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Author Topic: Earth vs. Shaver?  (Read 23610 times)

chadley

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Earth vs. Shaver?
« on: February 02, 2012, 07:53:55 PM »

Compare the Earth and Shaver OWB's for me.  Are they the same company?  I ruled out a shaver cause I didn't like the idea of having to do a bunch of modifying to it so it would run right.  Are the Earth's made the same way?  I'm going to post this is Shaver thread also for those who have shavers.  Thanks.
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 08:06:55 PM »

Earth are NOT shaver..

Earth comes with a ranco stat and it's a much much better built product..

They both share some efficiency issues due to the very thick firebox of 1/2". Just having the extra 1/4 of firebox thickness reduces efficiency by 25%

But if your looking for a cheap, but seemingly reliable stove, the earth is the obvious winner.   The prices they post however don't indicate shipping and it's usually 5-600

Also keep in mind that when you buy direct you have no dealer support and that is very important

Earth is a brand I plan to carry this year for those who simply can't shell out that much money, I have enough confidence in them to sell them, but I will explain the efficiency differences n such as so my customers can make an informed decision
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chadley

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 06:06:58 AM »

So what you are saying is that I will be using 25% more wood with a 1/2 in firebox...?

Shipping from Mo. won't be  aproblem.  My father in law drives a semi there a lot and could pick it up for us to save the money.  If we did that, are you saying we wouldn't have dealer support from our local dealer? If so, why not?

I was pretty well set on the Hawken HE2100 but then heard of these stoves and an equivalent Earth is 2k less. Can you tell me which ones are gassers and which ones aren't?  In our state anything over 350k btu doesn't have to meet EPA regs.  Other than Hawken, I hadn't found a OWB dealer locally that had a non gasser 350k btu OWB.  I plan to call my local dealer and go meet with him on my way home from work.  I have the Hawken dealer coming tomorrow for an estimate.
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candyman

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 06:15:20 AM »

scott,

earth units are not   " CHEAP & SEEMINGLY RELIABLE "  as you stated, they are very  reliable well built units . earth is a family owned & operated  company.
shipping is not 500-600 dollars it depends on you zip code shipping runs roughly  @ $1.00 per mile. i looked at a lots of outdoor units before i decided to become a dealer for  earth  . i talked to the owner & his staff several times, visited a ohio dealer looked at some of his installs, talked to his customers, liked what i saw & heard. when you call earth a human answers the phone.

some of the many reasons i chose to become a   earth outdoor wood burner  dealer.


munster valley farm
 ohio earth outdoor wood burner dealer
 
candyman

any questions, just ask..

as far as dealer support call & ask earth about it, they are the ones that have the final say  how do you arrive at  25% more wood, do you have hard data, & where did you get it ?

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chadley

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 08:07:41 AM »

Scott says it takes more wood and time to heat a 1/2 in firebox which causes 25% less efficiency.  So, my question to him was "are you saying I will use 25% more wood" to heat a 1/2 in fire box rather than 1/4 in.

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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 08:13:17 AM »

Candyman, yes they are cheap and seemingly reliable!  When a similar sized furnace of another brand costs 2k more then they are cheaper!!!!

Also, I to have talked to many customers and talked to the company on numerous occasions.  That is where I learned that by talking to customers "they seem to be reliable".   Isn't yours still sitting jn the barn??? 

I myself to offer this to my customers as you saw, so I have no reason to mislead anyone. 

As far as the testing of fireboxes, yes I've seen a lot of data on it and its been discussed many times.  Natures comfort did some testing, there 1/4 thick fire box models were over 13% more efficient than the same stove with a 3/8 firebox.  I have also assisted several people in a neighboring county who build a few units a year..  They always struggled with getting there stoves to heat as much as they thought they should.  They were using 1/2" fireboxes and for the size and capacity they weren't getting the results they had planned.  I pleaded my case time and time again with them..  Finally they started using 1/4" firebox material and there burn times extended by around 4-5 hours, and the only change was the firebox material.

With a fire inside the box the btu's can go through the steel or out the stack, the thicker the steel the longer it takes for heat to transfer to the water hence giving it more time to escape.  Some folks think thick steel stays hot longer, but that fails in comparison about heat transfer.  Were using water to transfer btu's!

As far as as asking earth about dealer support?  My customers will get taken care of No Matter what the company I'm representing has to say.  To downplay the role of the importance of dealers isn't good, if it's mid January with temps near zero what good is a pump sitting on the shelf in the middle of missouri going to do you?  A good dealer program is essential, generally things that fail are things a dealer can take care of in a matter of minutes.  Rather than waiting 2-4 days for a company to ship a part out.
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 08:14:27 AM »

Scott says it takes more wood and time to heat a 1/2 in firebox which causes 25% less efficiency.  So, my question to him was "are you saying I will use 25% more wood" to heat a 1/2 in fire box rather than 1/4 in.

