have the make and model of OWB that you have, in essence proclaiming in an arrogant and condescending way that anyone who doesn't have your preference in OWB's to be of lower intellect than yourself.
... and comment professionally
Like you did?
If you guys are really that upset then cancel my account with this forum.
Works for me.
... the truth is there are lots of good units, but no perfect units anywhere to be found.
That's because I haven't made one yet! ;D
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Seriously drpinard, I would very much enjoy a spirited discussion about the comparisons of the 2 boilers and pricing, you see, Rick Young aka farmer for hire and I are old acquaintances, I have known Rick for years and never heard him say a bad word about any other boiler, not sure where you got your info but I would welcome the opportunity to debate you right here in the public regarding your unit and mine, what do you say, want to go for it.
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I have been running my P & M 250 since late September the only issue was a failed probe on the johnson a410 aquastat and low & behold I changed it myself in ten minutes. it was covered by warranty and my dealer who lives 3 hours away offered to come do it for me but it was so simple even a dumb car salesman like me could do it, I didn't need my brother who is a computer engineer to do it. I agree with most of you guys on here though. In the car business we have a statement it goes like this... there is an ass for every seat.... with that being said I drive a GMC my friend Slim drives a ford. they both satisfy our needs, heck some people even prefer Toyota or Honda's (why? i dont know) the point is i did my research for over 2 years before parting with my hard earned money (alot less than $14500 btw) I narrowed it down to two different boilers the central e2400 and the one I bought, and to be honest price was more on the central, but the real reason was the fact that the owner of the Company and the dealer both took an interest in educating me about the boiler I bought months before I bought it. They showed me what to expect during the lifetime of my boiler such as. Yes I will have to replace the nozel, yes I have to clean it every week or two, yes I have to burn quality wood, yes I may have to adjust the blower motor air flow depending on wood & load. yes I will have to replace it in years to come because it will most likely rust. however I do run it hot, 197 to be exact to hopefully keep the oxygen level in the water as low as possible. Sounds pretty laborious doesn't it?? well it is, but I enjoy it over writing $4000 checks every winter to the oil man. And best of all every one of these things I have to do to maintain my boiler, I can do them all myself with out the need for computer engineering degree. oh and did i mention my dealer answers my calls I don't have to chase him... the moral to my story is find a product you feel comfortable with, find a dealer you can rely on and bite the bullet.. life isnt cheap burn wood
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Oh come on Randy, you can say it , Brian and I paid you for those wonderful comments didn't we!!!
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Seriously drpinard, I would very much enjoy a spirited discussion about the comparisons of the 2 boilers and pricing, you see, Rick Young aka farmer for hire and I are old acquaintances, I have known Rick for years and never heard him say a bad word about any other boiler, not sure where you got your info but I would welcome the opportunity to debate you right here in the public regarding your unit and mine, what do you say, want to go for it.
That aint gonna happen, that would be like me arguing with stephen hawking about physics lol
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My e2400 has been running a month now. Great unit but why is my bypass door handle getting stiffer to open every day. I can't see behind the housing. Anyone have ideas?
Sounds like a problem to me, but you didn't have any problems right? We are here to share info and help each other not try to sell what brand we own as that's for each person to figure out on there own. Someone asks for an opinion then its cool to give yours but this post is not cool, not cool at all. For all you newbies looking for a stove go to the manufactures websites of all the stoves on this site, find things you like/dislike and do more research on the ones you like. Call the companies and ask questions, talk to owners but its about whats important to you..... their is no "one stove fits all". All the stoves listed on this site heat someone's home its up to you which one will heat yours. Keep warm people
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My e2400 has been running a month now. Great unit but why is my bypass door handle getting stiffer to open every day. I can't see behind the housing. Anyone have ideas?
Sounds like a problem to me, but you didn't have any problems right? We are here to share info and help each other not try to sell what brand we own as that's for each person to figure out on there own. Someone asks for an opinion then its cool to give yours but this post is not cool, not cool at all. For all you newbies looking for a stove go to the manufactures websites of all the stoves on this site, find things you like/dislike and do more research on the ones you like. Call the companies and ask questions, talk to owners but its about whats important to you..... their is no "one stove fits all". All the stoves listed on this site heat someone's home its up to you which one will heat yours. Keep warm people
Awesome Post, where the heck is that like button
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Hey guys, I just tried to PM DrPinard and it will not go through, is that because he posted as a guest.
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Actually, Slim, I believe it's because he deleted his account. When he posted, his name was a link with the normal contact optoins below his name. Yesterday sometime his name went black and the contact links went away. I think that's what happens when you delete your account. Too bad. I don't think he took the criticism very well.
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Hey guys, I just tried to PM DrPinard and it will not go through, is that because he posted as a guest.
Its called thin skin, cant believe he wanted everyone to "respond professionally" after him claiming his stove would eat the competition and making such bold statements with absolutely nothing to back any of it up.
Oh well
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I sure wish that he would have stuck around to have a debate about the differences of the two units. I spoke with Brian and he remembers nobody asking for their deposit back, he is going to research that today, I personally think he was a rep or sales guy for CB and there is nothing wrong with that, what I don't understand is why he ran from a debate if he is so proud of the product, Again thanks to all who defended the integrity of this forum.
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I don't know if he was a sales rep for central, but here's one of his original posts where he's setting up his unit as a new install and seems quite happy. Maybe he just didn't realize he sounded a tad condescending in his most recent post.
http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=4077.0 (http://outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com/forum/index.php?topic=4077.0)
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Wow! I just joined the forum today to get advise on this very subject. I am in the market for an owb and have it narrowed down to the P&M gasser or a CB gasser. The size or model number is yet to be determined. I live in central NY so an EPA phase 2 is a must. I had a Classic 5648 at our old house and loved it (grandfathered in). So, I would be heating a 3700 sq. ft. house that was built in 1850's. Windows and insulation have been updated around 20 years ago. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.
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Wow! I just joined the forum today to get advise on this very subject. I am in the market for an owb and have it narrowed down to the P&M gasser or a CB gasser. The size or model number is yet to be determined. I live in central NY so an EPA phase 2 is a must. I had a Classic 5648 at our old house and loved it (grandfathered in). So, I would be heating a 3700 sq. ft. house that was built in 1850's. Windows and insulation have been updated around 20 years ago. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.
