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[mikemike]

COME ON GUY'S! you are takin this way way to personal some dude comes in as a guest.and starts this crap! I personaly love this site. I may be wrong            but I think we are gettin off track here . lets get back to te basics SORRY JUST MY OPINION

[MattyNH]

I travel a lot in my neck of the woods (NH ,ME, VT, MA) .The #1 brand I see absolute most is central boiler hands down..

[Sprinter]

So, back to our debate. Looks like we have a few followers enjoying this.
Slim where do you guys come up with such ridiculous accusations and claims? Seems you got off track on our little debate on furnace features and performance comparisons and have succumbed to some old fashioned political style mudslinging…. Central Boiler can run their own tests, submit them to EPA and get those results posted? Are you kidding me? There’s a Data Plate on my furnace and on all Eclassics stating Tested and Listed by OTL (Omni Test Laboratories Inc) in Portland, Oregon…An accredited testing lab, http://www.omni-test.com their results are turned into EPA. Oh and by the way, stack temperatures are not what determine efficiency and output results. Efficiency numbers are determined by the amount of Btu’s that are driven into the water for maintaining heat exchange from burning the test required load amount of wood, which performs through both optimum combustion and heat transfer during testing.(input vrs output derives efficiency #'s in simplistic terms) I would think the better that process, the lower the particulate emission. So if you think CB has an inferior heat transfer design, why are the posted EPA E2400 emission output numbers lower than yours? I guess burning a unit at a show is your personal preference, but I agree buyers should see a unit in action. In discussion with my dealer buddy on this matter, he says CB has a dealer burn credit program in place so dealers can have Eclassics burning at their home or place of business for showing and demonstrating to customers. Makes sense to me. Next I don’t know much about this Btec accusation so I googled it and this is what I found. http://www.biomassthermal.org/pdf/aboutBTEC.pdf

The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a non-profit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
ABOUT THE BIOMASS THERMAL ENERGY COUNCIL
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council is a nonprofit association dedicated to advancing the use of biomass for heat and other thermal energy applications.
The Biomass Thermal Energy Council (BTEC) is an association of biomass fuel producers, appliance manufacturers and distributors, supply chain companies and non-profit organizations that view biomass thermal energy as a renewable, responsible, clean and energy-efficient pathway to meeting America’s energy 

Does not look too bad to me. I see Central Boiler, Woodmaster, Garn and Tarm listed among around 150 members listed. Now you’ve made another ludicrous statement about CB being involved in this organization, “these are the same people who are ramming through the newest run of EPA regulations that will run the majority of boiler manufacturers out of business because they promote pellets”.  Again, are you kidding me? CB is leading the charge with an organization in favor of putting more EPA wood burning regulations in place, banning cord wood burning in favor of selling pellets stoves? That would be business suicide. That market will never be as large as the outdoor wood stove market. While pellet burning may work for some people, I don't see that a large customer base will ever be there. There is no independence if buying wood pellets where prices fluctuate like any other energy commodity. Cord wood is always in ample supply and there is much more savings in tipping a tree on your own property for heating your house than having to buy another energy product. Pellet burning may work for some people.So your statement makes no common sense at all, that would not help CB. I don’t see Portage and Main on the list of BTEC members, looks like joining is pretty easy from what I read. Maybe if you joined the organization they would be more receptive to your chip burner?

Boilerman, you just lost any and all credibility.  What's that saying, you should actually know something about what your talking about, before typing in this case.  Better do some research, it will be the biggest O  you had in a while. Read a couple biographies , it's not a secret, read some of the proposed legislation too, and who wants to submit it.

No one will ever dare banning cordwood , but the emissions requirements will make it so it's impossible. The only way will be by clean kiln dried wood @>1% MC. I wonder what's cheaper , kiln slabs or pellets.
If you don't know how the process works for getting a product to market, passing lab tests to meet standards and market /product manipulation. You have a lot to read.

I'm sure we can point out a dozen blatantly obvious "sounds good regulations" that have virtually killed a product or market.
I'll  start with the fuel additive that doesn't even exist, that the oil industry is required to blend with diesel and gas. So they pay millions in fines the last two years till the one production facility is brought online to supply the refineries. 
How about illinois using b-20 without manufacturer or public knowledge and burning down all the navistar injection pumps. ford is sueing and winning for that now. B-5 and b-10 was the limit and they could barely handle that.

Hey but why does joining make my product passable, it passes now without membership. Did you not notice the almost 1 billion dollar new pellet boiler factory in NY that's coming online. I will find that link if someone else doesn't first.   Lotta money for such a small market eh? They only have one model that can burn cord wood as back up. 

[martyinmi]

It's so hard for me to sit back and not say much regarding this topic/comparison, but I think that it's best that I sit this one out.
I've made so many friends on this site, many that I talk to a few times a week, and about half of them are CB owners.
I find that I've changed as I've gotten older. There was a time, and it wasn't that long ago, that I'd have jumped right in on this topic and typed my thoughts, which would have been backed by facts.
In short, I would have deliberately disagreed with the sole purpose of being disagreeable to prove a point, without much concern for others feelings.
Boilerman and myself have sparred a few times here, as well as on another site. He's not fared too well, and he knows it.
One day his brand bashing will come back to haunt him. He will need help from a martyinmi, a slimjim, a scott7m, a RSI, a yoder, or a willieG and he will find that all bridges will have been burnt.
Or maybe not?
All the above mentioned, my self included, will probably still do right thing and help him out in his time of need. 

