Outdoor Wood Furnace Info
Outdoor Furnaces - Manufacturers WITH EPA-Certified Models => Portage & Main => Topic started by: Sloppy_Snood on February 12, 2014, 01:57:02 PM
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Alright, first let me say that I live in Indiana and appear to forced to use an EPA Phase II wood burning furnace/gasifier.
....BUT if I were not (or lived in a state without restrictions), which P&M unit would best be seved to heat 4,300 sq ft 5,900 sq. ft. with a built in 3-car garage, Ultimizer or Optimizer? (your opinion and why)
Both units look top notch construction to me but honestly, the Optimizer seems to be a little more "involved" keeping it running in good order. In particular, I have read nearly every post in this P&M sub-forum and have identified a short list of items (concerns?):
- Higher wood consumption level for an Ultimizer (compared to optimizer)
- Increased potential for weld failures due to the multiple Scotch heat exchanger tubes through the waterjacket
- Increased sensitivity of the Optimizer using 2-year seasoned wood (moisture content <20%)
- Nozzle erosion for the Optimizer
- More limited access to the water jacket for firebox for welding repairs (if ever needed)
- Longer burn times for the Ultimizer (not sure if this is true or not) when heating the same structure
Am I completely off base here or what? :o Please help set my mind straight. 8)
I would love to hear comments from Ultimizer owners, P&M dealers, Optimizer owners, and general "smart guys of wood heating." :thumbup:
Thank you wood burners! -Slopster
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Where are you located in Indiana? You seem to have enough load that you could be legal with a conventional. As long as the stove is advertised to generate 350,000 BTUs, then you can legally own and operate a conventional unit.
I'm not a big fan of the gasers, fully acknowledging that there are plenty of satisfied gasser owners. I just don't have the space on my property to season wood a year ahead. I just like the simplicity of the conventionals.
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Thank you for the reply John. I am in south Putnam county near the Owen Co. - Putnam Co. line. 8)
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Sloopy, I'll get back to you on this in the AM, The boss is calling me for dinner!!!!
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I believe the middle size Ultimizer is Indiana legal.
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The portage and main BL 34/44 Ultimizer is Indiana legal its rated 370000 BTU
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Check the rules first, then decide if you can deal with the learning curve of the gasser, either way I will be here as well as corporate and this forum to support you
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Thank you gentlemen! 8) Ultimizer BL-3444 is on the radar (thanks CountryBoyJohn!) since I understand that it is Indiana-legal.
Looking forward to your reply to my "concern list" in the original post slimjim. ;) Many thanks for all the replies.
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OK here we go, I'm going to try to compare them with the limited knowledge of the B-L that I have.
#1 yes more wood consumption due to higher stack temps and slightly higher smoke ( smoke is nothing but wasted fuel ) I have seen it run with the 34-44 that I put in to replace a problem gasser, it burns cleaner than that gasser did but the higher stack temps cost the homeowner about 15-20% more wood and the moisture content of the wood is far higher as the homeowner was not prepared for the higher wood consumption.
2 Yes there is more potential for a leak with the added welds of the tubes on the 250, of all of them that we have sold here I have seen one and it was welded the next day, bad weld on a tube, easy fix.
3 yes corporate wants dry wood but I will tell you that I ran a 250 at every show that I did last year and all but 2 were done with green oak and beach as I'm in worse shape for getting wood ahead than most of you guys, the big trick with a gasser and green wood is run it hard, put a good load on it and keep it, not suggesting to burn green wood in any stove but if you must to keep warm then use it when you have a good load on the stove.
4 yes we have had some issues with the mix on the nozzles, we're standing behind them and R+D is working on the issue.
5 There is something in the works as we speak that I can't comment on right now, give me 1 month and we will announce it.
6 Probably so but if so it's only because of more fuel being added at filling.
I hope this answers you concerns, feel free to call or catch me here if you have any further questions.
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Wow! Thank you slimjim. Much information to think about. 8)
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Sleep well on it!
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From a guy who built a conventional and doesn't run a gasifier yet...
(1) I'd rather spend the time cleaning the unit every week than the same amount of time cutting wood. Especially this winter, I thought I had enough to last the winter, but I also didn't figure in those days of -40 temps. Cut a lot of wood over the weekend, and spent a lot of time slogging thru knee deep or higher snow, my knees now feel like they are 40 years older than me.
(2) From googling P&M optimizer I haven't found a lot of complaints about failed welds around the scotch heat exchanger. I have found a lot of complaints about other brands to the BBB.