This video may help: Outdoor Wood Furnace Tour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWTBLqgKpqk#)
I ordered the non-epa gasser version (Ultimizer) from P&M. I too had it down to either P&M or Central. I ultimately chose P&M to avoid spray foam insulation and I wanted the brick lining (BL 3444). Also a minor concern was the bad reputation about Central when it comes to warranty stuff. I say this was minor because a friend had no problems with a warranty repair on his central boiler when he bought it 10 years ago and it had a leak after one year's use. CB paid a guy to come weld it for him and provided any needed parts. The rampant rumors about CB warranty or customer service stuff I think may have to do with the fact that they are the largest seller of OWBs, so they're going to have more claims made than others. Another friend is on his second CB classic after the first one lasted about 15 years with no issues.
There are a lot of videos on youtube with the central gassers. A few with P&M gassers.
Good luck.
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Wow! I just joined the forum today to get advise on this very subject. I am in the market for an owb and have it narrowed down to the P&M gasser or a CB gasser. The size or model number is yet to be determined. I live in central NY so an EPA phase 2 is a must. I had a Classic 5648 at our old house and loved it (grandfathered in). So, I would be heating a 3700 sq. ft. house that was built in 1850's. Windows and insulation have been updated around 20 years ago. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated.
If you wish, you can PM me, As a rep for PM I will try to answer your questions, I will not bash anybody but as you can see there are some very big differences in the two products, that is what you should be looking at
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Holy cow! I hadn't checked the site out for a while and this is the first thread I read. Evidently the dude didn't realize he was stepping into a Piranha tank of dealers not selling his brand and got the meat on his bones picked clean! Right, his comments were probably a little over exhuberent but it was pretty evident he was pretty pleased with his choice. Got in over his head in a hurry here. Hey there Slim, I've been operating CB's for a long time, an E2400 since 2010...you can read some of my back posts if you need to get up to speed. Maybe we can debate our model options, although I don't have a lot of time to post as I have a day job. Let's start with your comparison of the P&M Optimizer 250 vrs Eclassic 2400. EPA's site shows the PM250 8hr burn time output at 78,252 BTU and .23 particulate output and the CB E2400 at 261,506 BTU with a .12 particulate output. Eclassic 2400 appears to win 3 - 1 in output and lower emissions too. Even the CB E1450 has more output at 120,529 BTU. The E1450 also wins. Price? You stated the Opt250 prices out at $11,500. CB site shows their still larger E1450 at $9,875 with their current rebate. As for all the PM foam insulation bashing, do you really think CB would still be using urethane foam for 30 years if it traps moisture and guarantees failure? Pretty ludicrous claim. I believe failures are caused by not maintaining water treatments if exterior water jacket failures occur. When foam adheres straight to metal or other surface, since it is airtight no moisture can form. Otherwise all the old metal tank water heater sidewalls would have rotted out long ago due to their foam insulation....did not happen. This should be good for starters.
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boiler man it has been a really long day' I'm still on the road, do you mind if we continue in the morning
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boilerman, you have to know you are in over your head......again, right?
Surely you remember the old saying...."Sometimes it's better to remain silent and thought........"
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Oh Scotty, always the philosopher.
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Had a nice visit today from another p&m dealer "slim you know him" just wanted to see how things were going. Kinda nice to have a dealer network like this. Friends of mine who have boilers from other manufacturers have no clue what has happened to their dealers since they bought the boilers. They are constantly struggling for support and assistance. I introduced My co worker who has a cb and he was amazed first of all by the fact that a dealer whom I did not buy from would take the time to stop in and check to see if I needed anything and second of all he was shocked when the dealer offered to help him out with some issues he is having with the cb. And did not bash it but rather offered advise on fixing it. Like you all say on here together we can help each other... Thank you to all who give positive info on here..
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Oh yeah slim ...one more thing. I am leaving for Canada on Friday for a week long snowmobile trip. And I am leaving Melissa with your number . Take good care of her while I'm gone... I mean the boiler hahaha.
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You can count on it Randy, my wife just called me to the back window and right there 50 feet away from the house were 3 beautiful does trying to antagonize my dogs, what a way to wake up!!!
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Boilerman, you must be tired as well, that was not Scott but instead Marty who happens to own a 250. As far as ALL your numbers that CB claims or anybody else for that matter including us, we all know they can be and are manipulated, remember a few months back when the EPA was suing CB for falsely advertising 97% efficiency, really, come on Boilerman, a cold start high efficiency oil burner like Buderus can't even achieve those numbers in cold start triple pass, direct vent,low volume boilers, if I'm not mistaken they are in the 90% area with exhaust temps of below 400 degrees, I remember going to a show in Wisconsin 2 years ago and walking in the front gate, there at the entrance was CB with his display and hand painted on a 4 by 8 sheet of plywood was his statement, CB -97% efficient PM 82% efficient, he was not even running his units in the show, Dave Jacobi and I ran both the 250 and the chip boiler at the show, the 250 was running with a stack temp of 260 degrees and the chip boiler at 320 degrees both with no visible smoke at all, real life is where it's at, why do you think that the EPA is always working on changing up test procedures, it is to stop manufacturers from manipulating the tests. We both have great units, Hell every boiler out there is a great boiler because it replaces oil, CB has the best marketing in the industry which is why they hold about 70% of the market share. Why is it that that they never want to place their boiler next to mine at a show in fact I rarely see them at a show and I have never seen them run one, I personally invite Rick Young (AKA farmer for hire, the dealer mentioned by Dr. here) to do the Fryburg fair with me and several of my competitors such as Empire, Vigas, Benjamin, Heatmor, Woodmaster, we all set up in one row, ENERGY ROW, we all have a good time and sell to our customer base without bashing one another, what Drpinard did WAS BASHING
Lets get down to the boilers shall we, I will describe my 250 and you can describe yours OK.
Optimizer 250 weighs 3030 pounds dry weight and holds 240 gallons of water, it has a round top fire box for extra strength and less corners, 3 1/2 inches of solid refractory cement in the base of the firebox with
4 1/2 inches of firebrick in the reaction chamber, A drop in nozzle and easily adjusted doors and latches on all openings of which there are 4, one primary combustion, one reaction chamber and one at each end of the heat exchanger for EASY cleaning. It has 6 round vertical tubes that start at the reaction chamber and move up to a shelf in the back of the boiler ( Access Door ) then the exhaust goes through 10 horizontal 1 1/2 inch round tubes to the front of the unit, ( Access door ) rises up to the 10 return tubes that are also 1 1/2 inch round back to the rear access door then up the chimney, when I say exhaust temps of 260 degrees this is where we measure it and that is with 190 degree water in the boiler. All those tubes are surrounded by boiler water giving incredible heat exchange area with easy cleaning ability, I can clean my 250 while it sits on my show trailer, on a stepladder at shows, in front of customers, while it is hot in 8 minutes so CB's claims that I personally have seen and heard of how difficult ours are to clean are bull crap. If I can ever persuade CB to a race on cleaning our units at a show it's game on. By the way how do you clean a square tube, I never could understand that one.