[victor6deep]

Cb is a good stove but many others are right there with them nowadays. Its the whole john Deere vs Kubota debate. Who cares.

[MattyNH]

Cb is a good stove but many others are right there with them nowadays. Its the whole john Deere vs Kubota debate. Who cares.

Excatly

[victor6deep]

Just Google central boiler leak and see what comes up.

[boilerman]

Hey guys, Slim wanted a debate and ya'll just witnessed one. This is how debates work. He punched and I countered. I'd say an unbiased judge (if there is such a thing now days) would score it 2 - 0 boilerman and that's how debates work. Debate over, life goes on. Brand bashing? Re read my posts, you'll find no accusations, brand bashing, or mudslinging from my posts for that matter. Maybe you all just want this is to be a "dealer site" and every time a newbie stumbles on looking for answers on what brand to buy you can just reel him into your boat. Take a look in the mirror and re-read old thread posts with an open mind. If you'd like I can cut and paste a bunch of dandys for you if you'd like, but rather not have to. There are more shots you dealers have taken at CB than you realize. I'm not saying all posts, there have been some great unbiased comments and instruction to them about things to consider before purchasing an OWF at times as well from some individuals. I'm not attacking anyone. Where did I say anywhere in this debate that Portage and Main is a bad stove? Victor, great example comment....."google central boiler leak and see what comes up"....is that how you sell? CB has tens of thousands of boilers out there, sure there will be some leaks...you telling me your brand with many fewer units out there has never had a leak and wouldn't come up on a search? Come on, many of you guys are dealers and should have made plenty visits to your customers boilers and what do you often find? Ridiculously poorly maintained boilers that lead to premature problems. Let's move on and start a thread on teaching owners of the different brands how to maintain and care for their boilers so they can reduce their problems and stop with all this mud slinging crap. If CB owners have questions on their units I've got years of experience on both Classic and Eclassic models and am be glad to help with some answers. Hat's off to Marty and Scotty (after his initial poke at me) for just leaving this one alone.

[slimjim]

Sooo Boilerman you think that stack temp has nothing at all to do with efficiency in a boiler and you also believe the test that CB was forced to remove from their advertising by EPA showing 97% efficiency was an accurate test, You also don't think that Btec and CB has an agenda.

[slimjim]

As far as dealers on this site Boilerman, I personally have never sold a single boiler from this site,  does corporate benefit from my being here, yes they do I am not here to sell boilers, I sell locally or at shows. yes I happen to work with PM and am here to help not only with education on how to run and install our boilers but yours too, All I ask for is to be honest and that is not what we have seen from CB in the past and you are following their lead, You say that Omni Labs did the certification and testing on CB's boilers, thats really strange, why would they choose to do the testing in Washington state when Intertech is just down the road a bit from the factory, I wonder wasn't there some sort of problem between CB and Intertech, i'll leave that for you to ponder but I really would like an explanation of the 97% thing and not just that it came from an accredited lab, I think we can all agree that those were bogus numbers and therefor a bogus test, how can you seriously think that I will in any way believe any part of a bogus test,  our boilers tests and more than likely many other manufacturers tests have never been challenged but for some reason CB has an issue with Intertech,Hmmmmm. Credibility is at issue here, once a person or company lies to me once, I don't trust them ever again!!!!!!!!

[Sprinter]

It all changes when you meet face to face or even a real phone conversation. This is way soft compared to what I have seen. And when they meet face to face, no hot interneck fight has ever turned into a real fight face to face with real men. You should check out the snow machine racing forums and then see what actually happens in the pits at NHRA , MSDRA events. The biggest loud mouths and inter web brawlers are actually helping each other with parts going into the finals. Even tho their passion runs violently deep, they still refuse to take a win because someone's turbo or clutch was broken.

Thing is, I am positive a lot will be learned from this thread, even if by someone researching facts to back their claim or facts to discredit the other. You always come across little bits of useful info.

No one ever mentioned that this whole thread starter might just be a troll, looking to intentionally stir things up. Might not even be an OWB owner........hmmmm

[boilerman]

Slim, I'm done with this post and moving on. Wish I could find some earlier EPA site postings when both Heatmore and Woodmaster had models shown on that site at 99% efficiencies and I believe they were tested by Intertech. Shortly after that is when EPA pulled those numbers down and requested "all" manufactures to no longer post efficiency numbers "from what I've heard". Do I believe any OWF can burn over 90% efficient? Nope, I don't believe it either. Do I think that a customer buys solely off of an efficiency number anyway? Nope. There's a lot more important day to day user features and benefits that should be considered when making that purchase that are right for that individual buyer. Like Sprinter said, hopefully there was some useful information that readers will find some value in on this thread.

[wishiwasfishingguy]

This kinda reminded me of that scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail...Arthur (boilerman) and Black Knight (slimjim).

"Come here, I'll bite your leg off"

[victor6deep]

How much money upfront does it cost to become a cb dealer? How does it compare to being a dealer for other brands? Always wondered if different brands require different buy in fees to sell their product?

[slimjim]

OK boilerman, if you agree that no OWB goes over the 90% mark then you should also agree that the entire test should be thrown out. Yes some people do look at those efficiency tests before choosing a product or CB would not have to be forced by EPA to take them down and lastly you still did not give a reason why CB tests at Omni labs in Washington state and not Intertech just down the road, are we avoiding something?