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Author Topic: water lines submerged  (Read 9257 times)

farmacresinohio

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water lines submerged
« on: November 28, 2011, 08:39:39 AM »

Good morning---
Installing an Earth 505 OWF in southern Ohio.  The stove is 150 feet  from the house. This past weekend I trenched (4 feet) the path for the insulated water lines.  However, the trench partially filled with 12 inches of water (water table is high in 2/3 of the trench). 

My question---- proceed with burying the lines?  NOTE: the lines are insulated and within a black flex pipe......however, if even a tiny hole exists in the protective flex pipe......this will allow the flexpipe to flood with water and "bathe" the OWF hot water lines!  Please help!

Tony
   
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Scott7m

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 09:08:45 AM »

Well in reality it's going to get submerged time and time again.  Whether it's this wet spell or the next the end results would be the same.  just gotta take care of your pipe and watch out for rocks.

Where are you located?  I'd like to see the earth furnace
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farmacresinohio

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 09:21:09 AM »

Waverly, OH
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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2011, 10:00:19 AM »

mybe dig down another foot and put in a drainage pipe like a sewer leach field then gravel sand your line then cover it up  you could put a sump pump on one end or the other or if you have a good drain in base ment  just thinking  the extra cost would save in the long run gary
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Scott7m

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2011, 11:21:10 AM »

I have installed them in ditches over half full of water several times, never had it cause a problem.  Like I say the water table will get that high time and time again.  Wavily is properly like it is here, you can dig a ditch 3-4 ft deep and it will fill up as fast as you dig it a lot of times. 
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martyinmi

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2011, 04:16:28 PM »

Manufacturers of the better insulated pex usually tell you to bury it 18" deep through the yard and 24" under a driveway. It appears that its better to have it in the frost rather than the water.
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Scott7m

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2011, 04:46:39 PM »

Manufacturers of the better insulated pex usually tell you to bury it 18" deep through the yard and 24" under a driveway. It appears that its better to have it in the frost rather than the water.

Probably the truth cause around here if you go 3ft your usually in deep water
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candyman

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2011, 05:26:02 AM »

here is what hapened to me.

bought from earth 250 ft. line set with 2 water lines electric wire & make up water line . buried  3ft. deep 100 ft. long, sealed hole in basement wall, capped other end { no owb yet still waiting on it } put hay in bottom of trench put in line covered with hay, backfilled. all is good,   not .

nxt. day it rained for 2 days, 2nd. day  went to basement , whoa  water all over floor checked piping wall seal is good no leaks, checked inside of pipe  soaked , holes in pipe allowed water to enter & run into basement.

called earth, they never heard of such a thing they asked me how i installed pipe & yes i was very careful i did not damage pipe.

they said they would send me another 250 ft. of pipe, so now i have to dig it all up & start all over again.

check your pipe carefully before u bury it..  anyone had  this happen.  ??
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Ridgekid

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2011, 06:19:55 AM »

Candyman

Not sure what nature has for underground piping other than what you described, but obviously with your water issues you may want to invest into some better piping suitable for your area. I'm sure your don't want to have to do this again.

Don't worry that another piping system does not have the water supply and electric in same pipe. It's pretty cheap to purchase a separate line and run a piece of electric through it. As far as water supply, could you tie it in somewhere inside your home instead of running it all the way out to the OWB?

You know your issues, it's up to you to find a suitable solution so you don't have these issues again.

Good luck!

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willieG

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2011, 03:37:47 PM »

i like beemans answer, if you are gonna go with the underground pipe that can get water next to the pipe you have to make sure you can keep it dry...good drainage below it and the sump pump wont hurt either (unless of course you have an outlet for your tile drain)

if your pipes are in a plastic tile and are above the frost line there is a good chance it will eventually   crack and get a hole in it anyway, so to be prepared for this with the tile below the pipe is (i think) a very good idea
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tulenutn2o

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2011, 08:14:54 PM »

I hit water in my trench that is 4" deep, and I chose to put drain tile underneath with pea gravel, and all is fine.
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farmacresinohio

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2011, 12:32:29 PM »

So here is my update.  The 150 section (purchased from Earth) to the house in DRY. 
I scoped it with a flexible fiberoptic scope and it truly is dry.