Lets talk controls shall we, these are machines that are designed to set outside in the weather, controls are going to fail at some point in the units life, we choose to use standard off the shelf components that are accessible anywhere in the world as a matter of fact that Jonson A-419 aqua-stat is probably the most common control in the hydronics industry, computers I'm finding are a great tool but I'm not sure I want mine in 30 degree below zero weather and I certainly don't want to be forced by the manufacturer to purchase the replacement from them when it fails, I'm sure you will have a rebuttal and we can certainly continue but for now I will sign off as I too have to get to work.
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Have you guys ever studied evolution?
My point is many times the top competitor wins the match and gets the females.
Often times many of the top competitors are fighting with each other and allow
a lower competitor to bypass the fighting and take his prize.
As a previous poster stated we are all winners for not paying the oil or gas company.
If conversations get heated on this board take a step back and relax before you post.
I do believe the original poster is out of line and ribbing P&M but his claim is baseless.
We all have our own beliefs, I'm posting on an outdoor boiler forum when I own an indoor boiler.
Many of you do not agree with my setup but that's fine. In most cases we are all Apples and Oranges
but as long as you are happy with your unit or your customer is happy thats all that matters.
Happy Burning to all.
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Slim Jim,,you surley know evrrything bout them beasts??don't U? :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :post:
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Thats what my job is, I'm not perfect just like our boilers as you can see by the posts but I won't sit still for bashing.
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Wow, lots of sensitivity. A man and his boiler is a very sensitive issue.
To the OP and those looking for the most efficiency.....
Now that he had such a good experience with all the tuff research on what boiler was best. I hope its efficient for him too. $12-$14,000 is a big investment
On the other hand for example, if reliability and efficiency are very important.
HS Tarm Solo Plus 30 102kbtu $13,000 system thermal transfer efficiency minimum 50% better than any
Solo Plus 40. 140kbtu. $13,600. OWB on the market. Uses 25-50% less wood to heat same
Solo Plus 60. 198kbtu. $14,600. Space
Froling 40/50. 136-171kbtu. $15,700 has lambda auto controls for a perfect combustion 100% of the time. The smallest SP30 Can heat 2000 sqft of well insulated living space easily. 75-80% real overall burn and thermal efficiency. Prices are not exact, but not far off. No $2k extra.
Plus all components, buffer or storage is optional for all but the Froling, but we will include it for the heck of it. Top of the line buffer/ storage tank with domestic coil and temp monitoring, 3 circulators, loading valve, expansion tank , air el, PRV& fill, top of the line boiler monitoring and control, safety dump zone and control, SS flue pipe, 3 zone valves plus outdoor reset mixing control. Labor and piping not included
A real 20 year warranty that does mean something, if for some highly unlikely reason it's needed. Thousands of documented cases of long reliable proven performance and real ROI. Zero worries about support and design. One of only three manufacturers that build to ASME boiler standards. NO OWB does. Proven designs and a manufacturer that's been around for more than 40 years.
Now this is only if you are interested in an indoor type boiler with low maintenance and high efficiency
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There you go Sprinter, thats the way we should do it, Promote what you believe in without saying somebody else's is a piece of crap or that yours will eat the competition, why don't we all chime in about our boilers strong points and leave the choice up to the consumer
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i drive a used vehicle that gets good mileage...cause i cant afford a new one or a gas guzzler
OWB ..ii made my own and it is not the most efficent one but it was affordable and i can afford the time to cut extra wood.
if it needs warranty work i dont have to fight with anyone on the phone for service...i just have to get to it!
thses stoves are like cars..everone drives a ford or a gm or what ever for their own reasons..these dam stoves are the same, we all make our choices and move forward from there..when you see a gy on here bashing a stove for some reason...that reason is his own...teh next guy might have the same stove, have had good luck with it and love it. now this forum startedout as a place for those needing help to come and get some so most of the posts you will see here are likley about problems someone is having. dont decide on aboiler just from perusing this site. talk to owners and deealers and read all you can and try and make an informed decision from knowledge gathered from many sources (not jsut this place)
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That is some great advice Willie! There are some great trouble shooting topics that get addressed on this site. But Slim wanted a debate on this thread, so I'm not turning tail. If newbie buyers want to read this I hope they are allowed to and there is some good information to consider from both sides. At the end of the day, I hope they make the purchase that is best for them with the best information they can accumulate...... Everyone can agree or disagree how the EPA output tests are done, but at least it is a baseline in which all OWF’s can be tested on an equal basis with each other, through the exact same test, done the exact same way and those are the results that EPA posts from their accredited test labs. Sorry if you don’t like the results therefore claiming they are false. I’m sure if your units would have had better numbers, you would be touting them rather than discrediting them. But you’re a salesman so what else can you do. I totally agree that no OWF is 90%+ efficient, but I can see if EPA is jamming their testing down the throats of the manufactures and “the EPA test results” show those kind of efficiencies, why not use them…At least EPA came to “their” senses and pulled those numbers off “their” website and requested “all” manufactures pull them from their advertising. I can also agree with you on the point that all OWF’s are saving us user’s money. Propane is now over $5.00 in our area! Wow, that’s pretty cool if CB holds 70% of the market. If that is the case, that had to be achieved by more than marketing. I’d say they have a lot of long term happy owners that have enlisted their friends and neighbors to buy one too. That probably wouldn’t happen if they had a huge number of unsatisfied, disgruntled customers. By the way, it appears to me that P & M has some pretty top notch marketing out there too right now. Time will tell if the product backs it up over the next 30 years as Central Boiler’s seems to have. I don’t know anything about the CB dealer in your area, but mine is top notch and does a lot of shows and events. As a friend and E owner I’ve helped him at some shows and go out on an occasional service call on a Saturday once in awhile or on an install to help him out. Kind of fun doing the shows and having old Classic owners come up and tell us about how much they love their 18 year old CL-40 or CL-17. I would also guess CB must have a lot of “good” dealers out there if they hold 70% of the sales market share a you stated.
