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[lovin4kids]

Hello all!  I'm new to this forum, but have read most of the posts on the P&M topic.  I currently have a home built OWB that is very similar to the Ultimizer.  My heat exchanger has 4 passes above the firebox rather than 2, and I no longer use firebrick since the ash/creosote got under them and rusted through the firebox.  After making the necessary repairs, I can't seem to get good circulation in the water jacket which leaves me with a cold house on days when it gets below 0.

I like the idea of a gasser, and called P&M about dealers in my area.  I was told there aren't any, but they could ship direct.  They also told me that since Michigan doesn't restrict OWBs, I should buy the Ultimizer because it is more efficient than the Optimizer. 

I was left scratching my head.  Aren't the gassers supposed to burn less wood?  And since the heat exchangers are vastly different between the two models, I would think the Optimizer would be more efficient at converting wood heat into water heat.  Am I missing something?  Is there anyone on here that could verify this claim? 

I understand that the gassers require a learning curve, but I'm okay with that.  I just like the idea of burning less wood. 

I read a post by Slimjim from last fall where he stated that the new 250s were not quite ready.  Should I be looking elsewhere?

I currently heat my 20 year old ranch home (1750 sqft main floor, and 1750 sqft basement, both well insulated), my DHW (wife, 4 teenagers and I) and a pole barn (1500 sqft, poorly insulated) on about 14 full cords.  I live in SW Michigan, where the temps dip into the negative digits at night, but rise to the single digits to the teens on the coldest days.

Sorry this is long, but..

1.  Which model burns less wood?
2.  What isn't quite right with the NEW 250?
3.  If I choose the 250, would it be large enough for my needs?

Thanks,
Aaron

[slimjim]

OK I'm going to step out on a limb here a bit as I probably should no longer be commenting on the P+M line BUT, I think there was a misunderstanding on the phone somewhere, The optimizer 250 is a full fledged gasser with stack temps of 250 to 300 degrees and the Ultimizer is a hybrid conventional unit with stack temps of around 500 degrees, the Optimizer will burn less wood.
  I am not at Liberty to talk about the new 250 so I will not comment on it and yes the Optimizer 250 should be a good fit for your needs.

[Jwood]

Way wrong the ultimizer is not more efficient. Sounds like your dealer is pushing the ultimizer to get rid of what's in stock which is pretty shady for that dealer.

[agriffinjd]

I live in the UP of Michigan.   I bought an Ultimizer from Dave Jacoby, a dealer in Trego, Wisconsin.  Call him and discuss your needs.  His website is http://strawbalefarms.com/

The Ultimizer will burn more wood than the Optimizer.  It's a conventional boiler not a gasser like the Optimizer.  I heat 4000 square feet of very well insulated house, DHW, and 1200 square feet of well insulated detached garage with a BL 3444.  This is my first year and it's going well.  I think you'd need the 3444 if you went with the Ultimizer.  I can't comment on the Optimizer and whether it would work for you though.

[lovin4kids]

Thanks for the replies, guys.  It wasn't a dealer, but the main office that I spoke with.  I questioned the logic, but was told a dealer had the Optimizer then switched to the Ultimizer and burned even less wood.  I was just curious if anyone else had similar experiences, since it seems just the opposite should be true.

I'm really leaning toward the 250, but the brochure states that it is good up to 5000 sqft of well insulated buildings.  Although the house is insulated well, the barn isn't.  I plan to fix some of that, but it's still a barn.  With 2 sliding doors and 2 overhead doors, there are lots of places for air to get in.  I'd hate to be on the small side and wish I'd went bigger.  On the other hand, I'd rather not pay for the bigger unit if I don't need it.

Slimjim, thanks for letting me know you're not at liberty to talk about the new 250.  I respect that.  You can just PM me all the details.  Haha!  Seriously, it's got me thinking that I should wait til it shows up on the P&M website, though.  Since I don't have a local dealer, I guess that would be the only way I could see it.

[Big Wood]

I have a customer that owned an optimizer 250 ran 1 year sold it and bought a BL 3444 shaker great its been our coldest winter than last talked to him the other day and wood consumption is about the same as last year less maintaince less aggravation better than a CB

[coolidge]

Lovin,

   I am heating the same sq ft as you with a 250, although I am well insulated.
On the coldest night -15 the house and the shop are 70 and I can get 12 plus hours burn.
Its looking like about 14 cord for the year.

[JTS717]

Everything I have ever heard says the Optimizer is much more efficient.  If you are going to get the Optimizer it is better for it to be undersized and worked hard.  Mine is almost too much for my heat load.  When it gets in the upper 30's it doesn't call for much heat and I had a hard time keeping it going.  That was part of the learning curve but now I have had the fans stay off for 5 hours and the fire comes right back when the fans kick on.

I recently called the main office to get some information on the economizer IDM 100 (decided it wouldn't work for me since I don't have a garage to put it in.)  I didn't tell them I am running the Optimizer right now and the gentleman I talked to tried to sell me the Ultimizer BL28-40.   He kept saying you will need perfect, dry, uniform wood to run the gasification boiler.  It requires more maintenance, you can put the BL28-40 in a shop too if that is the route you are looking to go.  To be honest I was a little turned off. I called and asked specifically about the IDM100 and he never mentioned one good thing about it. 

[slimjim]

I'm not sure where the misunderstanding is but it just ain't so the efficiency of the 250 is superior!

[lovin4kids]

Coolidge - thanks for that info.  Sometimes is hard to find the same product in the same geographical temperature zone, with the same heat load to do comparisons with.  That's what makes this forum nice.

That being said, I'm using 14 cords now.  I heat the house to 72 and the barn to 48.  So if I did that with the 250, I'd hopefully use less than 14 cords.

[lovin4kids]

I wonder if they've had so many people trying to get over the learning curve that they just try to steer people away if they can? 

I'm not sure on what is meant by efficiency, either.  As Slim states, the stack temps are lower, so one would assume that more heat is going to the water than a unit with higher stack temps.  To me, that's a good measure of efficiency.  But the EPA doesn't care where the heat goes (chimney or water) as long as the particulate matter in the smoke is low.  My guess is that you could potentially have a stove that burns all the smoke and sends all the heat out the chimney!

[JTS717]

The reason I bought mine was for the efficiency.  By burning the gases you are burning more than a conventional which creates more heat with the same amount of wood.  Then you are taking more of that extra heat that was created by burning the gases and putting into the water (low stack temps).

[agriffinjd]

I wonder if they've had so many people trying to get over the learning curve that they just try to steer people away if they can? 

<snip>

Call me cynical, but I would bet they are trying to clear out their inventory of Ultimizers before 12/31/2015, as they cannot sell them after that date in the USA.  Next they'll claim the Ultimizer actually uses no wood whatsoever; it simply burns out of spite towards the EPA.

[catmann]

Lovin4kids your more then welcome to message me I am a dealer for P&M in Northern Michigan of the Lower Peninsula Im about 100 miles south of the Bridge.    I have burnt the 250 and I am currently burning the BL34-44 to see the difference in the two.  Both have advantages and disadvantages like most would expect. 

[racnruss]

I'd have to agree that the exhaust temps tell the story.  At full gasification, you can actually put your hand in the exhaust of the Optimizer and it will not burn you.  Try that with any conventional stove (and some gassers) and it'll take your skin right off.

That being said, if I didn't live in the city, I wouldn't own a gasser.   Quality vs. quantity. With a gasser; wood quality, 2 years ahead, and wood storage will save you some wood consumption.  If you have a large quantity wood and don't have close neighbors a conventional stove is easier to run.