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[yoderheating]

 Sprinter, how many outdoor furnaces have you physically installed? I'm not asking how many plans you dreamed up. I'm not asking how many people you told what they should do. I'm not asking how many pressurized boilers you have installed. I'm asking how many times you took a pipe wrench and put a unpressurized outdoor furnace system in by yourself. There just seems to be some sort of disconnect with the reality of how these systems work.

[slimjim]

Naturally Aspirated, I do see what looks like a pressure relief valve on the gasser, that tells me it's pressurized and also if it were set up non pressurized it would not work, how would you keep the air that WILL develop in the upper heat loops out, and yes the circ may have been inadvertently left out but that is not the only problem with that drawing, it is also not what I would consider a primary secondary loop, I'm going to try and stop by Scotts on my way to Florida this weekend and perhaps I can enlist his help in posting a drawing of the way that I do it, some may think it is nuts but it has always worked for me, I'm certainly not saying that it's my way or the highway as I know there are many here smarter than I but I have spent many a night on a jobsite in my motor home thinking and discussing piping with some pretty darn intelligent folks over a few Buds, Sprinter, just because you made a mistake does not mean we don't love you, HUGS and keep posting, I have found several of your opinions to be helpful and we all make mistakes, GOD knows I have.  Yoder, yes they do, you would not want it any other way, Scott, when I stop by remind me to show you how I shut the boiler off when it runs out of wood and why.

[yoderheating]

 Thanks Slim, I thought you would have to.

[slimjim]

Where are you at Yoder, I plan on coming down 81

[NaturallyAspirated]

Naturally Aspirated, I do see what looks like a pressure relief valve on the gasser, that tells me it's pressurized and also if it were set up non pressurized it would not work, how would you keep the air that WILL develop in the upper heat loops out, and yes the circ may have been inadvertently left out but that is not the only problem with that drawing, it is also not what I would consider a primary secondary loop, I'm going to try and stop by Scotts on my way to Florida this weekend and perhaps I can enlist his help in posting a drawing of the way that I do it, some may think it is nuts but it has always worked for me, I'm certainly not saying that it's my way or the highway as I know there are many here smarter than I but I have spent many a night on a jobsite in my motor home thinking and discussing piping with some pretty darn intelligent folks over a few Buds, Sprinter, just because you made a mistake does not mean we don't love you, HUGS and keep posting, I have found several of your opinions to be helpful and we all make mistakes, GOD knows I have.  Yoder, yes they do, you would not want it any other way, Scott, when I stop by remind me to show you how I shut the boiler off when it runs out of wood and why.

His SOP is to put a pressure relief valve on all furnaces, pressurized or not - at least in the drawings in his book.

I am not saying that it is a properly done non-pressurized drawing at all.  I know he does give examples of how not to do things, perhaps this is once of those instances.

Neal

[slimjim]

  Perhaps you are right, I sure hope Sprinter isn't pissed at us all, Scott, Yoder, maybe,but not all of us, come on Sprinter, don't get offended so easily

[NaturallyAspirated]

My wife constantly tells me my input is important, even if I am a moron....   

Neal

[yoderheating]

My wife constantly tells me my input is important, even if I am a moron....   

Neal

[yoderheating]

 We are near exit 114

[slimjim]

COLD BEER!

[idahohay]

Sceptre, I thought your choice of a 26-99 was a good one considering the psi drop at your fphe. Was hoping to hear more discussion on that one.

On your domestic hot water circuit, were you planning on circulating through another fphe and still another pump on the DHW tank? Or just supply heat from the primary loop side and simply direct your makeup water through the fphe. I was wondering because of the need to run it 24/7, on a timer, or ??.

[Sprinter]

Pissed, nope ....why....it's only a forum and disagreements or misunderstandings. There literally is no better way to learn short of on the job where it's more expensive.