Ok, now I’ll describe my E2400: weighs 2,925 lbs dry weight and holds 340 gallons of water, 30 year old proven square firebox design for more heat transfer area, although on a gasser, most transfer takes place down below in the reaction chamber area and through the exchangers. My 2400 is mostly all steel without the added weight of all the extra refractory cement yours has. Personally I have concerns about moisture getting trapped behind all that refractory and the steel causing corrosion, but time will tell if that is a problem or not. Also my firebox size is about 23.5 cubic ft while yours seems to be only about 11 cubic ft which means it won’t hold as much wood for the real cold nights. I agree the gassers run the best by only putting in enough wood to last until your next desired loading time. I load mine once a day, which is enough when it gets -25 or worse. I believe you have 20 or so individual horizontal exchanger tubes that need cleaning every 7-10 days or so. I have 2 huge vertical transfer exchangers (they are not squares by the way, you might want to check that out sometime) that allow the “dust” to drop down into the reaction chamber below. I brush the dust out at the end of the heating season, not every 10 days. It’s really a great design. Pretty much clean themselves. I shovel the reaction chamber below out once every 3 weeks or so, but that can vary depending on wood type and how much wood going through based on outside temps. You want to race cleaning heat exchangers? Let's go….oops, I’m already done. I agree your Johnson controller is simple, but I really like what the Firestar controller does. Monitors the heat and combustion rate down in the reaction chamber and fine tunes just how much secondary air is injected into that gasification chamber automatically throughout the variations of a burn cycle for optimum efficiency. I believe you have knobs that you turn manually “by guess and by golly” to control that air and once set it stays the same throughout each burn cycle with no fine tuned variations. I’m amazed at how the temp in the reaction chamber varies during the burn and can be watched along with the water temp on the display. I can also vary air pulse times between burn cycles so that even at 85+ degrees in the summer it runs great just heating my domestic water heater and it never goes out. (Unless I forget to put wood in it) I’ve also added their new XP monitor to my Firestar so I can monitor the water and reaction chamber temps from inside the house or wherever I am with my smart phone or computer with internet. It charts all this information. Again you can see what a difference dry wood makes over greener wood, varieties of wood, etc. Even tells when the door was last opened for filling, so I know if my son loaded or not if he was supposed to! Yeah, I have to admit I’m kind of a techie. Could a problem occur with the Firestar? Of course, all electrical components can and do fail, but so far I’m into my 4th heating season with it and no problems and it “has” been through some brutal -30 degree nights .I’ve seen a couple of Firestar failures in our area, but most showed up within the first couple of months and CB covered them under their warranty. Oh yeah, my E has some pretty cool LED lights on each side that light up my wood piles and one the side of my door that shines into firebox when the door is open. Great feature when loading in the dark and fire is resting stage. That should be enough rebuttal comparisons for now. Both units are saving people a ton of money this winter, but there are certainly differences between them and it seems to me the E2400 is a larger unit. With the E2400 currently selling at $11,575 vrs your 250 at $11,500 the E2400 seems to give more bang for the buck in my opinion for a EPA qualified gasser, so it should be worth considering for the “newbie” shoppers out there. So Slim, that’s my rebuttal to your comparisons.
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Quite an entertaining array of forum posts. Although I agree that drpinard deserves every comment posted, I still feel as though there is an injustice inherent with respect to each brand of outdoor wood boilers, individually. Any debate regarding the pros and cons of different brands of boilers is inevitably nonobjective to begin with. We're talking about apples and oranges here people. I recently performed countless hours of research to answer the daunting question of which boiler is best. I am not wealthy; I am not stupid; and I needed to take out my first home equity loan to solely pay for my boiler, so I can certainly assure you that I looked at each and every company brochure, internet post, youtube video, performance study, literature etc. and talked to every owb in a 50 mile radius that I knew before buying my boiler. After researching and researching and researching, I can tell you two things:
1) In general, the big decision is buying an outdoor wood boiler. Each brand offers its own advantages. Most of these advantages are simply COMPROMISES from other designs. It's like deciding to buy a Porche Boxster or a 70's plow truck. Are you compromising speed, function, aesthetics, price...etc? Some things are more important to some people than others. What fits you will not necessarily fit your neighbor, your uncle or any random stranger on the internet.
2) The world, the internet and this website are full of subjectively minded people. People (and I'm no exception) will tend to back their brand and note all the pros/cons of each brand instead of focusing on the compromises. I love my boiler, it fits me and I am certainly glad I bought it. Would I recommend it to my brother? ABSOLUTELTY! Would I recommend it to my father-in law? FOR SURE! Would I recommend it to my neighbor? PROBABLY NOT. I think that some of the other brands/models I researched would fit him better.
Let us all focus on the uniqueness of each brand/model so that potential informers can purchase a boiler that fits THEIR needs, not ours, and ultimately strengthen the outdoor wood boiler community. God knows we have a tough road ahead if we want to keep burning wood. Fryedaddy posted some sensible logic. And to add to it... forget the smaller competitor... we have the EPA to watch out for.
Oh... and to contradict myself... I'm still getting way too much enjoyment out of this forum post, so please feel free to continue debating. GO CENTRAL BOILER !!! ;D
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Great posts from both of you CB guys, Boilerman I don't think you completely answered to a couple of my points, first is the testing, we tested at Intertech in Middleton Wi, I believe CB tested in their own lab and that is where the discrepancy happened, you may challenge that but I would like to see proof of that if you don't mind, nobody else in the industry has ever claimed those efficiency ratings, when a person tells me something that is meant as a marketing tool and then it's proven wrong, I personally have a problem believing them again, something just smells bad there, second point that I made was the stack temps on our units, come on you are a boiler guy, do you really think you get even close to the heat exchange and low exhaust temps that we do on that single pass heat exchanger, I personally have measured it at over 500 degrees, perhaps that is the reason for the oversized firebox, one more thing, do you guys run those units at the shows that you go to, Louisville Ky last year was the first and only show that I have done in years that I have done without running our units and that was only because I was asked by Brian to help man up the show with him as it is a very busy show, I don't book a show if I can't run my units as I think the customer should see it run before they buy it, kind of a test drive. One more thing that CB does that irritates me that may or may not bother you, go to the Btec website, Biomass thermal energy council, right there they are the proud sponsor of the program, these are the same people who are ramming through the newest run of EPA regulations that will run the majority of boiler manufacturers out of business because they promote pellets, doesnt CB have a pellet boiler, we have a true biomass boiler on the market right now with the Enviro 500, the only wood chip boiler that has ever been tested at an EPA accredited lab in North America running the same product that comes out of the chipper that is in the woods, that again was Intertech in Madison. Why is it that after showing our 500 two years ago in Saratoga Springs NY at the Btec seminar we have not been allowed to show at any other Btec conference, I suspect somebody is bought and paid for and in my opinion that is not good for the industry but it sure helps CB
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So, back to our debate. Looks like we have a few followers enjoying this.