(3) From what I've read in this forum and other forums if you have high enough heat load greener wood can be burnt. Was even suggested in this forum to burn greener wood during high heat demands to cut down on too much of a coal bed forming.
(4) Doesn't sound though as changing nozzles is difficult though in newer units.
(5) unless other brands bolt their water jackets together I can't see any of them being easy to repair the outside of the firebox unless the water jacket is cut off.
(6) see number 1. I'm actually running out of wood to cut. I loathe cutting healthy trees down, prefer to cut dead, storm damaged or diseased trees instead. Have almost 40 acres of woods to cut in though and still might have to start cutting green healthy trees if I stick with a conventional boiler.
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Thanks mlappin, the gassers aren't for everybody but for those willing to work through the learning curve they are amazing, I will never forget the first time I fired up a gasser, it was a Wood Doctor energy converter, that stove impressed the heck out of me and I've been a huge advocate for the gassers ever since, biggest drawback in my opinion is that the manufacturers reps have done a lousy job with educating the customer on running them, most will turn it around and say operator error and wash there hands of it. this forum is changing that I think.
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PS did you get in touch with Brian?
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Hi guys. New to this site, not new to having an OWB. Recently got rid of one of the ones that resembles an appliance sitting in the corner of your yard. It was very inefficient, but did the job of heating everything well. However, time and life (kids) change things and I just couldn't keep up with amount of wood needing cut (18+ cord a year). The author of the thread is basically asking the same questions I have about choosing between the two models. But I do have a few others. Also, I'm considering another brand that seems to be growing in popularity, though I don't know if it is appropriate to compare the two on the P&M site? The dealer I would use is a great and trustworthy fellow who sells both brands
Is it safe to assume an Ultimizer will consume 15-20% more wood per year?
Very broad question with a lot of variables, but what is the range in wood consumption and efficiency ratings for the Optimizer and Ultimizer?
Can someone please explain the learning curve and tricks of using a gasser?
Thanks for the help.
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MW welcome aboard, As far as comparison of products, you are more than welcome to ask about any brand and I'm sure there will be lots of comments, it's up to you to make your own choice, as far as comparison between P+M products, what else would you like to know, I think 15% would be a fair # and the learning curve of the gassers is that they burn in a totally different way, let me see if I can explain the way it works. In a typical conventional stove air is fed into the burn chamber via a controlled air inlet rather natural draft or blower, the air is injected in different brands to different areas of the fire, I personally think under fire and over fire at the same time works best in the conventionals, some go a step further with firebrick and ceramics to burn what they can of the smoke as it is wasted fuel and the Ultimizer takes it 2 steps further with the 3 pass heat exchanger before the exhaust is released and the fact that it is a sectional boiler, ( it can be split in half by removing the bolts that hold the water tank to the dry base), these are some of the reasons for the great reviews on the Ultimizer.
Next I'll try to explain the Optimzer, First you have to understand that the goal of a gasser is to create smoke in the initial firebox, ( this is fuel to be burned later in the reaction chamber) air is pumped into the primary burn chamber on a call for heat to aid in the burn that creates the fuel, no call for heat and blower shuts off and an actuator closes the air off so no air movement happens in the stove, at this point the heat that is stored in the ceramics cooks the wood to a charcoal, this is why you hear folks say don't overload the stove, only put in what you need to, (learning curve) if to much charcoal is made it will plug up the nozzle to the reaction chamber, the 250 thrives on 2-3 inches of ash and charcoal, others will chime in on their stoves I can only speak for P+M comfortably, now on a call for heat air is pumped intop the primary chamber and forces the mixture of smoke and air down through what we refer to as a nozzle, the extreme temp of the ceramics, ai and fuel come together and ignite into a blue flame that burns almost all of the particulate matter out of the gas creating a flame that can reach well over 2000 degrees, a cooking hot conventional fire might go 12-1400 degrees, when you burn that hot there is no creosote left in the exhaust, therefor now we can put a true tripple pass fire tube heat exchanger on the unit to harness that heat, exhaust temps on the 250 are measured at the base of the chimney at what we call the breach of the boiler and when the tubes are clean should run around 260 degrees and the boiler should have the tubes brushed out before reaching 320 degreesF, OK my typing finger is starting to bleed, if you have any more question I'll be happy to try and answer them.