Everything is there in the picture. Doesn't anyone know what a thermoblock is? Google it.  Like I said just think of the buffer as a flat plate. Pressurized or not that is irrelevant, you should be able to understand this, just because its different than a brochure picture, it shouldn't stump you. Plans like this assume you have some hydronic knowledge and why every pipe detail or length isn't noted on there. Further into the program it details what size everything is, and when you make changes it calculates it all out. Pointing out errors or suggestions. Pretty much every circ and popular brand device specs are in the program.
Let's just say that the buffer is a flat plat and the primary loop needs 15 GPM/150kbtu a 007/15-58 will work because the header and flat plate are sized for it. Don't get stuck in the other way of thinking/doing it. Primary loops should never have high head. And 10' would be considered high.
Slim the load zone IS the primary loop in this case, the boiler is secondary. There are many versions of P/S piping. The whole reason for P/S is to match two parts of a system with different flows and still be invisible to each other.  P/S piping books and online info everywhere to see all versions and what defines a primary or secondary layout.

http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.cfm
http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/86928-primary-secondary-piping-back-by-popular-demand?v=preview
A couple good sources you might even find at the library, Dan Holohan "Pumping Away"  or siggy's "Modern Hydronics"
This broadens your design or expansion add-on options. Excellent for troubleshooting systems you didn't install.
Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is. Its so easy it's confusing.

[sceptre74]

Sceptre, I thought your choice of a 26-99 was a good one considering the psi drop at your fphe. Was hoping to hear more discussion on that one.

On your domestic hot water circuit, were you planning on circulating through another fphe and still another pump on the DHW tank? Or just supply heat from the primary loop side and simply direct your makeup water through the fphe. I was wondering because of the need to run it 24/7, on a timer, or ??.

No second circulator. Secondary loop and then makeup water on the other side. I don't think there is a need for another circ.
As far as the 26-99 goes, this is what slimjim suggested I use. He is Much more knowledgeable than I with this stuff so he must have his reasons for it. Hopefully he'll be on later to explain why
I talked to him numerous times by phone and explained to him what my plans were. This is what he came up with and I fully trust his judgement. 

[NaturallyAspirated]

Pissed, nope ....why....it's only a forum and disagreements or misunderstandings. There literally is no better way to learn short of on the job where it's more expensive.

Everything is there in the picture. Doesn't anyone know what a thermoblock is? Google it.  Like I said just think of the buffer as a flat plate. Pressurized or not that is irrelevant, you should be able to understand this, just because its different than a brochure picture, it shouldn't stump you. Plans like this assume you have some hydronic knowledge and why every pipe detail or length isn't noted on there. Further into the program it details what size everything is, and when you make changes it calculates it all out. Pointing out errors or suggestions. Pretty much every circ and popular brand device specs are in the program.
Let's just say that the buffer is a flat plat and the primary loop needs 15 GPM/150kbtu a 007/15-58 will work because the header and flat plate are sized for it. Don't get stuck in the other way of thinking/doing it. Primary loops should never have high head. And 10' would be considered high.
Slim the load zone IS the primary loop in this case, the boiler is secondary. There are many versions of P/S piping. The whole reason for P/S is to match two parts of a system with different flows and still be invisible to each other.  P/S piping books and online info everywhere to see all versions and what defines a primary or secondary layout.

http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-secondary_piping_tutorial.cfm
http://www.pmengineer.com/articles/86928-primary-secondary-piping-back-by-popular-demand?v=preview
A couple good sources you might even find at the library, Dan Holohan "Pumping Away"  or siggy's "Modern Hydronics"
This broadens your design or expansion add-on options. Excellent for troubleshooting systems you didn't install.
Yoder, I repaired more than I install and I've installed more than you've quoted.
Rather than saying its wrong, how about asking why, knowing and understanding why its wrong. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is. Its so easy it's confusing.

Also, it may not be the best idea to suggest people treat FPHE and buffer tanks as the same thing without adding the caveat(s) of how different they behave i.e. head loss, which may require different circulators in some instances, even if it is not true in your current example.

Neal

[yoderheating]

 Okay Sprinter, I will take your word for it. What brand do you install?