Slim where do you guys come up with such ridiculous accusations and claims? Seems you got off track on our little debate on furnace features and performance comparisons and have succumbed to some old fashioned political style mudslinging…. Central Boiler can run their own tests, submit them to EPA and get those results posted? Are you kidding me? There’s a Data Plate on my furnace and on all Eclassics stating Tested and Listed by OTL (Omni Test Laboratories Inc) in Portland, Oregon…An accredited testing lab, http://www.omni-test.com (http://www.omni-test.com) their results are turned into EPA. Oh and by the way, stack temperatures are not what determine efficiency and output results. Efficiency numbers are determined by the amount of Btu’s that are driven into the water for maintaining heat exchange from burning the test required load amount of wood, which performs through both optimum combustion and heat transfer during testing.(input vrs output derives efficiency #'s in simplistic terms) I would think the better that process, the lower the particulate emission. So if you think CB has an inferior heat transfer design, why are the posted EPA E2400 emission output numbers lower than yours? I guess burning a unit at a show is your personal preference, but I agree buyers should see a unit in action. In discussion with my dealer buddy on this matter, he says CB has a dealer burn credit program in place so dealers can have Eclassics burning at their home or place of business for showing and demonstrating to customers. Makes sense to me. Next I don’t know much about this Btec accusation so I googled it and this is what I found. http://www.biomassthermal.org/pdf/aboutBTEC.pdf (http://www.biomassthermal.org/pdf/aboutBTEC.pdf)
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a non-profit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
ABOUT THE BIOMASS THERMAL ENERGY COUNCIL
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a nonprofit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council (BTEC) is an association of biomass fuel producers, appliance manufacturers and distributors, supply chain companies and non-profit organizations that view biomass thermal energy as a renewable, responsible, clean and energy-efficient pathway to meeting America’s energy
Does not look too bad to me. I see Central Boiler, Woodmaster, Garn and Tarm listed among around 150 members listed. Now you’ve made another ludicrous statement about CB being involved in this organization, “these are the same people who are ramming through the newest run of EPA regulations that will run the majority of boiler manufacturers out of business because they promote pellets”. Again, are you kidding me? CB is leading the charge with an organization in favor of putting more EPA wood burning regulations in place, banning cord wood burning in favor of selling pellets stoves? That would be business suicide. That market will never be as large as the outdoor wood stove market. While pellet burning may work for some people, I don't see that a large customer base will ever be there. There is no independence if buying wood pellets where prices fluctuate like any other energy commodity. Cord wood is always in ample supply and there is much more savings in tipping a tree on your own property for heating your house than having to buy another energy product. Pellet burning may work for some people.So your statement makes no common sense at all, that would not help CB. I don’t see Portage and Main on the list of BTEC members, looks like joining is pretty easy from what I read. Maybe if you joined the organization they would be more receptive to your chip burner?
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COME ON GUY'S! you are takin this way way to personal some dude comes in as a guest.and starts this crap! I personaly love this site. I may be wrong but I think we are gettin off track here . lets get back to te basics SORRY JUST MY OPINION
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I travel a lot in my neck of the woods (NH ,ME, VT, MA) .The #1 brand I see absolute most is central boiler hands down..
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So, back to our debate. Looks like we have a few followers enjoying this.
Slim where do you guys come up with such ridiculous accusations and claims? Seems you got off track on our little debate on furnace features and performance comparisons and have succumbed to some old fashioned political style mudslinging…. Central Boiler can run their own tests, submit them to EPA and get those results posted? Are you kidding me? There’s a Data Plate on my furnace and on all Eclassics stating Tested and Listed by OTL (Omni Test Laboratories Inc) in Portland, Oregon…An accredited testing lab, http://www.omni-test.com (http://www.omni-test.com) their results are turned into EPA. Oh and by the way, stack temperatures are not what determine efficiency and output results. Efficiency numbers are determined by the amount of Btu’s that are driven into the water for maintaining heat exchange from burning the test required load amount of wood, which performs through both optimum combustion and heat transfer during testing.(input vrs output derives efficiency #'s in simplistic terms) I would think the better that process, the lower the particulate emission. So if you think CB has an inferior heat transfer design, why are the posted EPA E2400 emission output numbers lower than yours? I guess burning a unit at a show is your personal preference, but I agree buyers should see a unit in action. In discussion with my dealer buddy on this matter, he says CB has a dealer burn credit program in place so dealers can have Eclassics burning at their home or place of business for showing and demonstrating to customers. Makes sense to me. Next I don’t know much about this Btec accusation so I googled it and this is what I found. http://www.biomassthermal.org/pdf/aboutBTEC.pdf (http://www.biomassthermal.org/pdf/aboutBTEC.pdf)
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a non-profit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
ABOUT THE BIOMASS THERMAL ENERGY COUNCIL
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a nonprofit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council (BTEC) is an association of biomass fuel producers, appliance manufacturers and distributors, supply chain companies and non-profit organizations that view biomass thermal energy as a renewable, responsible, clean and energy-efficient pathway to meeting America’s energy
Does not look too bad to me. I see Central Boiler, Woodmaster, Garn and Tarm listed among around 150 members listed. Now you’ve made another ludicrous statement about CB being involved in this organization, “these are the same people who are ramming through the newest run of EPA regulations that will run the majority of boiler manufacturers out of business because they promote pellets”. Again, are you kidding me? CB is leading the charge with an organization in favor of putting more EPA wood burning regulations in place, banning cord wood burning in favor of selling pellets stoves? That would be business suicide. That market will never be as large as the outdoor wood stove market. While pellet burning may work for some people, I don't see that a large customer base will ever be there. There is no independence if buying wood pellets where prices fluctuate like any other energy commodity. Cord wood is always in ample supply and there is much more savings in tipping a tree on your own property for heating your house than having to buy another energy product. Pellet burning may work for some people.So your statement makes no common sense at all, that would not help CB. I don’t see Portage and Main on the list of BTEC members, looks like joining is pretty easy from what I read. Maybe if you joined the organization they would be more receptive to your chip burner?