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Thank you SlimJim. I never noticed this before, but the non-shaker grate model of the Ultimizer does have a second air inlet on top. Which as you said would make that even more efficient, and I assume more so than the shaker model. The one I got rid of had shaker grates and the blower in the rear underneath, however, it took in outside air and not pre-heated cutting down on efficiencies. For those who would like to help shed some light on comparing brands, the other one I'm looking at is a Natures Comfort model ncb175 as well as their gasser. Thanks again.
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PS did you get in touch with Brian?
Not yet, been busy trying to get a delivery truck to reliably start when cold. I might try yet today, suggested to the wife I drop her off in Marion so she can handle her parents 50th wedding anniversary party and I'd head to Crawfordsville, that went over like lead ballon unfortunately.
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....exhaust temps on the 250 are measured at the base of the chimney at what we call the breach of the boiler and when the tubes are clean should run around 260 degrees and the boiler should have the tubes brushed out before reaching 320 degreesF, OK my typing finger is starting to bleed, if you have any more question I'll be happy to try and answer them.
Would it be acceptable to wire a temperature probe into the side of the chimney (and somehow into the boiler area possibly?) in order to monitor ehaust temperatures?
It would seem to me to be very valuable information when trying to keep an Optimizer optimized. Answers from anyone are encouraged.
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....exhaust temps on the 250 are measured at the base of the chimney at what we call the breach of the boiler and when the tubes are clean should run around 260 degrees and the boiler should have the tubes brushed out before reaching 320 degreesF, OK my typing finger is starting to bleed, if you have any more question I'll be happy to try and answer them.
Would it be acceptable to wire a temperature probe into the side of the chimney (and somehow into the boiler area possibly?) in order to monitor ehaust temperatures?
It would seem to me to be very valuable information when trying to keep an Optimizer optimized. Answers from anyone are encouraged.
Might want to check with the manufacturer about warranty before modifying in any way.
Another member who started on his own gasifier was going to add a wide range oxygen sensor and a pid controller to fine tune the secondary air.
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If you wish to add a stack temp gauge do as I do with each boiler that comes through my place here, right above the last pass of heat exchanger just before the stack is the back wall of the heat exchanger, it is the flat portion above the door, drill a 1/4 inch hole into that steel and install a candy thermometer available at most any hardware store, they are 400 degree max temp and very accurate, this will not void any warranty! Mlappin I responded to your PM, keep in touch.
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Thank you slimjim. I have a temperature probe, wiring, and display from work (pharmaceuticals) that will be perfect for the application (even has an RF transmitter to provide continuous, wireless stack temperature data twice every second ;) ). (http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/nod.gif) I am going to have a laptop computer of mine record the data over time in order to see if stack temerpatures trends can be identified and correlated to boiler "events" that may occur during operation. (http://forums.maxima.org/images/smilies/fingersx.gif) Something similar to CB's e-LINK but I'm writing my own code for the program.
I will drill the hole in the location you have described. :thumbup:
(btw.... I'm working with Brian Cooper in Crawfordsville, IN for my 250 or Ultimizer ;) )
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I tried calling him yesterday, not sure if he remembers me or got the voicemail, tell him I said Hi and if there is anything I can answer just call
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Brian must have ESP, just as I punched the post in he called
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Back from Nashville, TN after a long weekend at the National Wild Turkey Federation's annual convention and trade show (outdoor wood furnace companies ought to advertise at this huge show but I never saw a single company :( ).
Lots of thinking and reading over the last 5 evenings.... with great feedback from everyone in this thread and slimjim, martyinmi, and CountryBoyJohn, I must say that I am now leaning toward the P&M Ultimizer BL 3444 (thank for the private message input CBJ and Marty and Karl).
Why? First, heat requirements. I actually reviewed the final dimensions of my home from the drawings to learn that I actually have 5,900 sq. ft. of heated space in my home (includes a heated 1,100 sq. ft. drive-in 3 -door 3-car garage). I just do not think that the Optimizer 250 is going to best serve my BTU demand and financially, I cannot afford an Optimizer 350.
I am curious as to what you guys think I should do now.... I really would like to see a BL 3444 in action. Anyone know of a BL-3444 Ultimizer in service in the midwest? ???? I am in central Indiana halfway between Terre Haute, IN and Indianapolis, IN off of interstate I-70.
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I think Mr. mtoll said there is a P&M dealer in Jasper. He could possibly point you to one here in Indiana. Do a search on "Jasper", I think Mr. mtoll mentioned the guys name in a post.
I think you'll be happy with a conventional. I think their new stove has a lot of potential! Hope you find one to see in action!