Your wood is your fuel, if you lose 25% efficiency, you use 25% more wood.
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 08:32:37 AM »

Candyman, shipping for most folks on here would be way over 5-600 at a dollar per mile.  Myself I'm over 600 miles away and most the folks on here live much fiurther north.  This is one of the issues that I've talked to them about a few times.  So sure if someone lives closer of course there shipping will be less.
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chadley

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 10:33:40 AM »

Scott,

I just talked to my local earth dealer and he says it does take longer to heat the 1/2 firebox but once its heated it radiates more heat and will take longer to cool.  So as long as the fire is burning, it will stay at a high temp once it reaches that point. Just so I understand you.  You disagree with his assessment?
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 04:15:50 PM »

Scott,

I just talked to my local earth dealer and he says it does take longer to heat the 1/2 firebox but once its heated it radiates more heat and will take longer to cool.  So as long as the fire is burning, it will stay at a high temp once it reaches that point. Just so I understand you

Yes.  You disagree with his assessment?

Yes, he does not understand what's going on.  Just because someone is a dealer don't mean much to me, most know little about them.  I have a vast interest in these units and study and work with them daily. 

The btu's have to be absorbed fast!  Or they go out, if I were to put a torch on a piece of metal 2" thick and told you to touch the other side, you'd be able to leave your hand there one heckuva lot longer than if it was 1/4" thick..  Just an example!!!  Now, some might say but the steel would stay hot longer if it's thicker, that never makes up for it and keep in mind there is water laying directly on it pulling whatever heat is produced off..

All heat exchangers are made thin for maximum heat transfer, stoves work no differently.  If you could make it last you'd want your firebox to be thin as possible!  If it would last

1/4" is plenty thick for mild steel
A lot of stainless uses 7-10 gauge

Hardy goes as far as 16guage, very very thin..   
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candyman

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 04:36:28 PM »

so with all that being said anyone wanting to know anything about furnaces, you need not do any research at all, just ask scott
he knows all there is to know about o.w.b.`s  & has all the answers.

thank you,
candyman
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martyinmi

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 05:20:19 PM »

candyman,
   You and Scott are on the same page. His brain and mine work the same way, in that what we say sometimes sounds so logical and so right in our minds, but the way others perceive it, well, that is an entirely different story. I understood Scott fully when he said cheap and seemingly reliable. He meant they are inexpensive and built to last for a long while. But I can also see how you may have been slightly offended. I will speak for Scott and tell you that that was not his intention.

chadley,
   Scott is right about the efficiencies. The dealer you spoke to is mistaken.
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2012, 05:39:33 PM »

Yea I was totally baffled to brag on a dealers product and him take offense to it.. 

Candyman, a little real world experience goes a long way, I deal with this stuff daily, so as to a question a new dealer might have, likely a more experienced dealer had that same thought years ago and found the answers to it..  Don't take things the wrong way, were here to learn and share experiences to make things easier and answer some questions

Drag that stove out of the barn and start learning, you'll be glad you did

As to how you thought I bad mouthed earth in any way possible is beyonnd me! 
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chadley

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 07:28:23 PM »

okay scott,

you seem very knowledgeable on the OWB subject.  You are obviously opposed to 1/2 in fireboxes but are going to sell them anyways (with Earth next year).  Is the cost and the Ranco what is steering you to sell these units? 

I had my mind made up to get a Hawken He 2100 and had my local dealer out today for an estimate.  I have checked him out (without him knowing-not his references) and everyone speaks highly of him and the Hawken stoves.

After reading a lot on here; I have come to the conclusion that next to the stove, the dealer is the most important thing to consider in buying an OWB.  I like him very well.

I recently found there is an Earth dealer close by, so I started researching them.  The Earth dealer also has a good reputation but his logic on the 1/2 firebox is in complete contrast to yours which makes me wonder about his knowledge and credibility; hence question buying an Earth.

What are your thoughts (or anyone else's) on my two choices.

Thanks,
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Scott7m

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Re: Earth vs. Shaver?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 07:47:02 PM »

Chadley,

Only reason I'll be selling them is they seem to be good quality and use good parts.  I will first explain tho to my customers they are buying a less efficient stove.  It's like when you go to a store..  You can buy the cheap jeans or the expensive, stores carry both to appeal to more people.  The price is what will sell the earth but I don't feel it will hurt my high end sales a bit because they seem to be 2 different markets of people.

Your earth dealer is either lying to you and knowing it, or, he's just not real knowledgeable on how they work.  Many dealers know little and simply spout what the company tells them to.

Soooo I donno, I guess most importantly is your budget, and doing what feels right... 
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