Boilerman, you just lost any and all credibility. What's that saying, you should actually know something about what your talking about, before typing in this case. Better do some research, it will be the biggest O you had in a while. Read a couple biographies , it's not a secret, read some of the proposed legislation too, and who wants to submit it.
No one will ever dare banning cordwood , but the emissions requirements will make it so it's impossible. The only way will be by clean kiln dried wood @>1% MC. I wonder what's cheaper , kiln slabs or pellets.
If you don't know how the process works for getting a product to market, passing lab tests to meet standards and market /product manipulation. You have a lot to read.
I'm sure we can point out a dozen blatantly obvious "sounds good regulations" that have virtually killed a product or market.
I'll start with the fuel additive that doesn't even exist, that the oil industry is required to blend with diesel and gas. So they pay millions in fines the last two years till the one production facility is brought online to supply the refineries.
How about illinois using b-20 without manufacturer or public knowledge and burning down all the navistar injection pumps. ford is sueing and winning for that now. B-5 and b-10 was the limit and they could barely handle that.
Hey but why does joining make my product passable, it passes now without membership. Did you not notice the almost 1 billion dollar new pellet boiler factory in NY that's coming online. I will find that link if someone else doesn't first. Lotta money for such a small market eh???? They only have one model that can burn cord wood as back up.
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It's so hard for me to sit back and not say much regarding this topic/comparison, but I think that it's best that I sit this one out.
I've made so many friends on this site, many that I talk to a few times a week, and about half of them are CB owners.
I find that I've changed as I've gotten older. There was a time, and it wasn't that long ago, that I'd have jumped right in on this topic and typed my thoughts, which would have been backed by facts.
In short, I would have deliberately disagreed with the sole purpose of being disagreeable to prove a point, without much concern for others feelings.
Boilerman and myself have sparred a few times here, as well as on another site. He's not fared too well, and he knows it.
One day his brand bashing will come back to haunt him. He will need help from a martyinmi, a slimjim, a scott7m, a RSI, a yoder, or a willieG and he will find that all bridges will have been burnt.
Or maybe not?
All the above mentioned, my self included, will probably still do right thing and help him out in his time of need.
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Cb is a good stove but many others are right there with them nowadays. Its the whole john Deere vs Kubota debate. Who cares.
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Cb is a good stove but many others are right there with them nowadays. Its the whole john Deere vs Kubota debate. Who cares.
Excatly
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Just Google central boiler leak and see what comes up.
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Hey guys, Slim wanted a debate and ya'll just witnessed one. This is how debates work. He punched and I countered. I'd say an unbiased judge (if there is such a thing now days) would score it 2 - 0 boilerman and that's how debates work. Debate over, life goes on. Brand bashing? Re read my posts, you'll find no accusations, brand bashing, or mudslinging from my posts for that matter. Maybe you all just want this is to be a "dealer site" and every time a newbie stumbles on looking for answers on what brand to buy you can just reel him into your boat. Take a look in the mirror and re-read old thread posts with an open mind. If you'd like I can cut and paste a bunch of dandys for you if you'd like, but rather not have to. There are more shots you dealers have taken at CB than you realize. I'm not saying all posts, there have been some great unbiased comments and instruction to them about things to consider before purchasing an OWF at times as well from some individuals. I'm not attacking anyone. Where did I say anywhere in this debate that Portage and Main is a bad stove? Victor, great example comment....."google central boiler leak and see what comes up"....is that how you sell? CB has tens of thousands of boilers out there, sure there will be some leaks...you telling me your brand with many fewer units out there has never had a leak and wouldn't come up on a search? Come on, many of you guys are dealers and should have made plenty visits to your customers boilers and what do you often find? Ridiculously poorly maintained boilers that lead to premature problems. Let's move on and start a thread on teaching owners of the different brands how to maintain and care for their boilers so they can reduce their problems and stop with all this mud slinging crap. If CB owners have questions on their units I've got years of experience on both Classic and Eclassic models and am be glad to help with some answers. Hat's off to Marty and Scotty (after his initial poke at me) for just leaving this one alone.
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Sooo Boilerman you think that stack temp has nothing at all to do with efficiency in a boiler and you also believe the test that CB was forced to remove from their advertising by EPA showing 97% efficiency was an accurate test, You also don't think that Btec and CB has an agenda.
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As far as dealers on this site Boilerman, I personally have never sold a single boiler from this site, does corporate benefit from my being here, yes they do I am not here to sell boilers, I sell locally or at shows. yes I happen to work with PM and am here to help not only with education on how to run and install our boilers but yours too, All I ask for is to be honest and that is not what we have seen from CB in the past and you are following their lead, You say that Omni Labs did the certification and testing on CB's boilers, thats really strange, why would they choose to do the testing in Washington state when Intertech is just down the road a bit from the factory, I wonder wasn't there some sort of problem between CB and Intertech, i'll leave that for you to ponder but I really would like an explanation of the 97% thing and not just that it came from an accredited lab, I think we can all agree that those were bogus numbers and therefor a bogus test, how can you seriously think that I will in any way believe any part of a bogus test, our boilers tests and more than likely many other manufacturers tests have never been challenged but for some reason CB has an issue with Intertech,Hmmmmm. Credibility is at issue here, once a person or company lies to me once, I don't trust them ever again!!!!!!!!
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It all changes when you meet face to face or even a real phone conversation. This is way soft compared to what I have seen. And when they meet face to face, no hot interneck fight has ever turned into a real fight face to face with real men. You should check out the snow machine racing forums and then see what actually happens in the pits at NHRA , MSDRA events. The biggest loud mouths and inter web brawlers are actually helping each other with parts going into the finals. Even tho their passion runs violently deep, they still refuse to take a win because someone's turbo or clutch was broken.
Thing is, I am positive a lot will be learned from this thread, even if by someone researching facts to back their claim or facts to discredit the other. You always come across little bits of useful info.