The 60 foot section to the workshop is flooded!  I am going to pull this up and encase it in 6 inchs schedule 40 PVC!

In hind sight......i should have put the entire line in 6 inch PVC. 
Please heed my error ...its so true that you should strive to be at the frost line (18 inches) and OUT OF WATER........... than buried 5-6 feet deep and bathing in water!

Why does everyone think that deeper is better????  I do not know!
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willieG

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2011, 04:01:16 PM »

if you can keep yoru pipe dry (maybe with the tile below it to drain it) than belwo the frost i would think is better than in the frost.

all insulated pipes, no matter how good, lose heat..the rate at which heat is lost is in fact to to the temps around it. that is why your home is easier to heat in october than december. so if your pipes are in earth  below the frost the temp changes very little from lets say 50 degrees  to 40 degrees...if you are in the frost your temps may vary from 50 to 20 (or less?) lower temps cause more heat loss..is it much? i have no idea but i know it will be more than below the frost
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RSI

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2011, 05:03:15 PM »

if you can keep yoru pipe dry (maybe with the tile below it to drain it) than belwo the frost i would think is better than in the frost.

all insulated pipes, no matter how good, lose heat..the rate at which heat is lost is in fact to to the temps around it. that is why your home is easier to heat in october than december. so if your pipes are in earth  below the frost the temp changes very little from lets say 50 degrees  to 40 degrees...if you are in the frost your temps may vary from 50 to 20 (or less?) lower temps cause more heat loss..is it much? i have no idea but i know it will be more than below the frost
I agree.
I always tell customers to only bury it deep if they don't have high ground water.
Is there any way you could send me a pic of the pipe you used? Or description of what it looks like? There are a lot of companies that make it and I am interested in which you have.

Also wondering why you put hay in the trench? That doesn't sound like a good idea. It will rot completely away very fast and leave a channel for water to run the entire length of the pipe until the ground settles again. (if it ever does)
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martyinmi

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Re: water lines submerged
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2011, 05:14:06 PM »

   Just about everything I've read says you are not right, sir Willie. Wet earth will absorb more heat than dry frozen earth. I buried my thermopex 18" deep through my yard and 24" under my drive. There is never any evidence of thermal loss where my line is buried. My friend at work buried his the same day as I did- only he went down 6'-and he hit water-and he buried it that way anyway. During very cold spells, neither of us have any evidence of heat loss based on ground appearance. However, when it thaws after a long, heavy frost, you can track exactly where he buried his pipe-especially where he dug the trench the deepest(that was funny watching him run a mini excavator for the first time). There is no evidence that I even have buried pipe in my yard or driveway. We have both spent a lot of time shooting the temperatures of our supply lines, as well as our return lines. He looses close to a half degree more on each trip than I do. I have 25' more buried than he does. Not a lot of loss, I'm sure, but none the less, losses. It might not amount to even 1/3 cord in a year. I wouldn't have any idea how to do that math.
   A few manufacturers that I spoke with at the ag show in KY said they'd rather see you lay the insulated pex on top of the frozen ground than bury it in water. CB even shows hurried installs where pipe is temporarily ran on top of the ground with virtually no losses.
   I think that burying deep in wet earth won't net that much more loss,if any,than burying in the frost when it's very cold. However, until the frost has penetrated down to the 18" mark, and also after the frost is gone, I'm willing to bet that dry earth will leach much less heat from insulated pex than wet earth. In fact, I'd bet you a steak dinner and a Budwiser on it.  Just think dry insulation vs wet.
 



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