No one ever mentioned that this whole thread starter might just be a troll, looking to intentionally stir things up. Might not even be an OWB owner........hmmmm
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Slim, I'm done with this post and moving on. Wish I could find some earlier EPA site postings when both Heatmore and Woodmaster had models shown on that site at 99% efficiencies and I believe they were tested by Intertech. Shortly after that is when EPA pulled those numbers down and requested "all" manufactures to no longer post efficiency numbers "from what I've heard". Do I believe any OWF can burn over 90% efficient? Nope, I don't believe it either. Do I think that a customer buys solely off of an efficiency number anyway? Nope. There's a lot more important day to day user features and benefits that should be considered when making that purchase that are right for that individual buyer. Like Sprinter said, hopefully there was some useful information that readers will find some value in on this thread.
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This kinda reminded me of that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail...Arthur (boilerman) and Black Knight (slimjim).
"Come here, I'll bite your leg off"
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How much money upfront does it cost to become a cb dealer? How does it compare to being a dealer for other brands? Always wondered if different brands require different buy in fees to sell their product?
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OK boilerman, if you agree that no OWB goes over the 90% mark then you should also agree that the entire test should be thrown out. Yes some people do look at those efficiency tests before choosing a product or CB would not have to be forced by EPA to take them down and lastly you still did not give a reason why CB tests at Omni labs in Washington state and not Intertech just down the road, are we avoiding something?
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Just for an example, all those fancy high dollar modulating boilers that show an ASME efficiency rating in the 94-98% range. Can only do so if flue gasses are under 130 degrees and the maximum water supply temp is under 105 degrees. Anything above 86-88% comes from exhaust reclamation and very low supply temps. A perfect combustion alone can only account for 25-30% of the efficiency rating of a boiler for example. The big part is how much energy is transferred to the water and not lost up the chimney.
And just like gas fuel boilers or furnaces all of that efficiency can be wasted if the unit is not sized and or piped and installed properly.
In our area, a huge problem is standby losses and underground pipe issues.
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Wow, looks like over 1,900 views enjoyed and followed our little debate, lets go for 2,500. So Slim, it took me a while to research some answers, since I’m not a regional company “Big Shot” like you. I had to do some research and once again I can discredit your wild assumptions, accusations and conspiracy theories. It seems CB produced a line of indoor gas fireplace models (Central Fireplace) from the late 1990’s to about 2008 and Omni Test Laboratories did all the testing and certifications on those fireplace models. So, it appears that CB already had a 10+ year business working relationship with Omni. So if makes sense that CB would do their Eclassic testing with them too. So I seriously challenge your CB is “avoiding something” conspiracy accusation. If you think Omni is “fudging” on the test results from their accredited lab, maybe you should call them up on behalf of Portage and Main and throw your accusations that they are posting false numbers at them and see how that works out for you. You're the one hung up on the "efficiency" test results, I've never bothered to bring up efficiencies in our comparisons. I compared features and output capabilities. You ignored my point that EPA had those efficiencies posted on "their" site including a Heatmor model at 99% and a Woodmaster model at 99%. If you want me to post that chart along with your Portage & Main at 76% and prove myself yet once again I can do so. "All" manufacturers were asked not to advertise those efficiency numbers and EPA pulled them from their chart, as they realized there were issues in how the "efficiency test" portion was done. That error I agree with as I've already stated and don't buy into 90%+ numbers either. My point is don't go trying to single out 1 company as the bad guy. Now the 8 hour output rating of each model shows each furnaces ability to meet and hold a maximum btu output demand over an 8 hour burn period under constant draw. Now I find that valuable to know and to be able to compare models to each other in output capabilities. You can disagree with the test all you want, but right now it is the only "recognized" test for outdoor wood furnaces at http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html (http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html) I don't see that you've been able to persuade anyone to "pull that results column down as false". It is up to each individual to decide if they wish to value those nationally posted results and numbers and it seems to be up to you to discredit them. I'm guessing that one of the things you and I will agree on is that we will agree to disagree on this matter. Oh and before you accuse me, note: I am not an EPA advocate and certainly not in favor of the upcoming mandates they are ramming through in 2015. It also won't matter if you or I agree on whatever test method the EPA finalize on or emissions results they will require for that mandate once they implement it as law, as all manufactures will have to either meet it or they will be out of business, nor will they be there to warrant or back their traditional OWF's they've sold prior.
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Oh but I think that your guy was the one who started this whole thing, what was his name, oh I remember, Doctor Pinard and he did that by bashing P+M and it's simplicity, YOU are the guy that started with test results, AGAIN I will say, ANY test at this point in technology that boasts 97% efficiency and ANY company knowingly using those numbers to lie to potential customers is as flawed as the entire test!
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My reference to test results were only the 8 hour output rating for sizing and btu output comparisons between models. I'm not aware of any changes as to how the 8 hour btu output test is done or changes in those posted results.
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Please read above post, Note, when CB continues to boast 97% efficiency and you say P+M showed 76% you are as bad as they are, I just checked with the factory to get the numbers for sure as I don't promote on EPA numbers and did not remember what they were, actually our 250 came in at 83% on high burn and 78% on low burn, where did the 2400 come in at on the low burn Boilerman, by the way what are you truly getting for a stack temp(I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours)!
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Boilerman I'd love to continue but it's been a long day and I've got an early wake up call. Continue tomorrow?
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Sure...Again I can care less about the efficiency numbers, but since you insist I did some googling and managed to find the following info: Portage & Main 250 70% high burn and 76% low burn........E2400 85.3% high burn and 92.6 low burn.......Heatmor 200SSRII 87.1% high burn and 99.9% low burn, which is the posting that really brought down the house and rightfully so...By the way, the low burn number is always higher that the low burn number.....I don't know about chimney temps, I've never seen any documentation or claims on CB's part and I don't have the equipment to check my own 2400.
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Oh thats easy, use a candy thermometer, I don't have a clue where you got those numbers, perhaps from the same CB dealer in Wisconsin that had the crude piece of plywood at the front gate hand painted with his statement CB 97% PM 84% AGAIN we did not start this and we do not tout on the #'s CB and you still do, I think anybody in their right mind that has anything at all to do with heating already knows that ANY of those numbers are cooked and CB dealers continue today to use them in order to sell, I have never ever seen Heatmor advertise those numbers or anybody else for that matter, I have no doubt in my mind who to do business with, for others out there that think the important thing is checking the stove temp from an I Phone and believe impossible test results I ask them to please not buy our unit, For those who like simplicity, TRUE efficiency, and no lies, WELCOME aboard, there are several good stoves represented here on the forum, I'm not seeing any CB DEALERS who care enough to be here are you? Oh and by the way if you consider being the guy who services our customers in any way we can to help them burn wood as being a BIG SHOT then I will gladly accept your label, you started the labeling now let me ask you which are you, one of the LIERS that promote CB's propaganda or simply a sheeple?
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Not to sound too fuddy-dudd, but the view count for this thread won't be going up any higher because of me. I'm done. I think you two, Mr. Slimjim and Mr. Boilerman, have strayed from productive discussion. I know you two will shake hands when this is over, but I'm tired of the bickering. Let's get back to helping people find the right boiler for them. :thumbup:
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I don't think I slammed technology, If you like it , you can have it, your choice, Did you ever measure YOUR stack temp and do YOU think that an advertised 97% efficient stove with all the gadgets is really capable of those numbers, do me a favor would you for your own head space, purchase a candy thermometer and insert it into your stack at the breach of the boiler, I think you will be surprised, heck send me the receipt and I'll pay for it out of my own pocket, point is that with all those gadgets don't you think they would want to brag about their LOW stack temps by adding a 9 dollar temp probe, oh but wait, that would be a fact that you the customer could check in the field and not rely solely on propaganda.
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Not to sound too fuddy-dudd, but the view count for this thread won't be going up any higher because of me. I'm done. I think you two, Mr. Slimjim and Mr. Boilerman, have strayed from productive discussion. I know you two will shake hands when this is over, but I'm tired of the bickering. Let's get back to helping people find the right boiler for them. :thumbup:
Can We All Just Get Along? For The Kids & Old People? RODNEY KING SPEAKS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0#)
I agree. Slimjim bends over backwards to help people, even those that aren't P&M customers. I'm more familiar with him because I'm buying a P&M. From what I've also seen, Boilerman also is very helpful with problems people are having. Both class acts. Good debates can be entertaining but we should call it a draw and move on. Granted, I'm a newbie on the site so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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Thank you both for your opinion, Nobody's opinion is taken with a grain of salt, it has gone to far and I do agree that we should get back to helping folks without the bashing of others products, what say Boilerman, how about a hug!
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You guys are crazy :bag:
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Its central boiler stoves that are all over YouTube for people pissed about smoke pollution. Wth?
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If I only could collect all the hot air that's been wasted in this business with worthless anecdotal testing numbers I'd heat my home on it from now on that alone
I to used to spout numbers and get to caught up in it, upon being more involved in how those numbers are achieved and the effort that goes into maxing it out, do I realize that those aren't "real world" numbers and we just need to hush about it altogether. For the most part, I feel we have here and that MOST companies have quit throwing them out there as the holy grail.
Stack temps are where it's at in regard to efficency, Slim is right, it's the best judge of how well its capturing heat and it's so simple anyone can do it and not have to believe a bunch of paperwork
Carry on
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Throwing a combustion analyzer really opens some eyes and tells the whole story. Stack temps are a big key in measuring real combustion efficiency. Even the best stoves take a bit to hit their sweet spot, and those that short cycle sometimes never reach it. To me the most important is a long lasting stove and better designs not rushed to market. The govt pressure has really forced some good companies to put a product out before it was ready and now they are getting a bad rap in some cases. I just can't understand why a CB gasser cost so much, I'd understand maybe if the warranty was bullet proof.
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You may be right Sprinter, CB has made a ton of changes and improvements since the introduction of their E2300 in 2008 when some NE states made Phase 1 mandatory.
I think you are giving CB a false bad rap however with your pricing comment. When you make that pricing statement, you have to compare equal size to equal size furnace, so you can compare retail pricing of each. So what are you using when you compare size? 8 hour btu output ratings? Cubic foot of firebox area? Heat transfer area? I think you will find the CB gassers actually selling for less than the Portage & Main gassers and in line with other brand gassers.
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Shaver stoves are 75% + efficient. It says so on the internet ;)
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Cb is like john Deere to a lot of folks. I'll take the cheaper tractor that will run forever which is kubota.
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Cb is like john Deere to a lot of folks. I'll take the cheaper tractor that will run forever which is kubota.
Yes, but every tractor runs forever if it's in the repair shop all the time. Just kidding! ;D
All kidding aside, JD, Kubota, Kioiti, etc... if serviced when the manual calls for it, they all last forever. My JD (my avatar) is 14 years old this month, it's a 40HP, 4X4, 4 Cylinder Diesel, never been the shop once for any problems. All service I do myself. OWB's are the same, if you don't service/clean them, they will prematurely fail. What do people expect?
My late dad (the smartest man I knew) always said that if you take care of the equipment keeping you warm/keeping you fed, they'll take care of you. Roger
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OH BOY here we go again, I guess HUGS are out of the question!
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OH BOY here we go again, I guess HUGS are out of the question!
I'm hungover slimmy. Just had to see if I could piss anyone off this early lol
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I got into some Allens Coffee Brandy a couple of weeks ago with my buddies wife, let's just say their couch is not as comfortable as my wifes bed and she can drink, what were you drinking Victor?
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I got into some Allens Coffee Brandy a couple of weeks ago with my buddies wife, let's just say their couch is not as comfortable as my wifes bed and she can drink, what were you drinking Victor?
Heineken and a mixture of wood boiler solutions 101 hahaha
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OH BOY here we go again, I guess HUGS are out of the question!
I'm hungover slimmy. Just had to see if I could piss anyone off this early lol
Victor - I took your earlier response as good ribbing. Plus, nothing pisses me off. Life is too short to get pissed off at good natured ribbing. You just better be willing to take in return. Roger
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OOOH! I sat next to a guy one night in a bar that opened a skunky Heiney and have not been able to even get close to it since, I used to really enjoy the Coffee Brandy as it's just like really sweet black coffee with a kick, I think it was the sugar that got me, Doc told me a few months back that I'm borderline diabetic, my wife says I better not do that again or diabetes won't be my biggest concern!
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The Bottom Line on this discussion is most New Englanders pick Central Boiler over all other brands. Don't know why but they seem to have the market share here. At least in NH. When I was shopping them, by far they have the most dealers and stoves out there. All others around here seem to have dealers who only half represent their products. Sorry for this but it's the way it is. As far as other brands this post is not a slam on their products or technologies. So, as far as I'm concerned, burn on and split away. Your gonna need the wood after this season.
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Guarantee You that right now he wishes he would have gotten LAST year never mind next year.
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I agree what some else mentioned we all save a ton of money owning a wood boiler. Especially if you can get your fuel for free. After this installing a OWB was the smartest thing I ever did.